BookofMormonLuvr
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Posts posted by BookofMormonLuvr
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True; though we have no idea of what transpired between the time Corianton left and the time Alma preached the sermon that is now part of Alma 42.
Alma himself notes the effect Corianton's behavior had on rest of the Zoramites' perception of the Church.
We can't take back what is already there and making one person take possession of the image of the church is slightly unfair. We do stupid stuff. If people are so unmerciful that they can't see past our mortal failings they probably weren't prepared to hear in the first place. So while it is important to be a good example, we cannot place an onerous burden on individuals to be perfect in order to maintain some imaginary myth of a perfect church with perfect people.
Did that make any sense?
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On the weekends he is there with your family, I think its ok for your husband to stay home from church with his son. Family comes first, always. He can do things at home to teach his son about the LDS faith. With lots of love, time and maturity, your stepson will come around.
Good point. You don't have to go to a building to have church- there is no rule against church at home on those weekends. You could agree not to take him to the building, but still let him know there will be church at home. Sings some songs, prepare a lesson. Basically, FHE on Sunday morning.
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Can't tell you exactly what the caricature is they are talking about but it is probably that Mormons are perfect people by some metric, or somehow more 'perfect' than others.
As far as the other stuff they are talking about is that the cultural expectation to be perfect (aka super Mormon) is the reason Mormons suffer from the depression levels they do (I've seen claims its higher than would be expected but I don't know the skinny on the truth of that). So basically the reason you feel horrible for not being this ideal Mormon who can't do everything 'good' cranked up to 11 and have perfect children isn't because the Gospel expects it of you, but because the culture of the church, your neighbors, expect it of you.
I really like this post, but it begs the question...
Why does the "culture of the church, your neighbors" expect it of you? What is it about the LDS Church that the members expect such "cranked up to 11" perfection out of other members? How did they arrive at such high expectations of each other?
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I group of Restorationist Saints (RLDS who did not follow the Community of Christ and their changes) has a t-shirt that says..
"I Agree With Abinadi"
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I'm just throwing out a thought, but if there's actually been a child born and this happened a long time ago, then it could be that your having left the child without any father figure or financial support for years upon years could be seen as an exacerbating factor.
EDIT: Just saw your other post where you state this happened on your mission. Excommunication is mostly for the benefit of the member, but also partly to protect the good name of the Church.
If rumors have been swirling around your old area that a Mormon missionary got a girl pregnant, and a child was born that was and continues to be proof of that indiscretion--to protect its own good name, the Church has a much stronger interest in letting it be known (even belatedly) that you were excommunicated when it found out what you had done.
Alma had a similar situation with one of his sons. I like what he said...
Alma 42:29-31
And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.
And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.
I would hope we can extend the same mercy to our brother here. Alma didn't cast his son out or place a burdensome rock of punishment on his back, he simply reminded him of his duty and the consequence of unrepented sin, and then sent him back into the "good fight". Our brother here will remember his sin each time he writes a child-support payment or picks up the kid for a weekend visit, we don't need to do it for him.
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Another idea:
Find a non-denominational church with a Saturday night meeting. Say you will take him to that if he agrees to go to Sacrament meeting the next day.
BTW, he has been coached by his mother.. 12 yo don't come up with this...
Also told his father that if he took him home he would feel like he is choosing church over the extra time he could be spending with him.
on their own.
Or you could just tell the mother you will start taking him to the local Kingdom Hall since she doesn't want him attending "Mormon" meetings.
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Good luck...
Focus more on your relationship with your wife (who it appears is standing with you) then on any punishment meted out, and step up to the plate if the kid is yours. If you do those two things you will be alright. You have repented and are trying to make things right, so you are alright in my book. :)
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Are you a former member?
Interesting question... My answer would be "Yes" and "No"
Yes, in that in LDS thinking I would be a "former member" because years ago I was baptized into and attended the LDS Church.
No, in that I believe I belong to the Church of Christ that was organized in 1830, so I don't see myself as a "former member" but a current member of the church. Just as I see you as a member of the Church of Christ. The same goes for my brothers and sisters in the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), the Church of Jesus Christ, the various branches of RLDSism, and most others baptized by the line of authority coming from John the Baptist through Oliver and Joseph... (though I do have a problem with those churches that give women the Priesthood and those practicing plural marriage).
Needless to say- My view of who constitutes "the church" is has grown considerably over the past few years. I love you all as my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
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Wow, I hope I chop this up right...
Please explain your understanding and definitions of the following:1. The law (as it relates to baptism)
I believe baptism is a necessary ordinance for the living, who have learned Gospel and commandments of God.2. Covenant (as it relates to baptism)
Baptism is a promise a believer makes to the Lord that he will do his best to live the commandments the Lord has given, in exchange the person is adopted as a son or daughter of Jesus Christ and receives all the blessings that entails.3. The ordinance (as it relates to baptism)
You are baptized by immersion by one holding ministerial authority from the Restoration line after being called by name and hearing the words "_________ __________ having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (3 Nephi 11:25)4. The doctrine of baptism
Same as "1.", I would assume. Maybe I am not understanding your question?5. The blessings (benedictions) specific to baptism
See "2."6. The punishment (maledictions) specific to not being baptized or fulfilling baptism. Is there a difference in maledictions for not being baptized from not fulfilling baptism?
If you are taught the Gospel and commandments and refuse baptism, you are in perpetual sin and in need of repentance. If you die in such a condition, you can assume God will not be happy with your disobedience.7. According to the law – what is the meaning and purpose of a proxy?
I have never heard it mentioned in scriptural law. The modern english definition is..."prox·y   
[prok-see] Show IPA
–noun, plural prox·ies.
1.
the agency, function, or power of a person authorized to act as the deputy or substitute for another.
2.
the person so authorized; substitute; agent."
8. Does the Book of Mormon – in your view – speak of a covenantal promise linking the generations spoken of in the Book of Mormon and again to the generations of our day and time?
Why don't you give me an example of where, in your opinion, it is found. It will make it easier to answer this one. I believe that God's Covenants extend to all generations, I don't however believe our actions determine the salvation of another human being and I don't believe their actions influence mine (except that I may pick up bad habits that lead me away from the Gospel)Articles of Faith 1:2
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
Mormon 9:27
O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.
9. What is the meaning of a “remnant”?
rem·nant   [rem-nuhnt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a remaining, usually small part, quantity, number, or the like.
2.
a fragment or scrap.
3.
a small, unsold or unused piece of cloth, lace, etc., as at the end of a bolt.
4.
a trace; vestige: remnants of former greatness.
Finally do you believe there are examples of proxies involved in covenants in the Book of Mormon – directly or indirectly?
No. Except Jesus Christ paying the death price for our sins- He being the only one that could do it...Alma 34:9-12
For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.
Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
I ask these questions because it does appear that the primary problem is one of understanding of terms. I would like to make sure I understand your terms before I begin to discuss the concept of “fullness” of the Gospel and how that relates to covenant and law of baptism as clearly taught in the Book of Mormon to the ancient peoples concerning the temple that was often spoken of using symbolism in ancient Hebrew poetic formats.
The Traveler
I tried to make it legible, oh well- hopefully it is understandable.
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I appreciate your opinion, captainmoroniRM.
This line strikes me a contradictory...
The scriptures you quoted in Nephi are right. Where there is no law, there is no punishent. Someone who dies without knowing the gospel will receive no punishment for not having not been baptized or not obeyed all the commandments of God. But those who died without knowledge of the Gospel do not simply get a free pass into heaven.
You say they won't be punished, but then go on to say they would be not permitted into the Kingdom of God- which is the supreme punishment.
Feeding off another discussion...
Why do you not take the Sacrament in proxy each week for the dead then? It stands to reason, since their agency doesn't end, that they would need to partake somehow, having been made members of the church through proxy baptism earlier on.
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I'm formulating a response, but between watching my wife play lego star wars, talking to an old friend on facebook, texting another old friend in a different language.......it's taking a while lol. Stay tuned!
No problem. I understand the havoc of life. Take your time.
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I am not going to continue this discussion, it is not my intention to cause contention. Apparently, any observation I may have contrary what is generally accepted will interpreted as contention, so I will pick my discussions more carefully- and this one is not worth it. I do believe, however, that it is healthy for members of any church, and the church itself, to discuss potential issues within their ranks instead of pretending everything is rosy. I will leave it at that. Hopefully, some of your fellow LDS members who see what I am poorly trying to say will speak up, I am sure they will have more credit with you then this crazy apostate. :)
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The LDS Church actually encourages participation on places like Facebook...
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BookofMormonLuvr, what is your take on 1 Cor. 15:29? Yes it is in the Bible not the Book of Mormon but the Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible (I'm thinking mostly 1 Nephi 13). I can think of one easy way (and there are probably more but one comes to mind first) to reconcile the difference but I'm curious what your take on it is.
Thank you, Dravin. Let's see what it says...
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
The first thing I notice is the change in pronoun in this verse compared to the other verses in the chapter. Whereas, Paul speaks of "us", "our", "me", "you"- in this verse he speaks of "they" being baptized for the dead. Why is he not including himself or his hearers with those being baptized for the dead?
Later, in verse 32, Paul makes this interesting observation in similar language...
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?
Does this make fighting with beasts an ordinance needed to redeem the dead?
The unclear nature of this verse stands in stark contrast to the plain teachings of the Book of Mormon I quoted in post #28- In my humble opinion.
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I sorry if I have offended you in some way Loudmouth_Mormon, I hope that our disagreements over certain issues don't cause contention between us.
I think the lack of meaningful interaction amoung LDS members outside of church sanctioned events may lead to a sense of emotional loneliness/isolation that may lead them to seek out such groups. Also, I believe the emphasis on perfection and excelling at everything you do may play against the average LDS person who fails to live up to what they believe is expected of them. People need to know that it is OK to fail or be mediocre at some things. We can't be great at everything.
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So, because temples aren't mentioned again, we are to assume they weren't used for their given purpose?
The reason temples were not used for work for the dead before Christ was because the work wasn't needed until after He bridged the gap between Paradise and Prison, and people in the Spirit World came to accept Christ and need ordinances.
So, here they have a temple, and now the gap had been bridged, what makes the most sense? That they did something not related to temple worship in the temples or that they simply changed their worship within the temple to accomodate Jesus' atonement, resurrection, and bridging the gap between Paradise and Prison?
How many times did Mormon say he could only write a hundreth part of the things they did and said? How many times did they say there were things unlawful for man to utter? That points to temple ordinances. All indications are there, even if they didn't outline it step by step.
I believe they performed ordinances for the dead in their temples just as we do in ours. It doesn't make sense any other way. Joseph Smith not only restored the Book of Mormon, but also restored many of the things they could not speak about because of their sacredness. We know this because we are counseled not to speak of them either. It is not lawful for us to speak of temple work outside of the temple to the degree of specificality you say is required to prove it. Why do you expect it of them when we already know we can't?
I can't count the number of ways I disagree with you on this one.
What do you think of the verses I quoted in post #28?
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Just to be clear- I hold no personal animosity towards the LDS Church or its members, and am not endeavoring to "lead people astray". I am simply sharing the beliefs I have come to as a fellow believer in the Book of Mormon. I am hoping to build bridges of understanding between believers in the Book of Mormon of all stripes. Thank you for putting up with me.
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You are being "technical" with my words. You know very well what I meant. You are diverting this discussion down a different path, looking for technicalities.
Joseph Smith was a prophet and translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. Joseph Smith instituted the building of temples in the latter days and restored the sacred ordinances and covenants associated with temple worship.
He did both while under the influence of revelation.
So, the obvious answer (that you are dodging) is that either Joseph Smith was a prophet or he wasn't. Either both are revelation from God or neither are.
But, to play along for a bit, just to humor you:
2 Nephi 5:
1 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
Jacob 1:
17 Wherefore I, Jacob, gave unto them these words as I taught them in the temple, having first obtained mine errand from the Lord.
Mosiah 2: 1-7 (I'll only post 7)
7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.
Alma 16:
13 And Alma and Amulek went forth preaching repentance to the people in their temples, and in their sanctuaries, and also in their synagogues, which were built after the manner of the Jews.
Helaman 3:
9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
3 Nephi 11:
1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.
Here we have temples that were built and existed both before and after Christ appeared to the people. Christ appeared to the people at a temple site.
According to you, we are to assume that temple work did not go on in the temple because it is not mentioned specifically by name, such as "baptism for the dead." I believe it is on your shoulders to prove temple work did not go on in the temples they built. It is silly for me to have to prove the buildings they built for temple work, called temples, were used as temples. It is understood that temples are used for temple work, even if not mentioned specifically for your benefit.
You will never be able to prove that temples were built for any other purpose than for temple work. You may assume so if you like, but I will assume temples were built by the Church of God for the same purposes in all ages.
The work for the dead is almost never mentioned in scripture, any scripture, because of its sacredness.
But, no matter what you think of this argument, the one you must show me is that Joseph Smith was only a prophet when he translated the Book of Mormon and not when he built temples and instituted the ordinances therein.
I really don't see this discussion going any where. But, in case it does, I have more evidence that I am not inclined to share right now.
I never disagreed that Temples were used amoung the Nephites prior to Jesus Christ- though I may disagree in the purpose for which they were used.
I have not diverted the discussion at all...
You accused me of oxy-moronic thinking for loving the Book of Mormon and not accepting proxy works for the dead. I have sought to prove that, I can, with a Book of Mormon believing mindset, have difficulty accepting those practices.
I feel no obligation to accept everything Joseph Smith said or did simply because the Lord used him as a tool to bring the Book of Mormon into the world. He is subject unto the prophets just like every other prophet is subject to the prophets...
1 Corinthians 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
He holds no special place of significance for me above any other mortal man that has been used by God at one point or another.
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Now, I would like to explain, using the Book of Mormon, why I do not personally accept the idea of proxy works for the dead...
First, the Book of Mormon is clear that "THIS life is the time to prepare to meet God"...
Alma 34:32-35
For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
But what about those who never heard the message of the Gospel? They are provided for by the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ...
2 Nephi 9:25-26
Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.
For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.
Moroni 8:22
For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
So who is it that is actually condemned when leaving this mortal life?
2 Nephi 9:27
But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!
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3 Nephi 11:1
Do you really think these people, tutored by the resurrected Christ, would, after this sublime experience, abandon the temple? Yet they would not be performing animal sacrifices any more, would they?
Questions to think about. 200 years of peace, prosperity and unity under Christ. Pretty cool. Like I said, pretty cultural "Mormon" stuff, not necessarily supported in the text.
HiJolly
Let's quote it for context...
3 Nephi 11:1
And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.
This gathering was previous to the appearing of Jesus Christ and His teachings unto them- which included...
3 Nephi 15:2-5
And it came to pass that when Jesus had said these words he perceived that there were some among them who marveled, and wondered what he would concerning the law of Moses; for they understood not the saying that aold things had passed away, and that all things had become new.
And he said unto them: Marvel not that I said unto you that old things had passed away, and that all things had become anew.
Behold, I say unto you that the alaw is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.
Behold, aI am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to bfulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.
And why would he teach them that? Because they were still keeping the Law of Moses...
3 Nephi 1:23-25
And it came to pass that Nephi went forth among the people, and also many others, baptizing unto repentance, in the which there was a great remission of sins. And thus the people began again to have peace in the land.
And there were no contentions, save it were a few that began to preach, endeavoring to prove by the scriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses. Now in this thing they did err, having not understood the scriptures.
But it came to pass that they soon became converted, and were convinced of the error which they were in, for it was made known unto them that the law was not yet fulfilled, and that it must be fulfilled in every whit; yea, the word came unto them that it must be fulfilled; yea, that one jot or tittle should not pass away till it should all be fulfilled; therefore in this same year were they brought to a knowledge of their error and did confess their faults.
Alma 25:15
Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.
So one reason they may have been gathered at the Temple was the fact that they were still keeping the performances of the Law of Moses. After Jesus taught them, there is never another mention of Temple worship.
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I agree that the Book of Mormon does not explicitly support proxy work for the dead. Although I think it tacitly supports it in light of temple practice after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. But that's a very "Mormon" cultural opinion, not supported by the actual text itself. IMO.
HiJolly
Maybe I have missed something you noticed?
Where are there verses concerning Temple worship in the Book of Mormon AFTER the coming of Jesus Christ?
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OK, thank you. I appreciate you being civil about it. What books of scripture do you accept? What prophets do you accept? If you accept *only* The Book of Mormon, then I can see where you are coming from.
I accept the Book of Mormon and the Bible as my standards for truth and doctrine...
2 Nephi 3:12
Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
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I was accused of oxy-moronic thinking for loving the Book of Mormon while at the same time not accepting proxy works for the dead. So, yes, the focus on this thread is the Book of Mormon and it's teachings concerning proxy works for the dead. If it is an oxy-moron for me to believe in the Book of Mormon and not accept porxy works for the dead- I want to be shown how. Then I will give my views, from the Book of Mormon, as to why I don't accept it.
I hope that helps clear things up.
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So I have been labeled as engaging in a oxy-moronic thought process, so I figured I would start this thread.
Ex-wife doesn't want step-son to attend church
in Marriage and Relationship Advice
Posted
So divorce degrees violate the Establishment Cause on a regular basis? Interesting.