Holdyourfire

Jenda, Do they not use the book of Abraham in the RLDS church? School me please. HYF

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones. I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Touché You stand corrected. I am not, and (more than likely) never will be Mormon. Sorry. You lose! Mmmmm....crow.

Bear with me...Perfection is our first and default state. Most believe the opposite. We intentionally forget our natural state when we come here (Earth) because it allows us to not know everything. In this way we can re-experience and re-discover that which we can't in an omnipresent existence. Experience can only happen in a 'relative' plane where time and space exist. Here in my physical body, how long would it take for me to reach out and touch a person who is standing in front of me? -A second at most. Now take away time. Now distance no longer exists between me and that person. It now takes zero time for me to reach out and touch them. Actually in the non-relative or omnipresent state we were never apart. We are one. There is no separation between any thing in creation. That is how we know everything. It is impossible not to know everything because there is no time dividing us from what we now know and what we would know in the future. Example: Here on earth it takes time to learn things. You start at birth with absolutely nothing besides our natural biological functions. Every day that time passes you learn something new. At twenty you should understand more about life than you did at twelve. Now hypothetically eliminate TIME from the age of twelve to the age of twenty. Only time was separating you from knowledge you have at twenty. No time = no separation of you from future knowledge. Backtracking a little, this also reveals the nature of God. Outside of time there is nothing separating me and you and every person on the planet. We are one. That is god. God uses time to divide her self/him self into many pieces. –Us. This is necessary because God, in his omnipresent state is unable to experience any thing because there is nothing he is not. There is no other vantage point for him to see himself from. Hence the need for a place where God can “know thyself" -A place where he can see himself from a different perspective. -A place where he can know the experience the joys of actually re-discovering things again. When you look at another human being, you are God experiencing himself from a different vantage point. So it is wise to… Matthew 25: 40 …Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Ray, you asked: Yes, every possible difference is humanly represented on earth. They would be outside of time, or in other words, dead, or outside of the relative plane. I know what you are getting at though. Instead of "perfect" people, I would use "enlightened" since perfection is not the goal of earth life. An enlightened person would be one who realizes that what they are experiencing here is exactly what they wanted -both the good and bad. It helps you see with new eyes. From a higher perspective even the negative things that happen can be viewed as good. I'm trying. It takes a lot of effort to remember that we are all one.

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I probably should have just bolded the things I wanted empahasis on instead speaking in capitals (yelling) I really didn't mean the yelling. Just the emphasis. Oh well, bygones.I do find the "see a psychiatrist" thing a little ironic coming from a potential future inhabitant of the planet nearest to the star 'Kolob". On which you will share your chosen mate with about a billion sister wives. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Touché

Dueteronomy 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee: Uh..teacher, I think I need to "ease myself abroad"

No responses? I've killed the thread. Wow. Is that winning by default? R.I.P

Well, we have gotten to the meat of your post. Guess what? The same argument works in reverse! Because we are coming from such differing places, your arguments will have no effect on those of us who faithfully hold to the belief that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God. So, tell me again why you are here? I think I need to clarify a little more about where I am coming from. I believe in God, but not an external one. I believe that I am God in every sense of the word. That Man in his natural state is not a “God in embryo” as the church implies, but is all knowing and all powerful RIGHT NOW! That when you are not in your physical body’s temporary, self-imposed limitations -You are GOD. YOU created the universe. You are here right now because it was Gods Will, meaning your OWN WILL as a God. Your every choice is God’s will/your will. Any experience you have chosen to have here on earth is Gods choice/your choice. Hence –true free will with no asterisks or small print. Mankind is operating under historical notions that are entirely incorrect. These notions are passed along generation after generation because they exist under the mistaken notion that they come from God, and are his requirements. Once labeled “Gods will”, mankind places an importance and authority on these things that cannot be questioned because it just IS. Almost everyone operates under these incorrect systems. We get them second hand from our parents and from the world. This is what Jesus was trying to get across to mankind. Jesus was not different than you or me. -And Buddha, too for that matter. They are just humans/Gods who understood their own divine nature. Naturally, they wanted to free man from the incorrect and un-necessary beliefs that stopped them from knowing and operating from their true nature. That is the PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH that Jesus was trying to show, but it has become so horribly misconstrued by time and religion. Religion is merely what mankind thinks an external God requires of them verses what just is. -“Ye are GODS” already. Why am I here in LDS chat? I'm pulling the mask off "the old lone ranger" so to speak.

False positives are not really possible. It merely alerts you to some kind of flaw in the testing methods. Like getting a false positive on a preganancy test. The strip says you are pregnant but you aren't. Or, for instance, An over zealous fellow may know in his heart that god has told him that that hot girl in the singles ward is too be, by Gods decree, his future wife. When in fact the Girl is completely creeped out by the guy and there's is no possible way she will marry him. (I saw this a lot) There are many of these kinds of false positives in the church. I have been employed by people who ran their business based on prayers, rather that sound business practices. God, it seems, ran them into the ground. They saw it as a test. They continue to rely on God for the directions they should pursue in their next business ventures despite the double mortgages on their home, huge debts and inability to pay past taxes. I have "really" recieved my own experience that I cannot ignore. I too cannot abandon the ship it has put me on despite the roughness of leaving a previously adhered to belief system.

What a coincidence, so does Satan. Good, now you two have more than one thing in common. You and Jason are so lost it's pathetic. "Never attribute to Devil-worshipping conspiracies what opportunism, emotional instability, and religious bigotry are sufficient to explain." --Shawn Carlson, Ph.D. Satan and God are metphorical. Representing the good and bad sides of mankind. Man is to blame for the good and bad that religions bring.

HYF: True. But change "Falling away" to "Graduating" Thanks. I don't believe that you have never had a burning of the bosom! It's the same as a burning in your heart. This is probably the most common and easiest occurring experience in the LDS church. All you have to do is sit and listen to a talented church speaker or bear your testimony. I recommend Paul H. Dunn. You heard Jesus speak? In your head or externally -like from in front of you? I agree. It seems to be a vague tool. Which leads me to ask why is God keeping the Holy Ghost on his payroll, if he can't testify to us of the truth in a clear and simple manner. Problem is, a false positive is not distinguishable from a real positive. Otherwise we would never have mistaken that a false positive was a real positive in the first place. The result is that I am on that ship that I cannot abandon. Because I really…I mean REALLY did experience something I cannot ignore. Leaving the church IS a rough experience. To quote Martin Luther King: <span style='color:blue'>"Here I stand, God help me, I cannot do otherwise"

Jenda: "My question is (I guess I have two questions). One, when you are experiencing manifestations of the Spirit such as what I wrote of, how can you consider yourself in spiritual bondage????" HYF: You need to ask someone who still believes the Holy ghost is an external influence. Here's my two cents anyway. I had a spritual experience so profound, that by direct comparison it it made sitting in the LDS church every week feel well... empty. Even though I had many LDS spritual experiences previous to that one, it was like night compared to the day. I'll go with the greater light hands down. Just to clarify, my profound experience was distinctly religion free. It changed my beliefs across the board about God and everything I had been taught. Jenda: "Two, when you are experiencing what the scriptures call gifts of the spirit, how can that be wrong? And even if you decide that you have found a better truth out there, how can people producing good fruit be wrong? HYF: I believe that most religions do good works from a micro view point. From a macro view, religions produce conflicts, divisions among mankind, even wars given enough time. Overall, I think religions do more harm than good. There will always be good people doing good things even without religion sponsoring it. I hope these good doers are the same people despite what church they do or don’t belong to. Goodness is its own reward. It is not indicative of belonging to a "true" or "false" organization. Jenda quoted: Luke 9:49-50 (IV) 49 And John spake and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid not any; for he who is not against us is for us. Are you one to go against what Jesus said just because of your personal feelings? You better rethink that position because you are putting yourself in a position of judgment, and by whatsoever judgment you render, the same will be meted back to you." HYF: Quoting scriptures like this to me is presuming that I hold them in the same light as you do. I don't. They are not Gods words to me. A casualty of Occam's razor I'm afraid. I don't believe Jesus was what you believe him to be. We're both coming from very different places so the questions of going against Jesus don't exactly work for me.

I really doubt you have been down the same road as anyone else...all our roads are as individual as we are each individuals...unlike anyone else. You may think you have come to some point of 'enlightenment' but when you really wake up...you will see that your 'light' only came from a 100 watt light bulb... Really...because I have been close to down the same road you are now on...and believe me...when you get to the end of that road...you won't be where you thought you would be. I have been down that road -in principal. I was BIC. I was raised in the church by goodly parents to be good, honest, and sincere in all aspects of my life. I was a mormon true blue. I hit all the LDS mile markers in my life, preisthoods, callings, honorable missionary service, temple married, temple attendee. I was very conscientious about keeping God and the spirit in my life. And yes, I knew it to be true by the Holy Ghost. (I believed it was the Holy Ghost because the church told me what the Holy ghost's wittness is like so that is what I used to label what was true. (Very circular logic when viewed from a nuetral vantage point I might add) I knew Jesus was my savior. I knew Joseph was the prophet of the restoration. When I say I've walked that road, I'm saying that I understand very well what the LDS church experience is all about. I was the church for thirty years. I KNOW what the holy ghost feels like as the church defines it. I know I've experienced the same feelings that you have experienced while praying, learning, listening to "inspired" speakers, bearing testimonies, hearing testimonies, teaching the gospel, and blessing the sick with my own hands, etc etc. You are going to conclude anyway that my experiences were coming from some other source than God because I am no longer active in the LDS church. If so, I would have to conclude that your holy spirit experiences need to be examined as well, since satan it seems can imitate the Holy ghost so well. Am I to assume that it was satan all along in my experiences? That god forsook me in my honest yearnings? That my burning busom was somehow different than the person's sitting next to me as we heard inspiring testimonies about Jesus? Not likely. I've had to concluded that what the LDS church calls the Holy ghost and it's methods, is just not a reliable indicator of Gods truths.

You claim to KNOW the truth without a shadow of doubt. I don't believe you. I KNEW once too. Time and further experience changed that fact. I realized that I was just plain convincing myself. Here's a fact: You are more receptive to things that align and validate your personal beliefs and the desires of your heart. Your body and mind react appropriately. You experience chills. You feel validated, your conviction is ignited by the words of one or many with shared hopes and desires. Your heart may burn, the emotions rise. The holy ghost is testifying to you. God is with you. You are in the right. Your hood slightly muffles your cheers as well as your klansmen brothers as the cross ignites. Praise the great white Lord! Beware all seeds of cain! ------- I am quite sentimental to dogs. I stumbled across a "True Story" television program where a dog becomes lost on a family vacation. The family looks without success. In despair they have to leave and travel home without their beloved pet. The dog is frightened starving and alone in the wilds. One year passes and 800 miles away a skinny, tired, and mangy dog appears on the porch of a house. A small girl with her school lunchbox in hand opens the door to catch her bus and discovers that their dog has come home. ME: Chills, stiffled sobbing, and tears of joy violating my manly face. The world is beautiful. The spirit? Yes of course, My God would love animals just like me. Therefore it is the HG. ------ You have been pleading in heartfelt suppliction to God to know, to gain a testimony of the truthfullness of the church. You do this night after night. You study the scriptures. The prayers never leave your thoughts throughout the day. For days, weeks or years you seek this confirmation. One night suddenly you are rewarded. You feel it. A warmth envelops your body. You feel intense love, peace, and comfort. You just know it is true somehow. You cry with joy and thank Allah for blesssing you. Ten years later you honor him by piloting a jet into the WTC. PorterRW, You say you were favored by being born with some knowledge and insight. Great! Feel free to explain how your experience is unique.

PorterRW: "..it is ok to question. But only with a true, honest intent."ME: Yes, I have an agenda. -I am spending all my time asking questions because I want misleading half truths for answers. I wouldn't want any real truths coming into play to set me on a non-confusing path back to god. PorterRW: "...try this. Close your eyes and relax. Think about a place where there is no pain, no struggle. A joyous atmosphere with concourses of angels singing, and God the Father among his children. Imagine the laughter and the enjoyment of being surrounded by those intelligences living a Celestial law. Imagine a pre-existant state where you were one of the choice intelligences to come to earth in the last days, you chose God's plan. You were righteous, now, put your current situation over the picture you just painted." Me: What you said here is merely a religious hand-me-down. You read it, were taught it, and chose to accept it. You and I do not know if it reflects reality. I KNOW you don't know this for sure. And how do I know that? Because Joseph Smith said that if you even saw the glory of the terrestrial kingdom you would kill yourself to get there. And yet here you are talking like you have seen the celestial kingdom and yet you, I assume, are typing this from a physical body. Your faith is merely you optimisticly standing behind the beliefs you have chosen. Every faith does it yet every faith is different. And besides I could tell you a similar story but the cast would be Santa Claus, elves, and good little children set in the north pole. I garrantee I could tell it all warm and fuzzy to help you visualize it and hope for it. What? My story doesn't compare to yours? Oh, thats right your story is based on facts and proven truths. Listen, Ive been down your road, but in light of recieving "New lines" and "New precepts" I was obliged to pursue a different course. Yet, even in these new precepts, I realize they are merely my choices and hopes based on what I discern is the truth. In this we are the same. I will adjust as new truths come into my understanding.

You are creating something out of nothing. First of all you must idenitfy what that scripture pertains to. He is good to all in the sense he gives us the opportunity to seek him and have truth. That he will bless as he sees fit. Those scriptural references(at least the later) is to show that God WILL NOT BE MOCKED. It is not our place to question the reasoning behind those things which do occur. The problem with the Bible is that it has been read for so long without the companionship of the BOM, that the plain and simple truths, which aid our understanding, that false impressions of scripture have been a constant. A negative one at that. God will punish those, and only those who are unrepentant. He cursed the Seed of Laman and Lemuel, the Jews...look at all the hardship, because they rejected the Messiah and they rejected God. Now that being said, even someone who is repentant has natural consequences both temporal and spiritual that occur upon wrong doing, but they in no way are contradictory to the nature of God. If we are not witness to His wrath upon the unrepentant, how shall we know how to follow him and seek his compassion? Good question though. Porter: "You are creating something out of nothing." Me: And you, are looking at a mountain and calling it a mole hill. The examples I gave are what they are. You seem to see a vague outline or fuzziness to the scriptures I quoted while I take them at face value and in context. -You know "the plain and simple truth". Call me crazy. You also said: "It is not our place to question the reasoning behind those things which do occur". And: "And we would do well not to question how he gives out his blessings. If you are righteous and obedient, struggle IS a blessing. It is the refiners fire that makes you like your Father in Heaven. Pressure defines us, it rids us of our impurities, it helps us understand joy." Me: I cannot believe in a god that fears the questions of his supposed children. I will question EVERYTHING in the heavens and on earth untill I get the facts. You seem to be coming from the belief that you are a shamefull, unworthy and lowly creation of God. I say the world will reflect your belief back to you. I hope you are enjoying the refiners fire, and all the suffering/joy that god is heaping upon you. I've seen you in testimony meetings. You stand up and list all of the negative things that have happened in your life the previous month and attribute it all to Gods testing you. Yet you never seem to graduate or rise above it because you have accepted that it is your place in the scheme of things. It is the same testing over and over and over. It's a blessed miracle.! Praise God! Frankly I just don't get this so called omnipotent -bipolar -all wise being that I am supposed to want to live with forever. I don't believe in that God. I cannot believe in that God. If I find that this God is indeed my creator, well he can shove it! I'll take the bullet train to his hell -I.E. to bask in some more refiners fire/joy.