LDSJewess
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Posts posted by LDSJewess
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Hate to sound harsh and do not mean to be. But if people leave the church because they have problems hearing someone's political opinion, they need to work on their testimony a little. That of course applies to me and everyone.
No I do not think it os proper to do open campaigning for a candidate in any church during services or Sunday school etc because we are there for worship and learning about the gospel. But when it comes to social discussions or at social events I see it as fine and perhaps even appropriate.
I realize there is a true separation of church in this country, however, that being said, these days there is an extremily fine line between politics aand social issues (and for that matter church policies).
For instance social issues such as abortion and gay nmarriage to mention just a few are very much in the forefront of the political arena as they are also in the forefront of church policy.
Certain political groups take a very firm stand on some of these issues as do churches including the LDS church. In fact these above issues are discussed prior to baptism and obtaining a Temple recommend.
For us not to feel allowed to discuss these issues less they be seen as political discussions then we are not being clear on our beliefs and what we stand for.
So although mentioning a special political candidate, it shoudl be well within appropriateness to discuss the issues, and then the individual can look into the issues that the various candidates stand for.
This would be helpful for people trying to make decisions that are in line with the church policies.
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Please see your Bishop as soon as possible.
I know many of us don't want to keep asking for help because we feel we are bugging others.
But I once had a Visiting Teacher point out that when someone has a calling, oftentimes if we don't call on them to help us we are denying them the opportunity and the blessings of doing their calling.
And in addition to the Bishop, allow your parents and family to know. Of course they will be upset just as you would be if someone dear to you was hurting. But they want to know and want to help you.
You have an entire church family as well. Don't deny others the opportunity to be blessed by helping yopu. And don't deny yourself the opportunity to live in the fullness of joy that Heavenly Fathers intends for you.
Wishing you all the best. You will get through this.
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That is a great deal. Good luck with it.
Yes there is a font change feature to enlarge the font, move pages out and forward etc:
As I said mine is a year old and has tons of downloads, books, apps etc: and it works just as well as the day it came out of the box.
The customer service is great too. A few weeks ago I took an extended trip and an altercation between two grandchildren bent the charger chord. We went to a local Barnes and Noble and they replaced the cord for free no questions asked.
Best of luck with yours.
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If you accept the logic that the Bible is a collection of suspect works, then I would think you would understand that the Book of Mormon is also suspect. We can give Joseph Smith all the credit he deserves, even with his lack of formal schooling, but we can't forget that he translated from many authors as well.
Whether we choose to believe what is written is still a matter of faith, but we should not take what is written for face value. If we accept that, we are more willing to actually accept the spirit of the scriptures rather than the arguable semantics. Revelation, even if it moves at a sloth like speed, attempts to remedy this.
Truth has always been relative to our positions and to claim that we have all truth is too pretentious and arrogant for me. Statements of arrogance generally alienate, rather than invite a discussion for shared truth.
Then again, my moderate views on the whole thing upset people because they perceive it as a source of fear that what they accept as absolute, is not. Perhaps my lack of secondary education is considered a handicap, despite knowing that education does not equate intelligence.
I would not say that the bible is a collection of "suspect" works at all. If we embrace this kind of thinking than EVERYTHING we read; newspapers, books, history, science is suspect. Perhaps a better term is that it is open for discussion, and I find that the LDS church members have numerous discussions regarding many biblical readings. Perhaps you don't hear these discussions in a Gospel Principle class because many investigatiors or new members are just getting the grasp of the basics.
What history shows us is not so much as whether scriptures are "true" rather how they were and still are interpreted by various groups that developed religious denominations around their interpretations that in turn became cultural. In other words, just because someone says a biblical writing is true does not mean it is necessarily false to someone else who simply interprets it differently.
The same with Joseph Smith. I believe the fact that he fervently prayed to be guided as to what church he should join is not to imply he thought one may be absolute truth and the rest of the denonminations false.
It is my understanding that Heavenly Father's plan with Joseph Smith was for him to record and translate scriptures that were left out that had become unavailable to humankind. And also to restore and re-establish the church of Jesus Christ on Earth, and make the Book Of Mormon available to other seekers of scripture.
As for the comments about the selling of the idea of Christianity. There is not one specific book. It's a matter of History that many Greeks and Romans practiced pagen religions, and Jews had a number of religious sects within their own ranks (some of which followed Jesus in his time). Perhaps one of the best salesmen/missionaries that was out gathering Christian members was Paul after his conversion. Since Paul was neigher Roman or Jew, but had an education in Hellenistic thought and a bacground knowledge of what others thought, the teaching part became easier than most (that is as long as the students were willing to learn), and he managed to stay aliove in the face of hostile opposition.
The second part of selling, (in which this latter case was not selling so much as ordering the masses), came from the government of the day. Remember that back then the government and religious rule was one and the same so the government officials and religious officials worked together to decide what the masses should believe and what scriptures to accept as truth. During the twelve councils on Constantinople (google it because the writings can get long), were councils comprosed of government sanctioned officials., bishops and arch bishops representating various demographics of the Empire, to make decisions on how scriptures were to be interpreted as to the runnings of the church.
Meanwhile among Judaism, there were Rabbinical councils interpreting the Torah, developing the Tamlud and Midrash.
When Martin Luther brought new interpretations onto the scene, he was executed for his discenting beliefs in the established Roman church and with his death as a myrter, his followers formed the Luthern denomination which also since divided into "synods" or regions of such that vary quite a bit in how the church is run.
Then along came other Protest-ant faiths behind Lutheranism.
And the list goes on.
Although there was much contention and a whole lot of bloodshed amound humankind over the "interpretation" of scriptures, I doubt people of logic thought of it as what was ultimately truth and ultimately falsehood. It was about how scriptures were interpreted to run the church which was synominous with government which equaled the positioning for power.
Although I do have a formal education, it does not take a sheepskin on the wall to learn about religious history. Just a willingness to learn and seek out the knowledge. Today you can learn a lot online which often makes we wonder why I spent all that money.
In any event, I believe that Joseph Smith was just one of those people. Young, inquisitive, a strong desire to open his mind and learn, and accept and have faith even in the face of strong opposition. The work he was called to do was indeed his calling. Personally I find it amazing that Joseph accomplished all that he did without any help from Google or Wikipedia. Then again, that is where faith comes in. :)
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Antibiotics can be hard to add to storage because it would be hard to stockpile them for most Americans. Perscription required means trips to the Docotr and since antibiotics are prescribed for infections it would not be easy to get refills for more than you need, no less with the multiple antibiotic drugs that the video suggested.
If you are living in another country that sells over the counter, this will work but unless you can travel to Mexico or Europe etc: not so easy here.
Antibiotics have their place and yes they can be life savers against infectious disease. As with all drugs they can carry side effects so the choice to use them should be with the reasoning that the risk of side effects outweighs the risk of the disease.
Although allergies are no common, yes they happen and life threatening. But for that matter people can have a life threatening or fatal allergy to herbs, walnuts, strawberries and shellfish to name a few.
Antibiotics would be great in storage preparation kits but would need to be recycled or tossed out if not used within expiration dates. Some antibiotics can lose their strength over time, while others like doxycycline can become toxic past the expiration date.
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I find it fascinating that people argue about a book that was translated 1600 years after the main characters death. The Bible as we know it, or rather, the King James version is a collection of books that I suspect have lost much of their authenticity over the 1600 years of translations and mis-representations. Lets not forget that some of the scriptures were written in such a manner as to sell a religion to skeptics that lacked a formal education. Not only that, the stories that predate the main character are based on legend and to be taken at face value seems proposterous.
I am not slandering the standard works by any means, but I am only attempting to interject a note of caution into this discussion. There is much good to found by studying the scriptures, but there is much that is taken at face value and that worries me.
I did find it interesting to learn from my Islamic friends that they consider the Bible corrupt. Furthermore, I did find it odd when I did read the Koran that there was much bias to be found as well.
True, the bible (KJV) is a compilation of books written after the Jesus walked the Earth, and yes during the reign of the Roman Empire the books within the bible went through quite the editing process in that Councils within the government (prior to any separation of church and state). The twelve Councils of Constantanople discuss what books are the word of God and are to be considered sacred, and what ones are to be eliminated. And yes Christianity went through a lot of changes from trying to bring appeal and selling new ideas to the Greeks and Roman pagans and various sects of Jews (who were debating what was true and viable in the Torah). Eventually Christianity was no longer "sold" to the masses, rather forced upon them. Then more debating when the Protestant reformation brought more contention and divisiveness regarding what was the true word of God.
Some of this was actually printed in tracts that LDS missionaries used as recently 20 or so years ago but do not have this in their lesson information anymore that I know of.
It seems no wonder why Heavenly Father saw fit to call on the likes of Joseph Smith who was a young man of pure heart that prayed to seek what religion was true. Then what follows is the Book Of Mormon which clarify's scripture and get his church back on track.
:)
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That sounds great, and with the 5 month easy payment plan, I'd have no problem affording it. Don't know why. But I thought you could only get Nooks from Barns & Noble.
QVC is on TV right? is it also on line? Wait. I can find out on my own. Thanks I really think I'm going to go with the Nook.
Yes. Mine is called the Nook color. QVC (the online and TV shopping channel) sells them. I had bought mine last year for $249 with 5 easy payments which made it affordable for me. I checked their site and they currently have one for $280 with only 2 easy payments but that changes. You may want to wait on a sale with more payments offered, and also check with them for their free shipping offers. This one item number E222235 has a video on their website of what it can do. On the video shows that it was $239.99 with 5 easy payments. The sales come up pretty often. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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I was wondering, do you think you can lose your temple recommend if you do not support prop 8 or anything like it? I believe that missionary work is the only right course of action not forcing people to adhere to our belief system. However, the question on whether or not you are sympathetic to groups that are contrary to the gospel leaves me wondering that if I were too open about this opinion I may run the risk of losing my recommend. I have noticed that other liberal Mormons also tend to use a pseudonym as well which makes me wonder if this is something I need to be concerned with. I can't ask my Bishop either because the last thing I want to hear is, Sister please return your recommend.
My take on this is to review the questions that you answered when you interviewed for your Temple recommend.
There may be a fine line but in my humble opinion when you answer yes to if you sustain the leaders of the church, this means that you accept, honor and uphold the church leaders and their callings in the church. Whether you agree with their political views is not the question.
That said there is also a fine line when it comes to what is a political issue and what is a religious issue. Since we have a separation of Church and State in America, you may need to define for yourself.
From a church stand point, it is ok to be a gay member as long as one does not act upon it. So I suppose one could also infer that if a gay couple married but did not consumate the said marriage then this could be acceptable. This would seem odd of course but then again their could be gay couples that want the union for legal reasons such an insurance, tax or inheritance issues etc:
From my personal stand point, I don't really care if gays marry or not. Although I would prefer they simply called it civil union. I don't understand or agree with gay lifestyle but I'm pretty much a live and let live person and prefer to spend time working on improving my own life with my family.
I don't think that those who do not support prop 8 are necessarily forcing their religious beliefs on gays or anyone else. Indeed I know a number of people who are not LDS, not even Christian, or for that matter practice any religion at all, however, they are not comfortable with gays being married.
As for your recommend, I highly doubt a Bishop would just walk up to you and say "Sister Please return your recommend." In the event that you took your strong political views to the streets and spoke out against the church, then that may be another story. But likely your Bishop would opt to discuss the issue and counsel you before such a decision is made.
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Last year I invested in the Nook Color and for me it's the best thing since sliced bread.
I am not as familiar with the Kindle but my husband has one and he says my Nook has more features.
With cover and accessories it is slightly smaller than the Hymn book and it's all I need to carry to church, travel, waiting in a Doctors office etc:
I love to read from many genre and this Nook has "shelves like a electronic library where I can catagorize the subject matter.
For instance one shelf is all LDS reading and includes my Quad scriptures, Hymn Book, Gospel Principles, Preach My Gospel, Teachings Of The Presidents Of The Church, Daughters Of My Kingdom, and even a copy of "Chicken Soup For the Latter Day Saints Soul" which is just for fun leisure reading.
Another shelf may have favorite fiction, and another health and wellness books, and another non fiction, political etc:
There is also email and internet when a wi-fi connect is available but not nearly as efficient as a large desktop or large screen laptop.
There are a lot of apps that I haven't even figured out yet. But I did find a useful visual and audio relaxation app, and also my favorite mahjong game.
If you are just looking for a reader Kindle is great, but I have just found the Nook more useful overall. I believe I paid $249.00 on QVC a year ago with all accessories and free shipping; and they had a 5 month easy payment plan which made the purchase less painful.
I hope you enjpy whatever you decide.
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Personally I don't think wearing of any stockings has to do with modesty. If it did we would have an entire Ward full of immodest LDS women.
I think it has more to do with style preference and the climate you live in and what is acceptable where you live.
I don't give much attention to what everone is wearing but in our Ward I would estimate perhaps 80 to 90 percent of women in our Ward were not wearing any kind of stockings and most were wearing sandals and even flip flops and a variety of skirt lengths and styles that are modest enough to cover garments from knee length pnecil or a-line styles to prairie or broom stick skirts with tee shirts with jackets or shawls for when the air conditioning is too cool.
This is typical attire here for all ages. I'm over 60 and remember when in high school it was a rite of passage to get to wear nylons with garter belts (before panty hose). Then along came panty hose but they were problematic at first to get them on right to the "seams" would line up right. Then of course came seamless pantyhose. Been there and done that and have not owned nylons or pantyhose in close to two decades.
Then again we are in Florida where it's a hot and humid 90 something degrees so dress may vary with the climate.
Those of us that spend to much office time and not enough sunshine can spray tan which looks more natural than panty hose.
When I visit up North or Wards in cooler climates I take the opportunity to wear long skirts with boots that I can't wear much at home.
As far as modesty, if the clothing covers garments it's modest. :)
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Quote "But why would I invest ALL of myself in something that "may" last forever... but may not (assuming again that both parties are faithful)? " End Quote
I guess my answer is why not? If you get married "till death do you part" or "for time and eternity" would not you go into it investing your all.
The future is not etched in stone, but irregardless I would think that no matter what kind of commitment you embark on in life that you would invest your ALL.
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Hello everyone,
I would like to start a discussion regarding food storage.
Throughout my career life I traveled extensively, and my children had a nanny, so I never got in the habit of lerning to prepare food. If not eating out, I prepared very easy micro waveable meals. My husband and I eat out or eat a lot of convenience foods.
The subject of food storage has come up at our Ward. Some of the suggested sites for freeze dried long shelf life food is extremily expensive, not to mention that you have to add a cup of watter to every meal, so how would one store a year's worth of water for a years worth of food?
We were also told about Berley water purifying vessels, little stoves to cook on that require no fuel just twigs I think, and some kind of living sprouts thing (now how that works I have no idea). I am a little ovver whelmed over this (actually a lot over whelmed) and do not want to sound totally incompetant about this even though I am not feeling very competant about the food issue.
We are not poor by anyone's standards, but we are pretty much living from month to month, check to check and paymant to payment. So although we are meeting our bills and financial obligations, there is not extra to add to our expenses.
I would enjoy hearing from those who are activelt in the process of storing food. How much do you store, what costs re actually involved. Any advice or ideas would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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There are a lot of fabrics. I live in Florida where it is not only hot, but we get the humidity go go with. I personally like the Carinessa II which for me the best way to sescribe is a very light weight spandex-ish stretchy fabric that is very smooth in fit and can be worn very comfortably even under spandex work out wear. (Think nike dry fit fabric only much much lighter in weight).
When I got used to wearing garments I tend to feel uncomfortable not wearing them. It's kind of like comparing a jacket that has no lining versus one that does. The lining is just a better fit and feel.
I hope you will learn to enjoy wearing them and also come to love their purpose and meaning.
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Think about the new fiance. If he is a good, righteous man, he would probably want to know what kind of girl she really is. He should know the full truth before he gets into a marriage relationship with her. If I were you, I wouldn't really worry so much about _her_ salvation as she obviously isn't very worried about it; I would worry more about the poor unsuspecting man who she is going to marry. If I was him, I would definitely want to know the kind of girl she really is.
If you tell him and he doesn't believe you (maybe he thinks you're lying to get him to dump her), well then at least you tried to warn him. Later on in their marriage when they have problems, he'll realize you weren't lying, and then at that point he'll more fully understand what he is dealing with. So even if he doesn't believe you now, there is a good chance down the road he may come to believe you. If he DOES come to believe you, (whether it be sooner or later), then it will be helpful to him to know the full truth. Because isn't it always better to know more truth than less?
My only issue with this discussion is that it appears that there are some here that believe that the young woman should bear the entire responsibility when entering into marriage.
Is this to assume that the groom to be is an unsuspecting naive with no responsibility to get to know the woman he plans to marry BEFORE he proposes marriage. What ever happened to prolonged dating and long engagements where people could get to know the person they plan to spend the rest of their lives with.
From the original post if all is factual and not based on emotions, what we have here is three immature kids, and all three of them should mature a LOT befoere they even consider marriage.
Couple number one were both wrong do disobey the law of chastity. Couple number two may or may not be doing the same.
Chances are if boyfriend number one goes to the Bishop the only thing that solcves is his revenge for tharting a Temple marriage, but likely the couple will have a civil marriage and then to Temple after.
Personally it looks like all three parties involved need to grow up before they try and make adult decisions. They are ALL responsible for their actions and their decisions.
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I am a convert to the Church, baptized on 9.25.10, but fell away in March of 2011. I have tried to find my way back to Church, but at the time I left, I was confused and not sure what to do. Being the only member in my family caused everyone to pull away from me so I left because I didn't want to lose my family. In that time since March, I haven't been to church in a year, but I want to go back. However, I am engaged to a non-member and we're to be married by the end of this year. He knows my past and how sensitive I am on the subject of the Church because it helped save my life (I suffered from an ED for several years and was about to give up on fighting it).
Me and my fiance have had issues like all couples. As I am ill right now, suffering a lot of GI issues and frequenting the doctor several times a week, he is supporting me. He's paying for my medical bills, helped me pay for university, and pays for the apartment we live in together. Without him I wouldn't be going to school right now, have a car, or be able to afford my medical needs. But he thinks Mormonism is a joke and every time I talk to him about me going back to Church, he gets defensive and angry with me and tells me I don't live that life anymore and should forget about it.
I am not sin free. When I left the Church, I tried my best to fit in with my family again-- started drinking (not anymore), engaging in pre-marital intercourse with said fiance, cursing, dressing immodestly, and questioning Heavenly Father and if he played a role in my life or I was crazy like my family thought. So for a time I was happy, yet now I am seeing that the life me and my fiance live is not so happy. I don't have any friends, we stay at home all day long, except going out for doctor's, school, or shopping. He is on the computer ALL the time and it drives me nuts, yet when I talk to him about it it doesn't phase him.
He is a a great guy and I could NEVER fathom leaving him, but I don't know what to do. The reason why I haven't gone back to Church sooner is because of him. Because he's not included in it and he told me he could never ever be Mormon. Last night we went out to a movie with a few friends (his sister, her boyfriend, and sister's friend), and he brought up how I was invited to a Mormon wedding which I didn't go to because he didn't think it was fair for me to go and leave him at home. And he sat there and made fun of the Church and Temples with them as if it was some massive joke to him. When we left I broke down and he apologized for being a jerk, but it's been bothering me really bad. I'm in this moping funk because of it.
Sorry this is so long. I just don't know what I should do. I'm afraid I'll be judged for living with my non-member fiance if I go back to Church and that it might tear us apart. He says that me wanting to be Mormon is what is driving a wedge between us. But he doesn't seem to think it's such a big deal that I gave up so much to be with him and I'm not happy. Sorry for this rant. I just needed to get things off my chest because I don't know how many more times I can talk to my fiance about being Mormon. He just doesn't seem to think I'm serious. I've been praying and praying, but I don't know what else I could do.
Does anyone have any advice? I'm afraid that if I go back to Church and talk to a Bishop (I don't even know what my homeward is) that they'll say that I'm not worthy to take Sacrament or can't repent until I leave my situation (i.e. living with finace regardless of whether we engage in sexual acts--I don't want to anymore-- breaking the purity laws, etc.).
Anyone ever been in this situation? For reference I'm a 22 year old female, going on 23 in May, and would be in a YSA ward. And absolutely none of my family is Mormon so I don't know who to talk to and haven't talked to my Mormon friends in a long while so I don't know who to go to. Please help, I'm depserate!
Yes I do have some advice.
Please read and ponder the post you made. Here are the red flags that you need to take a look at:
You say "life is not happy" with your fiance. You close you post saying you are deserate.
But mid way through your post you say you could "never fathom leaving" the fiance.
I am saying this to you with sincere love and kindness and thoughts and prayers for you, but this may come off harsh.
Think about it. You are admittedly unhappy and desperate because of your fiance yet you cannot fathom laving him. Why? Allowing yourself to be engaged to a man who makes you unhappy is not only un healthy, it is self abuse pure and simple.
The bottom line is if you do not yet feel worthy, then you will have to work at getting worthy. This will not happen if you align yourself with other unworthy people, and you don't get to use the other unworthy people as an excuse for you being unworthy.
If you are strong enough which seems doubtful at this point, but if you commit yourself to becoming worthy, then you need to just do it. Go to church, read your scriptures and align yourself with a supportive network of brothers and sisters within your Ward. You can care about and love your family but you do not have to live like them.
To become worthy the fiance has to go (at least from your place of residence), unless you marry. But again, marrying someone you are unhappy with is a bad idea.
Your family can choose to live however they wish. But how YOU choose to live is totally up to you.
I agree it seems easier when you have a family that is also in the church, but even with me that is not the case. I have a number of family members that live with people they are not married, smoke, drink and don't live the gospel. I still love them but I choose not to live like them.
Also if you go back to church you will find a church family that will be supportive. And then as you live by the gospel you will be setting a wonderful example, and who knows the people in your life see how you are happy and may want to live like you.
Don't wait for them to change. You do the changing because you are the only one that can make change and it must be about you.
I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Many blessing await you but you have to reach out to accept them.
Be the best you can be. There is a saying that I love "If you want to soar like an Eagle you need to get out of the pig sty."
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Yes thank you. This does clarify for me, When I was a kid growing up in the 1950's the Catholci church and Protestant denominations were very separate and each served communion within the walls of their churches and there was not much interfaith interaction on either of their parts.
In those days it appeared that the sacredness of the Eucharist was guarded much like the LDS Temples are today. Although one did not need a recommend to stand in a communion, there seemed to be a lot of diligence in minding the store so to speak (both in Catholic and some protestant churches particulary Lutheran churches)
So I suppose all these years later I was taken aback by a communion service being so public and so inclusive. Actually it was a nice thing to see.
In any event thanks for clearing up some of my inquiry..
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Rameumptom, two observations:
1) You remark that it is a function of this young man's priesthood duty to report wrongdoing, even if he himself were an accomplice to (or, for all we know, enticed) that wrongdoing. Where the young man has not yet forthrightly disclosed his own wrongdoing to priesthood authorities, doesn't D&C 121:37 take effect and negate the young man's ability to carry out his priesthood functions?
2) You'd know this better than I, but my impression was that many Biblical commentators note that the whole point of Jesus' admonition re the woman taken in adultery ("let he who is without sin cast the first stone") was that, per Mosaic law, the witnesses had to throw the first stones and a woman's partner in adultery was barred from being one of the witnesses. Is my impression incorrect? If not, do you think it might have modern-day application?
And a third thought, to no one in particular:
The OP, and some of the responses, seem to embrace the narrative of this scheming little harlot who goes about leading virtuous young priesthood holders into fornication against their own wills. I'm sorry; I just don't buy it. I don't consider myself a feminist, but this notion still strikes me as sexist and willfully blind to what we all know about the sex drive of typical twenty-something males. Moreover, no less an authority than Alma has already debunked it:
I agree. If the young woman is guilty then both men (or at least the OP who admitted such) is equally guilty. I do not consider myself a feminist either, but it is not like she is causing them to do something against their will. If the woman was ruining the poor guy's life then he equally ruined hers from his own participation in the sins aformentioned.
Re: the comment posted by Rameumptom in regard to the "would you report a child molester" The answer is yes I would. But that is an entirely different case where there is a minor child and victim involved and children need to be protected from harm.
However in this thread there are no victims and no children involved. The sinful acts were done from the fully aware free agency choices of consenting adults. Big difference.
Thus there is no way to pare the child molester hypothesis with the thread but if there were the question would be would one child molester turn in another.
Bottom line is it appears quite probable that had the young woman not found another man, the OP would have reported nothing. Going by sheer human nature, the situation dexcribed and the age of those involved it really looks more like getting revenge rather than protecting the sanctity of the Temple. If I am wrong so be it
If the young woman truly is this sinful temptress, then discussions with the Bishop should perhpas come from a more neutral party which then would also add to the credibility.
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If anyone commits to any religion they should accept the doctrine of the church and the policies of the church. There are plenty of religious organizations and churches that accept homosexuals into their churches, and that even includes some of the more liberal streams of Judaism.
The one comment I would like to make though of two recent incidents is that the Catholic church in it's entirety does not always practice their own policies.
I attended the funeral of an aunt who was a catholic convert late in her life before she died. Communion was served at the funeral service with the priest inviting ALL present to partake per the "wishes of the deseased". So here was a room full of Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Athiests, Jews and Latter Day Saints in this church all invitees to the communion table. Since the priest did not know many of us (we all traveled to the funeral from many out of State destinations) and since I did not know many of the other attendees for all I know there could have been homosexuals in the group. In any event I don't think the Priest seemsed concerned regarding anyone's faith.
Another curious event happened this past Christmas Eve. My husband and I were aboard a cruise ship and on Christmas Eve there was a Catholic midnight Mass service lled by a catholic priest who was introduced to the "congregation" as "Father Frank". The mass weas help in a triple tiered showroom lounge and I would estimate 1,000 people were in attendance. What I found interesting was that when communion was served, not only was it served to everyone attending which many were not catholic; the Priest selected a number of people to help serve the eucharist. One of the people "serving" was a decon in his presberterian church and was "qualified" to assist in serving communion because of his decon status albeit he was not Catholic. Then again neither were many of the cruise line passengers making up this congregation. It was a very interesting cruise. Come to think of it, there were also candle lighting services for Chanukah on the same cruise and a number of the people attending were not Jewish.
Anyway back to Catholic communion. I am sure it is not always enforced who can an cannot partake which makes it a little confusion as to where the Catholic church stands on the issue.
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Eowyn, the proper thing to do would have been to make note of it to the temple presidency. They are responsible for making the determination of worthiness in the temple.
LDSJ, you are assuming too much. You are assuming she has repented, that she's told her fiancee, and that the Easter Bunny will soon appear to bring chocolate and eggs to all the kiddees in fantasy land. It is not our place to judge, only to ensure the Judge in Israel is aware of the situation. Once shared with the bishop, then it is his issue to manage, not ours. And yes, the young man must also confess his own sins, and allow the judge in Israel to determine the best course of action.
Bishops are called of God, but are not mind readers or psychics. We help them by sharing such information and then allowing them to decide how best to handle it.
Rameumptom,
You have a point but are you also judging? Are you assuming that the jilted boyfriend would be telling the truth? I don't know either party here, but it indeed is the responsibility of each individual to tell the truth at all times and of course during their Temple Recommend interview.
No doubt people lie and this may or may not be the case. We do not know. No one knows what is discussed in a Bishops office.
I also do not know or assume she has told her finace. BUT is is the responsibility of the finace or any man or woman before they decide to marry is to thoroughly get to know their future spouse. It is their responsibility, otherwise we would be chosing their free agency for them. If either of them choose to marry based on a lie, they will indeed suffer consequences.
And not assuming but just something to think about ..... if there were no "new guy" in the picture, and if the original relationship had continued and led to marriage, how willing would sm1487 been to go to the Bishop to confess sins? Something to think about.
According to the original post, the girl is a teenager. The two men are RM's and likely perhaps in their early 20's and very young. A lot of emotions are at play here, and I still fee that each person need to be responsibly for their actions and not the others.
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I saw a man in the temple on my wedding day that I know was guilty of sexually abusing someone close to me. Should I have called out his sin and had him thrown out of the temple?
Eowyn, That is a tough one.
The topic of this thread is focused more on two consenting adults going the way of the world and against the church, but they were both guilty and each will need to acccount for it.
The abuse thing is a little tricky, but I cannot see my self pointing fingers in the Temple and having someone thrown out. The contention alone in the Temple just doesn't seem to be right.
Bottom line is truth has a way of catching up. I surely always does. If we get to a point where we focus on wanting to live the gospel because of our love for the Savior and for Heavenly Father, then we will get to the point where our own forgiveness of others is as pure as the forgiveness that we would want when we are doing the repenting.
I think everyone has a good point, but that scripture verse "Judge not lest ye be judged" keep ringing in my ear. :)
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LDSJewess,
I have to clearly disagree with this. If we are aware of sins going on in the Church, it is our responsibility to bring them to the bishop's attention. According to the D&C 20, it is the duty of every teacher and priest to ensure no sin is occurring in our congregations. As an elder, he's also a priest, and is responsible to notify the bishop of this.
Second, to allow her to enter the temple unworthily is to desecrate the temple. If I really consider the temple to be a sacred space, then it is up to me to ensure it remains sacred and not profaned by thoughtless sinners.
He should not take this to the family, but to her bishop (or do it through his own bishop). It is the right thing to do, to prevent evil from continuing.
If an old flame was stealing from people, would you say something to prevent the theft? Or would you just decide she is no longer stealing things with you, and so it is okay? So it is here. He's an accomplice to a major sin, and to not say anything is to prevent some young returned missionary from marrying in the temple to a worthy young lady.
Here are the things I would question though.
If sm1487 is a Priest what are his current qualifications since he too has confessions to make that could make him lose his standing.
Also the young returned missionary who is angaged to her very likely knows. ALthpugh we do not know this for sure, neither do we absolutely know any of this personal business since it can clearly become a lot of "he said she said" when it comes to emotions especially those of people not even out of their teens.
I do agree about your anaolgy of an old flame stealing from people but in this anology this would mean the person reporting these crimes was also stealing
What appears is that sm1487 is not talking about an "old" flame but a flam that is still burning in his own emotions and that he is not wanting to protect the Temple so much as settling the score in some very unfinished business.
I think that when decisions are made as a result of hurt and anger, not much good is going to come of it.
As another psoter said, the girl may very well be working this out with her Bishop. Both she and her finace have made a decision to marry and they both have free agency to make this decision. I am not going to take the decision making responsibility from the new finace either because he is choosing to marry of his free will and it is his repsonsibility to get to know the person he is marrying.
I do wish them all the best.
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I was dating a girl for 4 months and during that time we broke the law of chastity many times and knew it was wrong as I am 24 and an RM. I told her I wasn't worthy anymore and that we needed to stop. She would agree but then break me down at her house begging me to do things with her and I would give in. She turned 18 in August and in september broke off an engagement to a bf she had during high school and then we met and within a week she was talking about marriage with me but I would tell her she needed to experience more and that I needed to be better and wanted to respect her before getting into a serious relationship.
I didn't go out with any other girls but she would go out on dates with others guys but say she only wanted to date me. We slipped up a lot though and kept breaking the law of chastity and we never confessed to a bishop what happened. She kept getting discouraged that I wouldnt get into a relationship with her but I just felt horrible and didnt want her to think that I was getting into a relationship just to be physical with her because I truly did love her. She's the type of girls that is gorgeous and sweet and caring that everyone thinks is the nicest girl in the world, but in private has a different side to her that is very lustful. I wanted her good side and didn't want the other one.
In January I got back from Christmas and we kept dating but this time I would say no to her advances in my car or at her house telling her I wanted to respect her. I finally felt ready to tell her that I loved her and to look towards marriage and confessing our sins to the bishop, but she called me up that night and said she wanted to see where things went with this other guy she had been talking to on skype for the past week and a half that i didn't know about.
I broke down and couldn't talk to her because I was too hurt. 10 days later though I went to talk to her though and told her that I loved her and to not give up on me, but she told me she was in love with this new guy and had gone down to BYU to meet him for the first time over the weekend and that they were soul mates and she received revelation that he was the only one she was meant to be with and was already planning the wedding with his mother.
A week and a half later after Valentine's they were officially engaged after 3 weeks of skype dating and they had announced they would be married in the salt lake temple in June. It's been almost a month now and I havent been able to sleep or eat and don't know what to do. Do i go to her Bishop and tell the truth of all that we did so that she can't get married in the temple and hurt this guy and his family who have no idea about any of this? I mean he just got home from a mission in october and she is suddenly acting all spiritual about the church because his family is very LDS and I don't think she wants this to come out to potentially lose him and the family she has always wanted because she wants to live out her fantasy of marriage so badly. It's deceiving and evil. I'm wondering if i should even try contacting his mother to get her to protect her family and save her son before he kneels across an altar to a girl who is lying and unworthy.
I'm going to tell my bishop everything that happened and yes im scared, but im more worried about her covering this up and possibly hurting a good family. I've seen this exact scenario happen before and it tore a family apart and I don't want to see it happen again.
Please help, what should I do?
What you should do is move on with your life, repent to Heavenly Father of your own sins and then become Temple worthy so that you can meet a worth woman and eventually marry.
Your former girlfriend is marrying someone else. You may be feeling jilted and hurt but telling your Bishop or her future in-laws is not helping or saving anyone. The only thing it will help is your bruised ego.
The girl may or may not have repented but her life now is between her, her and her soon to be husband and Heavenly Father. The fact that both your former girl friend and her future husband met online may or may not have any bearing on the survival of the marriage. But they are at an age of accountability and are responsibly for their choices. You can not be accountable for either of them, only yourself.
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It's all subjective. If you've convinced yourself that taboos exist for some spiritual purpose then that's what you take away from it. It doesn't necessarily mean it's true for everyone. People can experience spiritual insights too even without the need to follow prohibitive rules.
M.
Maureen,
I think you are missing the point of LDS doctrine if you think that the LDS chuirch teached "prohibition."
Quite the opposite. The thing that sets the LDS church apart from many other Christian doctrines is the concept of "free agency." Thus this may very well make the LDs church pro choice (not in the political term), but in teaching members that we indeed have free agency to choose or not to choose and with our choices come personal responsibility.
I do not for a moment think that the things listed in the Words of Wisdom are "taboos" rather just what they are called words of WISDOM.
I was not born in the church and converted in middle age. So yes I have been exposed to and tried tea, coffee and alcohol. None of which I find tasty and do not personally care for the after effects of feeling a sense of acid stomach, jitters, headache or a feeling of dulled senses.
To me the most fun things are feeling radiantly healthy, clear headed, unconjested, freedom from sickness and a sense of calm. These blessings or effects of abstinence from unhealthy things are purely physical and have little bearing on how "spiritual" I feel.
In addition (although not in the words of wisdom) I follow many other dietary laws in scriptures. I do not eat pork or unclean meats, and I eat meat VERY sparingly more as an occasional garnish than an entre. White breads, sugar and junk food are off my list. Although they are not listed in the Words Of Wisdom, it does not take a rocket scientist to see what is healthy and what is not.
Being sick, dull headed, over weight with bellies that exceed the circumference of hips (in a non pregnant state for men and women), sleep disorders, frequent allergies, disgestive issues etc etc etc: are not fun nor are cancer, heart disease, diabetes, arthritis etc:
To discover the fullness of joy which IS FUN, one must follow good health habits. The Word Of Wisdom and other areas of the Holy Scriptures are wise guidelines for us so that while we have free agency we can use our freedom of chice to make wise choices and be happy.
If you are one of the millions of people on this planet that is over weight, spends a lot of time in a doctors office, gets sick often, frequently tired etc: you may want to change your idea of fun and rather than think of wise guidence as prohibition, simply words to live by to be happy and healthy and enjoy life.
Ok I know I am rambling now, but two more thinks:
So often have I heard people have to take a Monday morning off or come to work feeling trashed because they "party-ed" the night before. Some brag about being drunk and say what a great time they had but they were so numb they can't remember much??? So what part was fun?
Secondly to the poster who said it is hard if your friends are not LDS. Not sure I understand this one unless you are a kid in middle school sucjected to peer pressure.
In my own social life I would say maybe 25 to 30 percent of those I socialize with regularly are also members of my church. The remainders are from other clubs and rganizations we belong to, boat club, golf club, the Masons and Shriners (and their ladies counterparts), and my group cluise associates. The majority of my non LDS friends indeed drink alcohol, coffee and smoke. We go to frequent fundraiser dinner dances where the smokers take their break outdoors, those that drink do so. I prefer fresh water with lemon. But we are all socializing, enjoying great food, entertainment and dancing. My husband and I are usually the last to leave when the band stops playing because we tend to have more energy to keep dancing and socializing while the ones that are mellowed from drinking are ready to leave early. And the next morning while they are dealing with their morning after headaches, we are off to go fishing, a great walk in the park, and outing on the beach, or 18 holes of golf.
Not sure about the 6 hours in church. 3 hours is the typical Sunday. But again a lot of that can be fun because we enjoy the talks, the lessons, the interaction and meeting up with our friends.
Bottom line is I suppose there are some that are conditioned to believe what fun is. Each to their own. It all comes down to that personal choce called free agency. :)
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I personally get sick and tired of leaders of church discussions and other members blaming "Satan" for everything bad. "That's Satan tempting you," they say, or "Now that you are particularly vulnerable, watch out for Satan to exploit your weakness." I feel like I am a little kid being warned about a big, bad, monster with horns. It reminds me of a saying that is rather common among gentiles: "It is a mistake to believe there is only one devil." In other words, it is not just Satan who exploits weaknesses and causes bad decisions. If you believe that you are fooling yourself.
LDSCUBSFAN,
In reading this as well as your post about "fun" I think that you somehow are struggling with what the Church views are (or more to the point what your perception of the Church views are), versus your own questions.
I know there are references to the terms: "The Devil Made Me Do it>" And "Jesus saves."
But in reality the Church views are not that cut and dry and ther is a lot more taught about free agency, i.e personal responsibility.
Most of us would agree that we do not perceive the "Devil or Satan" as some guy running around with horns, a red suit and a pitchfork, aby more than we perceive God as a guy dressed in a white robe halos and lightening bolts coming out of his finers, even though some artists have depicted them as such.
On the other hand it is very reasonalbe to agree that there is both good and evil in the world. Everything has an opposite. How could we identify anything as being sweet if bitterness did not esist. Could we recognize energy if there were no fatigue. Would there be love if there were no hate? If something does not have an opposite then how can it be defined that it exists? So there has always been good then there has always been evil.
In the pre existence Satan chose evil. Jesus chose good. Suffice it to say that SAtan is the embodiment of evil whereas Jesus is the embodiment of good.
And so we since the fall of Adam have free agency. The good part about it is that it's a gift. We get to experience life in it's fullness and yes that includes the good part and the evil part. And we get to choose good over evil or vice versa.
I don't see Satan as the guy with the horns making us do anything. Satan chose evil and a good part of Satan's evil nature is being a liar. And these lies would have an entire society of human kind believing lies such as it is "fun" and "good" to drink alcohol, take drugs, smoke, or even engage in malicious gossip, bigotry or hatefullness. Let's face it if you hear the lie often enough you can come to believe the lie.
But if we take a look at it. Anyone here who has ever got drunk or had a hangover, was it REALLY fun? Is it REALLY fun to need a drug or a cigarette full well knowing it is a risk to your health and well being. Is is REALLY fun to gossip? Does it make a person feel good to hate? No never! But the great liar Satan would have you believe that pigs fly and things that are not good for you are "Fun."
So that is where our free agency comes in. We get to choose or not to choose to believe in a lie. And we get to choose also to perpetuate the lies to others or not.
It is not only a gift having free agency, it indeed is our responsibility to use free agency and use it wisely.
And the best part of all is when we get caught up in the lies and screw up even when we strive to do our best, Jesus through his love and goodness and grace goes to bat for us. And the attonement of Christ makes salvation possible.
There is much to be said about the cliche "The truth shall set you free." And the truth is to stop believing the lies and the liar.
There is never fun, joy or enjoyment or peace or any other good thing in lies and evil no matter how much a liar would amke you try and believe that.
But in truth and goodness there is indeed all that we as humans really strive for within the depths of our souls, peace, joy, happiness and love.
Politics in Church arg
in General Discussion
Posted
Margin,
I don't entirely disagree with what yoyu are saying. No doubt a number of people join the church for social reasons. However, if we don't believe in the church doctrine and church policies, why don't become members of another church with more open minded viewpoints. We could become members of a Unity Church, a Unitarian Church or a protestant denomination that remains neutral in issues like these. If I want just a social church I could have stayed a Reform Jew where they are extremily open minded and even hold special Hanukkah parties for gays.
Many people join the LDS church not only because they belief in the restoration of the Gospel but also because they are in agreement with the policies and social morals of the church.
I respect your belief in pro choice even though I do not agree with you, and no I am not likely to glare at you if you made your opinion known in the social setting of the church. And I would also welcome a friendly debate about what joy it is to personally be alive today when had abortion been legal when my mother was pregnant with me I would not be alive to be typing this post.
But aside from what you or I personally believe on this issue; the fact remains that the church policy is not pro choice. Indeed if you had an abortion, you would likely be called to the Bishops office for a counseling and not likely receive a Temple recommend. The same goes for gay marriage. What we think if we are members may not matter in a general social discussion peoviding we are not gay and wanting to be married; since by doing so wound revoke our membership and at the very least have us on probation with the church.
So you see you may feel unwelcome and unaccepted, but in fact if you actually acted on your belief the church may not fully accept you as a worthy member. Is is the way it is.
I get that we all want to feel welcome and accepted, but I have to ask myself would I convert to Islam even when I do not agree with their policies for social reasons? The answer is no.
So what I am saying is, I think it is very fair to have ope discussions among members in a social setting so long as it is not in sacrament meeting or planned Sunday school lessons.
If we don't, many joining for "social reasons" may not know how the church stands on political/socieo policy. Otherwise the church would simply appear to sweep their policies under the table for the sake of getting more members coming in for social reasons. Where would that end though?