Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - - I have slowly reread it. If you have a point to make...make it. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - - - OK.... I apologize...I did miss that thought about two books...one book of life....one LAMB'S book of life...but I don't follow the comment that all who ever lived are in that book of life...as it says ones whose names are not in it are cast into the lake of fire....so you are saying NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire??? That's not what Rev. 21:8 says. I think I missed something here... As far as your revelations clearing things up... "For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand." Alma 5:58 This says the opposite of what you just suggested. So the names are also interchangeable is the idea.......? ? ? Uh...that's what I was saying....! Pilgrim2

- - - - - - -Yes....where people will reside HAS been revealed.... it is either the lake of fire (name not in book), or the new heaven and earth (name in book). Sorry you don't seem to see what the text says. "Whosoever was not found written in the lamb's book of life was cast into the lake of fire." and... " "the city (those who enter into are)... they which are written in the lamb's book of life." I'm not interpreting the text.... I'm just citing it to you. I just noticed that this is more a direct statement of access to the CITY than the new earth. Hmmm It is really an all-or-none option, isn't it, in terms of location? Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - - - - - I realize I went from discussing issues to editorializing ... and I am sorry. But I simply am not seeing the answers suggested to my question as valid....(where will telestial glory people be at the end) The answer given to my question was that the telestial glory people (at the end) are in some other dimension or address, yet somehow part of the new heaven or earth since their name is in the book. THAT does not fit the picture of Revelation 21. To invent this other place is to say Rev. 21:24-27 is a lie.... i.e. you can have your name in the book and NOT be a part of the new heaven or new(celestial) earth. If your answer requires me to reject the Bible... it is not a valid answer to me. The text clearly presents an either/or... and neither fits with the LDS view..... thanks for trying to blend them... It is interesting to me that you see me as unwilling to "see".....and I see it the opposite. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - -In the interest of not sidetracking the thread... I'll pass on that last comment. But as far as not accepting the explanation... perhaps you can spell it out for me again. WHERE will telestial glory people be at the end...when earth enjoys a celestial glory....will it be the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) or new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:24-27) ? It is an either/or... name in book/name not in book. ? ? Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - Since you have already cited me for breaking a rule... I will pass on that question. What I have pointed out from the 4 standard works is contradictions, (thus far unanswered) which I am willing to hear answers to, if they exist...and I have also stated that I do not believe God contradicts himself. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - We can agree on what you have said about anything less than God's presence being hell. But what I see in Rev. 21 and 22 is GOD's PRESENCE everywhere in the new heaven and earth(21:3). If that is the case, it will NOT be at all hellish, but glorious. D & C 76:89 says that even for the telestial glory people, the glory surpasses all understanding. Sounds like a very GLORIOUS.... uh HELL?. ??? You want me to believe its going to be wonderful but terrible? RIGHT. But we already established that the earth will have a celestial glory so the tel glory cannot be in the new heaven or earth. WHERE ARE THEY? My concern is that the prophet has invented ideas about the afterlife...and may also have misled people on issues that may "damn" their soul...not to a lower level, but to hell. Matt. 7:14 says MOST people will end up with "destruction" as their destiny.... that is not what LDS teach! The reason no one can tell me why telestial glory does not FIT with Rev. 21-22... is because it is a lie...it does not exist. If you have been lied to about "salvation" issues of destiny...you may have been lied to about the issue of requirements....that is what false prophets are up to... It is NOT a minor issue. God does not doubletalk as Smith did regarding the afterlife. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - - - - - There is also "tons" of evidence for karma/ reincarnation/virgins given to men in the afterlife for being suicide terrorists.... IF you choose to believe in those particuclar revelations. Tons.... does not cut it. If I must turn the Bible into a fairy tale in order to buy the LDS view.... I'll not do it. It should be the reverse, because the Bible has proven itself (via fulfilled prophecies). I do not believe in a God who doubletalks... the LDS view in essence is saying that one plus one equals two and also three or more. Sorry... I'm not buying that. You folks claim to have 4 standard works but any time your modern revelations contradict the Bible... it is the Bible that is tossed out. That is very dangerous....to put it mildly. There can be no other options than name in book and name not in book...and therefore there are no other destinations than stated... lake of fire... new heaven and earth... You can pussy-foot around it...but that is what the Bible says. The funny thing is that some of your OWN revelations deny the 3 degrees of glory teaching... I've studied this out.... this is what I found. II Nephi 15:34-35 kingdom of God or an awful, filthy hell II Nephi 2:27 liberty and eternal life or captivity and eternal death Mosiah 2:39-41 never-ending happiness or never-ending torment Mosiah 5:5, 15 heaven, everlasting life,or under the wrath of God in eternal torment Mos. 15:21-27 redeemed, with God, or perishing in sins Alma 42:16 happiness or punishment (ETERNAL) Helaman 12:26 everlasting life or everlasting damnation Note that D&C 20:9, 27:5 refers to the Book of Mormon as the FULLNESS of the gospel. This makes "3 heavens" a significant omission! DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS D&C 29:27-28, 43-44 eternal life or eternal damnation D&C 43:25,33, 63:49, 54 eternal life or unquenchable fire D&C 101:65-67 Celestial glory vs. unquenchable fire (Note... this key passage was written AFTER the original major revelation of the teaching of 3 heavens... so which is it?) PEARL OF GREAT PRICE Moses 6:29 and 59 kingdom of heaven or death and hell Moses 7:57-67 fullness of joy or chains of darkness 1 No Bible verses teach more than 2 destinations for mankind. Its consistent story is the traditional heaven/hell, although it could more precisely be referred to as hell followed by the lake of fire vs. the new heaven and earth as the two choices (There will be free access between the new heaven and earth, and all have access to the throne of God. See Rev. 21:24-27) 2. The Book of Mormon does not teach the 3 heavens theory. 3. Nor does the Pearl of Great Price teach three heavens, but two destinations. 4. While the Doctrine and Covenants does refer to the 3 heavens in 3 places... other places in D & C say the opposite. And one main revelation (D&C 88) was a part of a larger revelation, a part of which was proven to be false. Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 380-381. Joseph Smith said he saw in a vision of the CELESTIAL kingdom “the (current) 12 apostles of the Lamb who are now upon the earth.” Did these apostles ever inherit the Celestial kingdom? History of the Church later records the apostasy and final excommunication of 5 of the 12 apostles referred to in this vision: Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20 Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528 William McLellin - Vol. 3:31 William Smith - Vol. 7:483 Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284 SO>>>>>it would appear that to gain celestial glory....you can be excommunicated.... or not. If THIS was a false vision....perhaps the whole of Smith's 3 degrees of glory "revelation" was also false. Pilgrim2

Semantics? If you say name in book...what it SAYS is new heaven and earth.... N O T some other address!!! You can say it is NOT new heaven and earth for them (tel glory) ...but the Bible says it IS if the name is in the book. Come on....you can't have it both ways. Thanks for a lesson in doubletalk. It is obvious to me that those other 2 "glories" are make believe. You can try to fit them in-between the "name in book" and "name not in book"...but it just doesn't work. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - Yes.... the whole point is that SPECIFIC LOCATIONS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.... if your name is in the book....it will be the new heaven and celestialized earth (point of agreement on this). If your name is NOT in the book...it will be the lake of fire. You simply need to tell me... are the telestial glory people among those whose names ARE or ARE NOT in the book?:)

[because Gods will dwell here, the whole must be pure. An angel made this point very clear to Enoch: "Teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, . . . for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name" (Moses 6:57). In this light, John's concluding statement can be appreciated: "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (v. 27, KJV). - - - - - - - - Thank you for the lengthy explanation, but my basic question was not answered...because the man you quoted was not addressing my question. If I missed it....spell it out simply for me. To repeat: D & C 76:112 indicates that Telestial glory people will NOT be seeing God or Christ. We have no gates in this city between the new heaven and earth...people going from one to the other... and statements that God is in both the new heaven and earth with his people (21:1-4). Since the choices are name in book or name not in book .... where will the telestial glory people be at this time?....or ANY time? The earth will (according to D&C 88) have a celestial glory... so where will tel. glory people be? Pilgrim 2

Hello again.... I think one of my posts got lost in the shuffle... anyway... here goes: - - - - - - - It was suggested that the 3 levels (tel, ter, cel) are all a part of the new heaven and earth in Rev. 21. BUT the problem is that there is OPEN ACCESS between those places in 21:24-27, including access to the throne of God. BUT...D&C 76:112 says those in telestial glory cannot come to where God and Christ are. So we have a contradiction. D&C 88:18 shows the new earth be or have a celestial glory and the following verses say those who cannot abide that glory do not get it...but get another kingdom. There IS (according to Revelation) no other "kingdom".... it is name in book or name not on book. ??? My thought also is that there is no TIME when the 3 levels could be "open for business"... Alma 40:11-13 says it is two options when one dies... D&C 101:65-66 and Matt. 13:49 say it is two options when Christ returns, and the verses in Revelation (20 and 21) say it is two options at the Great White Throne judgment. One can TRY to make "two" (new heaven and earth) into "three"... but the two are intereconnected so as to be in effect one... and that DOES make for a contradiction. I'm not harping on this to be ornery. I am convinced that if Smith got this wrong he probably got the requirements wrong too. It is a BIG issue. Pilgrim 2

- - - - - -It does not allow both scriptures to be true. Those in telestial glory will NOT have access to the upper levels or the throne of God according to D&C 76:112....and I think you knew that. The Bible says all in the new heaven/earth WILL have access to the throne of God. You can't have it both ways. D&C 88:21,38 suggest those in terrestrial glory will not be in celestial glory... D&C 88:2 says it is those who are sanctified who inherit the celestial "world"...and verse 21 says those who are NOT sanctified must inherit another kingdom. D&C 88:17-19 also says the EARTH itself will be sanctified and have a celestial glory and be crowned with the glory/presence of GOD THE FATHER. (I understood terrestrial glory did not include that...they are only visited by the Son) Rev. 21 says it is a new heaven and EARTH that are open and together. If the new EARTH is "celestial glory" .... where are the Terrestrial glory people going to be? And where are the telestial glory people going to be? Either ALL the "glories" have access to the throne as the Bible indicates in Rev. 21:24-27, or they are all separated... but it is not BOTH! This is another issue... God has declared Christ's name to be the name above all names...and every knee to bow to HIM...so I think you've got the glories backwards... Christ's should be celestial and God's terrestrial. OK... that was more tongue-in-cheek than anything...but I do feel the distinguishing of them is VERY artificial. To be in Christ's presence is to be in God's presence, and vice versa. "He that hath seen me hath seen the father." They are so close that it speaks of both of them on one throne... compare Rev. 22:3, 4:6,9, 5:6,13, 7:10,17 Interesting, isn't it? Pilgrim 2

- - - - - - - - Hi...thanks for the interesting comments. I like the baseball analogy if we carry it one step further and allow for enough seating that everyone that wants can be right up CLOSE... as that parallels to the access to the throne of God in the new heaven in earth, for all that get there. The problem is that in your new revelations... (to continue the analogy) it is 3 different ball games....3 worlds with restrictions on going to the other two. This is not a ball game... it is ETERNITY. Don't downplay that! I, for one, am not going to miss the right ball game because of ignoring some "inexact" words. I certainly agree with you that we need to take ALL that the scriptures say... but if I do that and include the LDS writings... I'm left with unresolved contradictions....which I have spelled out earlier in this thread. I do not find that to be the case with the picture given for the afterlife in the Bible... so I will stick with learning ALL the Bible says about it. It may be that you feel Christians are teaching a share-and-share alike heaven. We don't. We will all get varying rewards... it is just that they do not involve the DESTINATION. Even in hell... I'd say the purpose of the Great White Throne judgment is to look at the works and assign degrees of punishment...as other scriptures teach that. But the Bible consistently teaches TWO basic destinations. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - I do not see it as a STATE of glory (a LOCATION, if you will) as LDS do... but as the passage states, a kind of BODY..... and WHAT I am does not necessarily = WHERE I will be. The bigger problem is that Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27 state that either your name is in the book or it isn't... that is TWO options. One = lake of fire.... the other sounds JUST like Celestial glory to me (read it - - open access in this heaven)... and I can find no indication of any telestial or terrestrial WORLD in those passages, because so far, no one has been able to tell me how there can be any other options besides "name in book" and "name not in book". The Biblical picture is one big happy new heaven and connected new earth... not 3 worlds. Pilgrim 2

- - - - -I know your position. I asked how this fits with the name not in book (lake of fire) and name in book picture of TWO connected places ....a new heaven and earth, with OPEN ACCESS between them and OPEN ACCESS to the throne of God. THAT sounds like Celestial glory to me (with a paradise East and paradise West element)... and I can picture the lake of fire being like outer darkness.... but..... THE OTHER TWO LOCATIONS ARE MISSING from Rev. 20-21! To repeat..... What other OPTION can there be besides name in book and name not in book ? ? ? ? ? Pilgrim 2

I know of no one other than LDS who assign any meaning to that word...telestial. Pilgrim2

- - - - - - - -I have yet to see the TIME PERIOD during which the 3 degrees of glory will be in existence. Alma 40 thru 42 indicates that when one DIES... it is just TWO options.... and Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27 indicate that at the Great White Throne judgment... there will be one of two fates... name in book - new heaven and earth, with access to God's very throne.... or name not in book - - lake of fire. This is in agreement with D&C 101:65.... it is in agreement with Mosiah 5:5 (never-ending torment), and D&C 29 29:43-44. Alma 42 indicates that THIS LIFE (vs. 10-13) is the time when men prepare for the next. 41:15 says the restoration only condemns sinners more, and does not justify them, which suggests there will not be any getting out of hell and going to a level of glory. Helaman 12:26 also presents just two options... I am not ignoring your scriptures....the problem is that the deeper I dig, the more contradictory they become, as I am also aware of D&C 76,88 101, etc. Mrs. D

It's called hyperbole and I have not issue with John using it. I can have a Lamborghini Diablo and I can have a Suburu Outback, comparing the two I can call the Suburu a piece of scrap metal, it's still a fully functioning and decent car on its own right. There is precedent for using really strong language to get the point across such as in D&C 19, namely, " wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory." There is also the possibility that John wasn't trying to teach the nature of the three degrees of glory and was using the simpler Heaven vs. Hell dynamic to make his point. Kinda like when Jesus was accosted on the issue of marriage in the resurrection he didn't go into a dissertation on priesthood authority but rather answered the question simply (but not completely) and moved on to the heart of the issue that being the truthfulness of resurrection. - - - - - - I'm confused about the mechanics of his site... the above was in my e-mail, but not here at the site. ?? ANYWAY.... will respond to this above...from Dravin. When "glory that surpasses understanding" = wrath of God, burning, wailing, gnashing of teeth, a furnace of fire, eternal torment, and a lake of fire... you have lost me. With this kind of interpretation, I can EASILY turn the Book of Mormon into Alice in Wonderland. I thought you folks took your scriptures more seriously than THAT. You have not just read a doctrine of eternal marriage into scriptures that don't teach it.... you have turned black into white.....two into three or more. Sorry, I just can't buy that. But thanks for your attempt. Mrs. D

- - - - - - -It's NOT an answer if one looks at what the scriptures SAY. D&C 76 presents even the Lowest (telestial) world as a place the glory of which surpasses all understanding (76:89) This does NOT fit with "lake of fire", burning, gnashing of teeth, etc. Mosiah 5:5 calls it never-ending torment and the WRATH OF GOD. This is anything BUT "glory".! ! ! The uncertainty here is more than troublesome. I've had another LDS man tell me the divisions were different (the good destination includes all 3 glories) and also been given your answer. Neither fits what the Bible says. You'd think the modern revelations would clear this up rather than muddy it up. It is more than troublesome in that one who can't tell the story right about what is beyond this life should not be trusted to tell you how to gain the good place(s) beyond this life. Mrs. D

- - - - - - Perhaps I didn't hit the right button...when choices of faith were given, LDS and Christian were lumped together....so I chose that option. I am Christian, but very interested in LDS doctrine (as I stated in an earlier post) for gaining ability to witness to others (including ones in my family). I will say that I have appreciated the open-ness of this forum. I am aware that D&C 101:65-66 is a parallel to Matthew 13's parable of wheat and tares... (also, two crops). So the point is? I am willing to hear any explanation LDS have to present.... I just haven't heard any yet that explain the contradictions. How can there be 3 or more options if it all boils down to "name in book" or "name not in book" as REv. chapters 20-21 say? Mrs. D

No, but you may be filled with a deep sense of regret when you realize what you chose not to accept. You should continue the discussions with missionaries and ask them to explain these things to you. This is not the best venue to learn sacred truths or to make eternal decisions. - - - - - - - - - I can recall asking missionaries questions about the 3 heavens as I have asked here... and they (being "youngers" rather than "elders") didn't have answers. I understand their training is somewhat limited. I thought someone HERE might be able to explain why your scriptures teach BOTH the 2 destinations-ONLY idea (Rev. 20:15 and 21:24-27) and Doctrine and Covenants 101:65-66.... and ALSO the D&C 76 3 degrees of glory. No answers? No wonder this person is not "getting" the 3 degrees of glory thing. Neither am I.... if there are no answers to this seeming contradiction. Pilgrim 2

- - - - - - - - If you are asking ME the answer to this DISagreement... I would have to say that that is the question that I have posed. I posted above quite a few scriptures that suggest 2 destinations only... and you quote me one that says 3 (plus)... You tell me why this doubletalk...???? I am not LDS. Mrs. D

- - - - - - - -I AM aware of what all of the 4 standard works teach. I simply see contradictions between them. For a start, look at D & C 101:65-66.... this was given AFTER the D&C 76 revelation....yet points to 2 options. See also D&C 29:27... and Mosiah 5:5. Then there's II Nephi 2:27 and 15:34-35, and Mosiah 2:39-41, and Alma 42:16 and Helaman 12:26... I have more. You have suggested that the "name in book" includes all 3 levels of glory, but your view makes divisions between them. Rev. 21:24-27 does not. (Open gates). Rev. 21 describes a new heaven and earth (two places) with open access between them, but the LDS view is Cel/ter/tel (3) plus subdivisions of celestial glory. It just doesn't add up to me....when you consider that Matt. 7:14 indicates that most folks will not be getting a good destiny...and the alternate to "life" is destruction (not a lesser level of glory). John 14:6 is speaking of the FATHER'S HOUSE.... I always thought that the Father's house is where the FATHER lives. (that would account for Celestial glory....but not necessarily the others). (I am sure others have pointed out to you that the wording of I Cor. 15 refers to variations in bodies, not geographical destinations, and that one does not necessarily include the other.) Pilgrim2