chewmen

Yeah... I meant that's not what he was trying to do, sorry about the confusion. :$

I agree, and that's what I'm trying to say, His reward was not that He saved them, but merely that they were Saved. Glory went to the Father.

In my opinion, we have to be careful in saying reward; and to whom. Especially now that the nature of the Godhead is much clearer and much better understood. More or less what I'm saying is that Christ's "reward" so to speak was not that He got to save them (and therefore reap all the credit) but rather that his brothers and sisters were now able to be Saved, period. His true reward came in Glorifying the Father, by doing what was done first by the Father, by Loving. Moses 1:39 states that our human progression and eventual deification *is* His glory. Without His Love for us, God has no Glory. We are entirety of the manifestation of His Glory. What I understand you to be arguing is that without a reason to Love, nobody would do it. If the Truest form of love (that of God's) is concerned simply with increasing His own infinite Glory, why should he let us choose? But even still, God allows free choice despite the fact that He will lose many souls. And if agency is merely a requirement of the Universe for growth, why wouldn't God just make sure it was really easy to choose the right thing? There must needs be opposition in all things. The Lord said this. Why must there needs be? Because God wants us to be all that we can become. God's Glory is that He wants us to be just like Him. He wants everyone to have His glory. He wants everyone to be all that they can become. And the only way they can become like Him--is to choose it themselves. Just like God never commanded Jesus to die for us. Jesus chose to. Of course this is all how I understand things to the best of my ability so far. If I could say that at 18 I came even 1 shred of the masterpiece of the Universe's truth it would be justice for me to be struck down... I hope what I did say makes sense though.

Good day my fellows, I was just wanting to discuss the idea of Stoicism, and maybe touch on Pantheism. Personally, I feel as though Stoic theology has many penetrating truths which describe God very well, (although full on Stoic thought is ludicrous in its materialism)... I think the idea of doing something not for our own desires... is a very deep truth. As is such with the true concept of Charity; the Savior's true love is an act of Stoicism. It's different from human, fallen love because Christ had no benefit in helping us. Absolutely none. We're all unprofitable servants, and we're all bad investments. When we aid the homeless or feed the hungry, a part of it may be stoic at least for some people; but far too many people are saying "I'm gonna pay tithing because then I'll have some extra blessings" or "I'm going to feed this hungry guy because I know that my good deeds will come back to me later... in the form of wonderful new blessings!". I'm sorry, but I find that so wrong. The reason we follow God is not because He will bless us if we do. Heck, the Devil can bless us with all kinds of temporal things. The reasoning for following God is simply an act of agency. A choice to love God. We do His will because we Love Him! We want to do what He says because He's breathtaking! We want to love Him because of everything He has done for us! I don't care how much we suffer on this earth, God organized us out of chaos. We as spirits had nothing before Him. (We may have even been in a state of eternal pain and death). He chose to Love us! And create a Plan for us to become His children. AND to inherit everything that He has; which is Everything! Sorry, I always tirade on matters such as this. But yeah. So my question is, what place does stoicism have in the church, and why do the higher reasons of motivation often go ignored or glued over in doctrinal teaching? Oh and for as my thoughts on Pantheism... I have a firm belief that Joseph Smith was right when he elaborated that even God has to obey the laws of the Universe. However I also believe that because He is perfect; and does. That he is One with the Universe. That is, God is not above Mercy, Love, or Justice. They were not His creation. With these tools God created order and is bringing to pass the Eternal life and Immortality of us. But because He is in perfect unison with the Universe, God is love, he is mercy, and he is justice. I'm not sure about all the details of Pantheism, but I want to know why there is such a strong opposition to it both in the New Testament times and in Modern days? This mostly stems from the poem St. Kevin and the blackbird posted earlier. Also, I checked it out in the Bible Dictionary: What are your thoughts guys and gals?