juxtaposed

sounds to me that either rider is attempting to disqualify lds as mormons by having the 'exclusions' to being a christian that he thinks wirthlin is claiming. seems like a whole lot of splitting hairs and semantics really. i wouldn't call someone less mormon, baptist, christian, or jew, just because they act and believe a certain way that may not be in concordance with a preconceived notion, either spoken or written. honestly what is the point of the op? a christian is anyone who proclaims to be such...or am i wrong? obviously wirthlins writings don't mean anything to many non-mormon christians. this being the case, why would it bother you what his opinion is about what a true christian really is. the way in which they practice has no bearing on any definition of a christian or how i treat their personal beliefs. this is why i hate hearing that i am not christian when i have the belief system that i do. and furthermore, why would any lds person apologize for believing that god has indeed spoken to us in our day and has revealed what is necessary to be saved according to the true gospel of jesus christ. so if you HAVE to question what we think it takes to be a christian because of an article that you immediately question the legitimacy thereof, it seems that you have not only another agenda, but are questioning for argument sake. at least that's how it comes across to me.

i was not raised in the church, and i know for a fact that living without the truth because of ignorance didn't foster the best of situations in a great many instances of my life. having the guidance of the spirit and the gospel, including modern revelation, provides for a much fuller chance at a life with purpose and true meaning. for me it's a no brainer oh and for what it's worth, there's nothing wrong with the question or poll answers, why complicate it with too many choices?

this argument to me is one of the weakest i have ever heard in an effort to 'disprove' the bom. it is such a non issue to me, but for some it is irrefutable proof i guess.

funny that others did similar yet you take the effort to discuss mine only. seems like a great many posts here have a lot of conjecture and opinion included. you have a lot of work on your hands if you want to point all those out too.

because the details are what is at question. hence the discussing thereof

i really don't have the slightest clue. just another random bit of info i've collected

i have also heard that the 'head' that was cut off was only a portion, and that the lower half that was attached sputtered a bit. gruesome topic. lol

hi jorsen, you know, this is a really hard topic to discuss for a couple of reasons. first off i want to explain that i have been in your exact situation. in my case i was baptized at 18, went on mission, married a wonderful girl in the temple, have two kids, and it's 10 years later. a few years ago i found many of the things online that you allude to have read. in fact i bet the website you said you posted on, i've been to. i also am a very logical person, and it's hard for me to fall back on spiritual things if some logical piece of information is in the forefront. i almost left the church and ruined my life because of those things that i had read. i won't go into how you should go about figuring out your next move because the previous post was great at that. what i really want you to know is that i've been there. i know the despair you are feeling, and that you just want to follow the truth and make sure you are not being duped. i know that it feels like your on a precipice and it is really disheartening. what i can tell you is that some people can take a simple truth and distort it to fit their agenda. it doesn't matter what it is, someone can make something innocent look like an alterior motive. the point is, is that the gospel doesn't exist with logic. if it did, the eternities would be easily explained and the gospel wouldn't be hard to follow. perfection would be so logical it would be easy. the gospel is a trial of faith. you were baptized for a reason, but no one said enduring to the end was easy. faith requires constant nourishment and attention. the gospel is true. it took almost losing everything to get that. and my love for the church, the restoration, and even more important, the atonement has grown in ways that i never realized it could. knowledge comes after the trail of your faith. don't let this opportunity to grow in enlightenment slip away because it becomes difficult. you will be rewarded through your dilligence. i promise. i've been there, and i can honestly say i've never been happier.

i don't know about anybody else, but before i was baptized (at 18) i was fine with water...but i am absolutely terrified of water in every way shape and form, i'm even scared of the massive percentages of water that make up my carbon life form....every time i sweat i just shake with fear. what an odd thing to be scared of. seems like a monty python superstition to think that el diablo lives in water and hence we should be scared of it. if that were the case i doubt the polynesian islands would ever have an lds presence. wonder where that got started.

any genuine question regarding the gospel wouldn't be able to be misconstrued as being anti anything. as others have noted anytime there is someone ready to bash any particular topic of our belief system don't have any reasonable intention to discuss such topics to come to an amicable conclusion, it's an attempt to tear down and destroy. i don't discuss this stuff with those types of people, just not worth it.

absolute is definately (ack spelling) hard to define for the simple fact that it can be a relative term in this sense. so as far as context goes let me give you an example that happened to me. i am a convert, and was baptized at 18. and while i had been going to church since 16 and knew it was true, i had bad cold feet the night before the big day. so i played a conference cd before bed and started to wonder if i should really go through with it. after listening to a talk, and then a hymn, i had to pray for guidance. when i did, before i could finish the sentence asking if i should get baptized, i stopped and couldn't continue. i felt like, it may sound silly, but that i was being hugged from every angle and this weird pressure just enveloped me. but at the same time it was the most amazing feeling of love and warmth. it brought tears to my eyes and i knew what heavenly father wanted of me. to me, that was absolute in every sense of the meaning. not sure if that helps. especially since every person can have such differing degrees of experiences. one of the most faithful people i know told me that he's never had an experience of the same kind, but the less powerful moments with the spirit speak to him with as large of a voice, yet is just as meaningful and full of truth as was that moment for me.