allesok

Thanks for your understanding.

This discussion has been quite extensive and very interesting and I thank you all. Now I wish to conclude it on my side with a conclusion as I see it: The prime creator created a number of created gods, the 'Elohim. One of them resides on or near a planet or star called Kolob (which some seem to think is Sirius). He has had something to do with bringing forth human life on our Earth, either as a secondary (since he is created himself) creation or through modifying already existing life forms on our planet. Others reside elsewhere in cosmos and some of them have also had some influence on life on this Earth. What about the Anunnaki? [Google this word if you don't know it and/or read the books by Sitchin.] What about the Pleiadians? [Read the books by Marciniak.] And what about still others? The Azteks talk about Quetzalcoatl, the "feathered serpent", in ways which make you thing about an extraterrestrial visitor. The Incas talk about Viracocha, who came from the Milky Way and later returned to it. There are comparable stories in the traditions of other peoples. Yahveh is in the Bible's Hebrew text usually called "Yahveh 'Elohim" which to me indicates that he is also one of the created 'Elohim. Is he the one on/at Kolob? Or is he still another one, who influenced life on this Earth and still does so? Jesus cannot well be an incarnation of Yahveh, since there are too many contradictions between them. It rather seems that Yahveh tried to prevent the teachings of Jesus to spread over the world and has been quite successful in distorting them... To me it seems much more likely that Christ, who incarnated as Jesus, is something like the manifested love of the prime creator. Therefore I belong to Christ and to the prime creator who sent him, and not to any 'Elohim. But the subjects interests me a lot and I have from ancient and other scriptures and texts come not only to this conclusion, but to many others, which I cannot present here, since it would be far and much too long. Kind regards to you all "allesok"

Which of the many Churches?

It may make a difference if we give ourselves to belong to a "lesser" god or to the highest one, the prime creator.

There is only one "head of the gods" as Joseph Smith called him, one prime creator. But there are many gods, 'Elohim, created by Him, as Joseph Smith also said. So the question I was really aiming at from the beginning is: Is the LDS god one that was created? It looks like that, if he first was as a man who became a god. Is Allah one of these created Gods? And Yahveh? It seems to me that his Yahveh's cruelty indicates that he is a created god! I believe that the prime creator would never order to kill. And I believe that Christ is the creator god's love. According to discoveries in archaeology and the research in the history of religion from the last 3 decades, the original (pre-)Hebrew religion was polytheistic. There was a highest God, 'El 'Eliyon, who had 70 sons. One of his sons was Yahveh, who had a consort: Asherah. (See the research report: "Ein Gott allein?" = "Only one God?" with texts in German and English by various participants in a scientific colloquium in Switzerland 1993), Universitätsverlag, Freiburg (Switzerland), 1994. So 'El Elyon would be the "head of the gods" and the 'Elohim his sons.

I don't believe that God would command us to act against the words of Jesus! And how do you know that the holocaust and Al Qa'ida was/is Gods will? But which god? Al Qai'da does claim that what they do is gods will (but I do NOT believe that). Who is Allah?

That way we might just as well justify the Holocaust and Al Qa'ida...

It is true that not all these cruelties are commanded by Yahveh, but many of them are. Let's talk about them! They are what we are discussing here! If you read these Bible references, you will see that God commanded to KILL all who already lived in the Promised Land, so that the Hebrews could have the land for themselves. A THEFT OF LAND! And they should not spare even a child - and what does a CHILD have to do with conflicting religious views? - nor a woman nor an old man. This is LAND ROBBERY!!! One or two cities were prepared to negotiate with the Hebrews, but Yahveh "hardened their hearts" so that they would not, but instead enter a war in which they would all be killed. Yahveh clearly wanted EVERYONE of them DEAD! What kind of a god is that? Jesus taught: "Thou shalt not kill", "Who takes to the sword will be undone by the sword", "Love your enemies" and "What you do to others will be done unto you". But what Yahveh wanted the Hebrews to do is contrary to what Jesus taught. So how could Jesus be an incarnation of Yahveh? The relation between Jesus and Yahveh will rather be as I outlined above...

A choice of the many cruelties in the Old Testament Gen.: 34,25-29. Ex.: 12,12; 12,29-30; 15,3; 32,26-28. Lev.: 26,7-8; 26,21-22; 26,26-29. Num.: 15,32-36; 16,29-35; 16,46-49; 21,3-6; 21,24-25; 21,33-35; 31,7-10; 31,14-18; 31,31-32; 31,35 Deut: 2,32-34;. 3,1-6; 7,2-3; 9,35 13,9-10; 13,14-16; 20,10-17; 21,11-14. Joshua: 6,20-25; 8,2; 8,21-25; 8,29; 10,10-11; 10,17-40; 11,6-22. Judges: 1,4-11; 1,17; 1,25; 3,29-31; 4,14-16; 7,15-25; 8,17; 9,4-5; 9,43-45; 9,49-52; 11,30-40; 15,15-16; 18,27; 19,22-29; 20,2; 20,31-37; 20,41-48. 1 Samuel: 5,8-9; 6,19; 11,6-11; 15,3-9; 15,33; 18,7; 30,17. 2 Samuel: 5,8; 5,25; 8,1-5; 10,18; 12,31; 18,6-7; 24,10-16. 1 Kings: 20,28-30. 2 Kings: 1,9-14; 2,23-25; 5,25-27; 6,18; 10,13-25; 14,5-7; 15,16; 19,35. 1 Chron.: 20,2-3. Psalms: 137,9. Iesaiah: 13,15-18; 45,5-7; 49,25-26. Jeremiah 16,3-5. Lament.: 4,9-11. Ezekiel: 6,12-13; 9,3-6. Hosea: 13,15; 14,1.

It is written in the Old Testament that Yahveh ORDERED the Hebrews to KILL all who already lived in the promised Land, and not spare a child, a woman nor an old man. So that is clearly his doing... That is why I cannot believe that he is the prime creator, but a secondary god.

It seems that no one dares to comment to my hypothetical explanation given above, so I will again state it and then comment to it myself. 1. The first sentence in the Bible is “Bereshit bara Elohim et ha-shamayim v-et ha-arez.” It is normally translated “In the beginning God created heaven and Earth.” But Elohim is undeniably plural: “GodS”. Some, therefore, want to understand: “In the beginning the gods created haven and Earth.” That doesn’t fit, because the verb “bara” is in singular. BUT there is another solution! “Bereshit”, besides meaning “beginning”, can also mean “[the] first one”. Then it makes sense and fits with “bara” in singular: “The first one created the gods, the heavens and the Earth.” (Actually heaven is also in plural: “shamayim” and could be understood as “[the] worlds”). So understood the Elohim are secondary, created gods. The Elohim also created humans. One of them, who is called Yahveh, created Adam and Eve, from whom the Earth people come. 2. So if the LDS god was first a man, this makes me think of him as one of the Elohim and not the “prime Creator”. One of various planetary gods, and one who has to do with our planet. But why is Yahveh so exceedingly cruel? He leads the Hebrews out of Egypt to the Promised Land, where people are already living in cities. He tells them to kill everyone living there and not spare a child, a woman or an old man (this is written in the Bible!): “So that you can live in houses you didn’t build and drink from wells you haven’t dug.” What kind of a god is that? Did he really incarnate as Jesus. Jesus is not cruel, but teaches love! It rather seems that it was Yahveh who wanted Jesus killed because he was teaching truths Yahveh didn’t want people to know, hoping that the new movement would disappear after that. But it didn’t! Instead it grew stronger. It further seems that Yahveh then had a clever strategy: I will infiltrate the Church and twist it to become the way I want it. Hence there are two Christs: the real one, who incarnated in Jesus (an incarnation of the love of the prime Creator) and then a false Christ taught to us by the Church. With Church I mean the movement that was started by Paul and made manifest by the emperor Constantine, who was cruel, too, and only wanted to have this Church as a tool for his power. MY COMMENT: Hemidakota has kindly sent me a lot of information (THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR EFFORT!) in which I find something interesting that fits here. Joseph Smith translated "bereshit" as "the head of the Gods", which is quite similar to "the first one", since the first one will be the head. He then states that a council of the created Gods ('elohim, created by the head) came together to create. Even though a council itself is not derivable from the Hebrew text, it makes sense. They created the worlds, of which one is the Earth. And they "peopled" it. The latter is also not derivable from the first sentence, but from what comes later: "Let US make man in OUR image" (again: note the plural!). "Bara" means: "create, cut, carve out, beget, eat, feed, form, fashion", "bring forth". This is for me a sympathic statement in LDS teachings.

THANKS A LOT! Now I have much to read and study. Kind regards from allesok

Is that your reply to my hypothetical answer 08-28-2008, 01:48 PM? Every now and then we are given a statement that these are things we cannot understand. Which is a neat way to sweep difficult questions under the carpet... Scriptures? If they were not so many and in important parts so contradictory... Of course: "OUR scripture is right and the others are wrong!" That is what everyone says. And many have different understandings of even the same scripture. So WHO the is right? How can we judge? By common sense and by listening to our heart more than to our brain... That also means: Not too quickly take it literally as it is written, but try to sense between the lines.

If it isn't too long... or maybe a link to a webpage that has it.

A link to a source in the Internet telling how Joseph Smith showed that.