Stealth3si

I'd like to quickly digress an unrelated issue here an atheist address to me earlier: According to today's moral standard, the Old Testament in the bible contains violent stories where God instructed His people to 'harshly' treat their neighbors. My response was God never condoned those immoral things. Other than the reason that God had a higher purpose for instructing His people to do those 'immoral' things, how did God justify His motives, not that I doubt His reasons for doing so?

Just wanted to know how you like to be called. most catholics like to be called catholics, protestants generally prefer Christian ....and according to the LDS sample here like to be called Mormons. I suppose it'd be awkward if people addressed you as, "So you're an LDS?" or "A couple of LDS's visited me yesterday."

Which of these do you prefer to be called personally if an atheist/agnostic/apatheist approached you? 1. Christian 2. LDS 3. Mormon 3. Restorationist 4. Other ______________ Appreciate your answer. I would go into other forum sections but not too many people there.

Judging from what you've guys just said, you think I'm here to trash your religion or something? You can put your shields away coz that's not what i'm here for. By now the serious theological dance, as AK put it, is over. I'm just conversating to you guys not as intellectual theologians but as normal people. If you wanna make satrical jokes against me that's fine. I can take it. As long as it's all for fun and respectful, but not uptight. If you wanna put up with me and take my punches, that is if you can, then continue making your nonsensical comments against me. But if you all have something better to do than to have pointless conversation with someone like me who isn't in your click - fine by me. Personally, I don't mind if you close this thread -- you'd be doing me a favor. Personally, i enjoy mindless conversations from time to time. It doesn't have to be all intellectual and sophisticated conversations all the time like you guys expect it to be. AND IT DOESN"T MATTER HOW OLD YOU ARE PEOPLE. if you're the type of person who can't hold on to a bold conversation with someone from a different planet, then what can I do? It doesn't hurt to have a conversatino with people who are different than you. In fact, i enjoy pushing people's button who are totally different from me, because it gives the chance to see what kind of online etiquette they have and how they react. All in all, sometimes I give people a hard time just to see how they'll react, not that I like giving people hard time. Now your turn.

Why? I've already learned that you often use salvation and exaltation interchangeably. Well make up your mind. Mean what you really say. Did I soak your carpets there? oops. [splat splat] Why are you so adament about my own age? Do you have an age-complex or something? Or are you that old that you want to communicate with a younger person it'll make you feel young again? Well I'm glad I could be of service to you. BTW, will you send me a picture of you and Jesus. You're still here?

FYI, I WAS here to learn.. until you all started bashing on me then I had to be on the defensive side. Don't make me take out my sword now. What is it like 4 on 1? Why? Do I talk like a female or something? If you wanted to know whether I'm a male or female just ask straight out in the open forum dood. There's no reason to PM me.

Then take your business elsewhere. B) ..oh wait, this IS the only place where you can take your business to. My bad. With all those hundreds of posts you've got up there, you gotta be doing damage control to your keyboard there.

I get that a lot. .... FYI, a slight change in a meaning of a word can offset the entire concept. If you were on a plane headed from LA to NY and you were an eigth of a mark off, you'd end up hundreds of miles away from your destination buddy. Would you feed to your kids a plate of healthy food that had one drop of cyanide in the corner of the plate? No you wouldn't. So neither should you describe a concept to someone and change the meaning of a word, even though it seems minute. You guys have different definitions for the same biblical words (even regular words) that Christians use, so it VERY IMPORTANT to have perfectly clear communication or else we might end up running in circles. But if you want to give double meanings to words then use them to describe the same concept, then good luck ---- because you'll have a hard time recruiting other people, let alone explain to them what you believe. That's my two cents.

It's hard to come to a common ground if we differ in other theological areas. Maybe, maybe not --- that's subjective. But that doesn't change the fact that you guys just tripped over each other. 1.) So you give back to Him through your obedience because Jesus has died for you and instructed you to obey Him (if you love Him). You do "works" because you love Him and because He died for you and saved you from hell, and NOT the other way around where you do "works" to earn His love or His approval to die for you and to save you from hell. At this point, nothing you've done has earned you anything, but everything you've done is credited to God. It is because of Jesus and what He done on the cross that allowed you to do all the things you've done, not to mention that Jesus commanded you to do so anyways. But just because Jesus says that you must do all these things if you love Him doesn't mean that "works" justify us in front of God's eyes. Jesus was pointing out that a true living faith in Him means that it will produce works. That's why He said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Jesus was really saying, "If you truly have faith, then you will obey Me." IOW, true living faith cannot exist without righteous works to back it up. Jesus made a point that without works, faith is dead. Jesus wasn't saying we have the right to "prove" ourselves in front of God, even if Jesus Himself commanded us to obey Him. We "prove" ourselves to God simply by being associated with Jesus (the covenant relationship that He's our Lord and we're His servant). Everything else that comes out of that relationship, like obedience, is to confirm that relationship. But when you talk about attaining to a Celestial glory, you're talking about what qualifies you to attain Celestial glory.2.) So now all the work you've done under Jesus's name is now used to "qualify yourselves" to attain one of the three glories of heaven, and in this case, it is the Celestial glory. Not that you're using your previous works to earn anything but now you're using it to share in God's glory, to qualify yourself a seat in the celestial heaven. No matter how many terminology twists and theological spins you put on it, in the end you eventually earned it. The captain on the boat didn't do the all the work previously to become a captain, he just did it because it was his job at the time, whatever job he held. And now, with all the experience he's invested in, he now qualifies for better jobs. But in the end he earned it, even through his qualifications he earned that spot, no matter how many logical reasons you put in it. If I get hired or promoted because i'm qualified for it by being just me or who I am without my effot, then I haven't earned it. It was just given to me freely. But if I get hired or promoted because I qualified for it through good work ethics, job experience, or through a Bachelor's degree, then that means I've earned it, period. The entire purpose of Jesus saying: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind and strength. This is the greatest commandment." and "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." is to instruct us on how to worship Him; those instructions are there to give all the glory to Him, not to later qualify ourselves to attain our own glory. We are never to share God's glory, but we are to bask and bathe IN His glory, not to cut a small peice of His glory and put it on our head. Otherwise, attaininging glory is taking away God's glory. Why? Because God deserves all the glory, and all glory is due to Him. Without Him, we would not exist. Without His gift of free will, we would not have to choice to be with or against Him. The whole purpose of God creating life, Adam and Eve, allowing good and evil to exist, saving us from our sin through Jesus's death on the cross and His plan of redemption for mankind is to glorify Himself, is to say to all His creation that He alone deserves all the glory and credit. And God chooses to glorify Himself by creating us (including angels) and having a relationship with us, so that in the end He knows that we love Him and we know he is our God who deserves all the glory and praise. Everything we do should be done and used for the purpose to give glory to God and only Him, not to ourselves. You can't use Jesus's work on the cross to glorify yourself; that's not right. It is like using Jesus's work on the cross as in investment and the product of that investment is works and obedience. And so you use what you've gained from your "worship" of Jesus Christ to qualify yourself to one of the glories of heaven. God never intended for us to glorify ourselves in anyway, even it if is to glorify Him, because that would be taking a part of God's glory and puttint it upon yourself. If you had read verses 29 -31 in context of Mark 12, the first commandment Jesus is talking about is how we are to treat God. It summarazes the first five commandments of Moses's Ten Commandments because the first five deal with our relationship to God. The second commandment Jesus is talking about how we treat other people, including our selves. It summarizes the second half of Moses's Ten Commandments because the second half deal with our relationship with other people and ourselves. Hence: 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. So what does Jesus say about how we deal with God? We give Him all the glory by worship, praise, obedience, works, surrendering our whole self to Him, including our hearts, mind and strength, and the whole enchilda. It's not about us, it's about Him. And so Jesus tells us HOW to do just that. But instead, you've given God everything BUT a little part of your heart. Against Him, a human's heart will use Jesus's instructions of worshipping Him, to qualify oneself a Celesital glory, his own glory, to share with God. Jeremiah said that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" So what does Jesus say about how we deal with people, including ourselves? Well for one thing, He doesn't say we are to glorify ourselves or exalt ourselves into Gods. He tells us to love ourselves the way God would, the way Jesus would. Jesus said we are to treat ourselves the same way He would treat us if He were living among us as humans, which He did. God wants us to be IN His glory but God would never glorify us or allow us to share in His glory or have our own glory, so what gives us that right? All the glories in the world and universe, heavens and all of time belong to God. Why? Because it is in His nature as God or diety. If I was a God, all the glory would go to me and everything else is submitted to me because the very basic nature and definition of God demands just that. Is that selfish? No, because that is what being a God is all about. But Satan could not stand being second place so he decided in his prideful heart thah he had to be a God. God Himself says there is no other God but Himself and if anyone wants to challenge Him then God will chin-check them, just like He did with Satan. Christians and Mormons differ in the nature of God and how many Gods there are, among other major doctrines as well, not to mention what the gospel is, but that's not what we're here for. I don't see why it is necesary to depend upon a cooperative effort with God to have your sins forgiven which is, essentially, combining the filthy works of man (Isaiah 64:6) with the holy work of God. They don't mix. They can't. But I hope you understand that because we differ in the major doctrinal concepts it is hard to come to a common ground, period. Please understand that I am not here to bash on you guys. Don't take it personally. I believe you are lost and I do not want you to go to hell. What ever I am I am by the Grace of God. I want you to find the real and loving Jesus who can fill your heart with His salvation.

Thank you. I try to keep it short as possible. You are misusing words and misapplying them to mean something else. But I know what you're basically saying, you feel so indebted to God you feel the need to owe Him back through your actions and responsibilities. But remember Jesus Christ said “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:25-30)And what you say? “ The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." James 3:8 Wow. That's very righteous of you. And what about yourself?"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ." (Galatians 1:6-10) of course, you can NOT just do whatever you want. We've already established that long ago in the thread. Does this mean that those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?" 1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification." The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (1 John 1:8). But the war between the saved and his sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20) and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To continually seek sin and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). (Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.) WOW this is the first time I've seen two people of the same religion accidentally condtradicted each other in the defense of their own religion. WOW. This is going in my books -- for sure.

"Earn" is not the same thing as "qualify for." I don't believe we "earn" exaltation. Before I go further, confirm that you understand what I'm saying there. Then why did Desire say you EARN celestial glory? Exaltation is the same as celestial glory because they BOTH are in the Celestial Heaven. Whether you are exalted as a God or have celestial glory, you travel on the same road. So which road is it? The road fo "earning" it or the road of "qualifying for" it. At first, yes "Earn" and "qualify for' are different. To PROPERLY "qualify for" something there has to be an inserted object that satisfies the condition. What inserted object, you ask? The inserted object I'm talking about is a word/term/statement that denotes the act of BEING. OTHERWISE, inserting a word/term/statement that denotes the act of DOING invalideates the "qualify for" statement and essentially makes itself to be the same as "Earn" statement. For example, ______________ qualifies for Godhood. The blank line should have an object that is an act of BEING to validate the "qualify for" statement. An act of DOING will invalidate the "qualify for" statement and make it essentially the same as "EARNING" it. state/act of BEING is like faith, association with someone, permanent characteristic, a position, title or rank, something that does not require ACTION on our part state/act of DOING is like works, obedience, to be actively doing something, something that requires ACTION on our part. Here's the catch: 1.) if the blank line is a state of being, like faith, then "Earn" and "qualify for" are different. Why? BEING faithful to qualify for Godhood is NOT the same as BEING faithful to "EARN" Godhood. 2.) BUT IF THE blank line is a state of DOING, like works, then "Earn" and "qualify for" are the same. Why? Using the terms "works" and obedience to "qualify for" Godhood is essentially the same as DOING works to "EARN' Godhood because "works" and obedience is used to denote the act of DOING not the act of BEING. 3.) IF a blank line is both a state of BEING and DOING, like faith AND works, then "Earn" and "qualify for" are the same. Why? BEING faithful and DOING works to "qualify for" Godhood is the same as BEING faithful and DOING works to "Earn" Godhood. In other words, if we need to DO anything on our part to "qualify for" anything, even lifting our fingers or applying our efforts to the equation, then THAT IS THE SAME AS EARNING IT. WHY? Because they are all STATE OF DOING, NOT BEING. The proper way to "qualify for" something is to insert a state of being (like faith, or a characteristic). Whenver you insert a state of doing (like works or obedience) then you are twisting the "qualify for" statement into a "EARN" statement. I believe Faith and works should be together. But when you take both of them and use it as a "qualify for" statement, then you are invalidating the "qualify for" statement, therfore, making it essentially the same as "EARN" statement. But it depends on what your definition of "Earn" and "qualify for" are. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Earn (Verb) to earn (third-person singular simple present earns, present participle earning, simple past earned, past participle earned); "earnt" is incorrect 1. (transitive) to gain (success) through applied effort or work 2. (transitive) to receive (money) for working 3. (transitive) to deserve (something) 4. (intransitive) to receive money for working Qualify (Verb) to qualify (qualified, qualified) 1. to describe or characterize something by listing its qualities 2. to make someone, or to become competent or eligible for some position or task 3. to certify or license someone for something 4. to modify, limit, restrict or moderate something 5. to compete successfully in some stage of a competition and become eligible for the next stage --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So which one are you referring to?

But ApostleKnight just said you don't earn exaltation (or in your case, celestial glory). But then again he said "works" and obedience is requried for salvation. And I don't know if he used the world 'salvation' to mean exaltation/celestial glory. So I'll wait for what he has to say about what you just said. Besides, why are you answering for him anyway? I thought you stopped posting in here.

I dislike being called a Mormon because it makes my religion and faith seem focused on a disciple, not the Savior. Mormon was a prophet, and a mighty man, but a man nonetheless. Consider how a Christian would feel if they were called "Pauls" or "Peters" because of their belief in the New Testament. Sure those men were great disciples, but they aren't the Savior and it'd be irresponsible to reduce their faith to the name of one disciple. I don't like it because of that, and it leaves out the part that we are all saints doing out best to live the commandments... Glad to see you're on a band-wagon again. I'm just speculating here, but what was so special about Mormon the prophet that gave all of you guys the nickname "Mormons"? What was his role in the presentation of your new gospel? Was he the one who brought you the news? I thought Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism.

I don't see why you're avoiding my questions because they're real simple. There's no need to analyze them. The reason why I ask again is to make sure we are on the same page. Haven't you noticed by now that our understanding of terminology is important to our communication? Forgive me if I sound a little pretentious just for the sake of eye-to-eye communication. Just answer them please, otherwise, you're allowing me to draw conclusions based on what you say. And I hope they're right.So let me get this straight: You don't earn exaltation (godhood) but you do "works" and obedience because you love Him, etc. Yet you said "works" and obedience is required to qualify for salvation (or exaltation)? Please clarify that one for me. :)

OK your definitino is much more easier to understand. The wikipedia's definition was a little tedious to understand. So let me get this straight. The LDS started out as a movement but eventually became a religion in its own right, as LDS and the LDS church, while still holding the informal nickname, "Mormons". FYI, every religion in this world started out as movement and became a religion.Commonly, I've seen the LDS and Community of Christ buildings before but I've never expected there to be so many different denominatinos. Why did Wikipedia include all those denomonations? Could it be that those denominations once existed but no longer exist? Whatever maybe, so basically Mormons, LDS and Community of Christ are all theologically under the same religion in its own right today, yet all three are on different belts, for lack of a better term, because of minor issues? The exception is that Mormons now is informally what LDS and Community of Christ are called or labeled by, as you put it, "misinformed", people. Please remember that people do NOT use Mormon in a derogorative manner to insult you or degrade. It is simply a term used to identify you, despite its negative connotation in past history. So why do some LDS prefer not to be called Mormons while others are laid back about it? I mean it's not like "Mormon" refers to a particular race of people in a negative manner.

What do you mean by salvation? Salvation as bodily ressurection or salvation as exaltation to a god? That's alot of buts. If I understand your compound question, I'd say that those who abide in Christ are those who've experienced a change in their hearts, and that it is to these souls who are sanctified by Christ's blood that a fulness of eternal joy and glory will be given. I don't know if that's what you're asking. Yes. That's what I'm asking. When you say, "that it is to these souls who are sanctified by Christ's blood that a fulness of eternal joy and glory will be given", are you saying that they will be given a fullness of eternal joy and glory because of the true faith they have demonstrated through "works" and obedience? OR do you mean that true faith is demonstrated by "works" and obedience because they are given a fullness of eternal joy and glory? Also, what about exaltation or godhood? Do you practice "works" and obedience because you will become exalted or a god? OR do you practice "works" and obedience to become exalted or a god?

So are you saying "works" or obedience is 1.) not a requirement of abiding in Christ but a natural process of having true faith in Christ but 2.) a requirement for exaltation (Godhood)? Now I'm using the term salvation to imply the term exaltation -- to become a God.

Sheesh. I had a hunch somewhere down the thread that we we running in circles because of terminology differences. Either way, whether its mere modily resurrection or exaltion to Godhood, my question was, is it like a job where you attain some sort of status (resurrection or Godhood), whether it is by God's help or not, or both God's and our works? That's my point --- you've never given me a clear distinction between them in any of the posts. You seem to be blurring the meanings of the two terms by using the Mormon gospel and misappling the truths taught in God's word. But that is besides the point. Is getting salvation (resurrection or Godhood or whatever other status there may be I'm missing) like a job?You've never given me a clear answer on what the gospel is, but since we're not here to discuss the doctrine of gospels, unless you want to, we're here to discuess the topic of salvation and how one receives it. When I say salvation, I mean being being declared righteous, whether you have bodily ressurection or Godhood. So do you receive salvation by obtaining/attaining it like a job? Simple yes or no. How are you declared righeteous in front of God? by faith and works? and then how do you receive bodily ressurection and Godhood? by works right?

Stealth3si what is the difference between Mormon and LDS? Mormon is a colloquial term used to refer to adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement, and most commonly to the movement's original and largest group, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons consider themselves devout Christians and believe The Book of Mormon to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Many denominations within the Latter Day Saint movement have disavowed the term. Mormonism is a religion, movement, ideology, and subculture that originated in the early 1800s as a product of the Latter Day Saint movement led principally by Joseph Smith, Jr. It is self-described as a form of Christian Restorationism and it encompasses numerous religious denominations. Mormonism is distinct from the Latter Day Saint movement in that it applies to a subset of the branches of that movement. The term Mormonism is also often used to refer specifically to the theology and subculture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the largest of many church organizations that claim to be part of Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, is the largest and best-known denomination within the Latter Day Saint movement and is self-described as the restoration of the original Christian church. That's from the Wikipedia. But that's a good question deserved to be answered either by a real Mormon or LDS or you can take my word for it. Whether you prefer Mormom or LDS or Community of Christ, Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, New Order Mormon, or other denomination, you're all under the LDS movement, or much widely known as "Mormonism", whether you prefer to be called it or not, to the rest of the world. The people who stopped at my house we're probably LDS because they seem like they emphasized Jesus and they wore the infamous white shirt ,black tie and black slacks, back pack and bicycle.

It's obvious that you are blurring the meaning between both by interchanging them. Or I could be wrong about your views. So what are your views on both and how they apply to your gospel, otherwise I'll elaborate on difference between the two and how each apply to the bible. But oh yeah you also use Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price as well as part of your doctrine, which lead to this verse: (Gal. 1:8-9). But that is besides the point. What are your views on both? I would like to know. :) Earlier you did not assert your views on justification/sanctification when I clearly indicated that you may be confusing between those two, which tells the reader that you were unable (at that time) to correlate with your gospel and the two, let alone differienate between the two. But at the same time you may have missed it while reading the posts I don't have any preconceived notions about what you beleive that's why I ask so many questions about your belief system, but since I didn't get clear answers for all of them, and I don't expect you to due to our different terminologies, I had to give myself the benefit of the doubt and have you clarify them for me. But here is my very brief view on your beliefs and please correct me if I'm wrong.BIBLE - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible. SALVATION - Simple bodily resurrection. It does not simply mean forgiveness of sins. Jesus died for universal resurrection. HEAVEN - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else. KINGDOM OF GOD - Celestial Heaven HOLY GHOST - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity." ETERNAL LIFE - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom. GODHEAD - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god. JESUS - Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. ATONEMENT - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins. PRE-EXISTENCE - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father before we became human. So I ask you again, what is the gospel, according to your religion? As you can see I just used a generalized list so you don't have to give an elaborate answer unless you want to.

Of course you don't know. How can you? But to answer your question: Observation, my friend, observation. I'm doing you a favor buddy because sometimes we need an outside perspective on things. You'd be pleasently surpised at what you'd find out when a good friend is looking in from the outside. :) LDS gospel. What is the gospel? Englighten me. Please. I think you're right when you say we're running around in circles here. But first, what you do think about the theif on the cross and his salvation? I just wanna know what's your doctrine on that.Anyways, we might be on different understandings between justification and sanctifiations in this topic. I hope we can be little clearer on these two terms, so here is Justifiation/sanctification 101: (BTW, i've inserted the biblical references for your curiosity but you don't have to look them or read them. You can take my word for it. :)) Justification is the process by which sinful human beings are made acceptable to a holy God. Christianity is unique because of its teaching of justification by grace (Rom. 3:24). Justification is God's declaration that the demands of His Law have been fulfilled in the righeousness of His Son. The basis of this justification is the death of Christ. Justification is based on the work of Christ, accomplished throught His blood (Rom. 5:9), and brought to His people through His resurrection (Rom. 4:25). When God justififes, He charges the sin of man to Christ and credits the righteousness of Christ to the believer (2 Cor. 5:21). Thus, "through one Man's righterous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life" (Rom. 5:18). Because this righteousness is the "righteousness of God" which is "apart from the law" (Rom. 3:21), it is thorough; a believer is "justified from all things" (Acts 13:39). God is "just" because His holy standard of perfect righterousness has been fulfilled in Christ, and He is the "justifier", because this righteousness is freely given to the believer (Rom. 3:26; 5:16). Although the Lord Jesus has paid the price for our justification, it is through our faith that He is received and His righteousness is experienced and enjoyed (Rom. 3:25-30). Faith is considered righteousness (Rom. 4:3, 9), not as the work of human beings (Rom. 4:5), but as the gift and word of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil 1:29) Sanctification is the process of God's grace by which the believer is separated from sin and becomes dedicated to God's righeteousness. Accomplished by the Word of God (John 17:7) and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:3-4), sanctification results in holiness, or purification from the guilt and power of sin. Sanctification as separation from the world and setting apart for God's service is a concept found throughout the Bible. Spoken of as "holy" or "set apart" in the Old Testament were the land of Canaan, the city of Jerusalem, the tabernacle, the Temple, the Sabbath, the feasts, the prophets, the prisests, and the garments of the priests. God is sanctified by the witness of believers (1 Pet. 3:15) and by His judgments upon sin (Ezek. 38:16). Jesus also was "sanctified and sent into the world" (John 10:36). As the process by which God purifies the beleiver, sanctification is based on the sacrifical death of Christ. In his letters to the chrurches, the apostle Paul noted that God has "chosen" and "reconciled" us to Himself in Christ for the purpose of sanctification (Eph. 1:4); Titus 2:14). because our cleansing from sin is made possible only by Christ's death and resurrection, we are "sanctified in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor. 1:2, 1 Cor. 1:30; 6:11). Numerous commands in the bible imply that believers also have a responsibility in the process of sanctification. We are command to "be holy" (Lev. 11:44; 1 Pet. 1:15-16); to "be perfect" (Matt. 5:48); and to "present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness" (Rom. 6:19). These commands imply effort on our part. We must believe in Jesus, since we are "sanctified by faith in Him" (Acts 26:18). Through the Holy Spirit we must also "put to death the evil deeds of the body" (Rom. 8:13). Paul itemized the many "works of the flesh" from which we must separate ourselves (Gal. 5:19-21). Finally, we must walk in teh Spirit in order to display the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-24). So, as you can clearly see ApostleKnight, this is where your works and obedience is supposed to come in but instead you're associating them with "Justification" instead of justification.

That was an open-ended question, meaning I was not asserting my or your belief in that literal sense, merely a consideration. What I mean is the act of obedience itself doesn't cleanse us of sin but it certainly does affect what portion of cleansing grace is active in our life. :) That's an interesting way to look at the story in that perspective. The above Matthew story, particularly, verse 21, does not teach salvation by works (see Rom. 3:23, 24: Eph. 2:8, 9). Rather Jesus was proving the error of the man's claim to have fulfilled God's Law (v. 20). If the young man loved his neighbor to the extent requried by the Law of Moses (v. 19; Lev. 19:18), he would have had no difficulty in givng away his wealth to needy people. If God's commandments include confessing our sins and admitting He is our Lord and Savior and all that other stuff that unbelievers must go through to receive eternal life/salvation, and we are to obey those commandments, then, yes, that obedience to God's commandments is required to receive eternal life/salvation. But if you're talking about simply being obedient to God, then how can an unbeliever obey God if he doesn't believe in God, unless he chooses to believe in God, which is in itself a work of faith. A Christian believer who has just received eternal life/salvation, by an act of faith (confessing, among other things, that Jesus's work on the cross is enough to grant him salvation), can do nothing more to earn it, even through works of Christ or obedience to God's commandments. But works of Christ and obedience to God's commandments are done because one has already received salvation. But salvation is not a one time thing, where we receive it and it's all good (this is where Desire was getting at earlier). Salvation, according to Christian teaching, is a continous process, and that is where works of faith and obedience to God's comandments come in to ensure our salvation. "Ensure" as in to confirm, make sure, and "work out". But that does not mean we can add anything more to eternal life/salvation with "works" and "obedience to God's commandents", but "works" and "obedience to God's commandments" serves as a function that must be active in our relatinship with God for the sake of salvation. According to Christian teaching, we can not lose our salvation once we have "presently" received eternal life but we can throw it all away by forsaking God altogether through our total disobedience and absence of "works". No. Between those two interpretation, I was, and rather be, choosing the ladder. What I am informed of the LDS position is that you are not saved until you do all the good works as much as you can possibly can, and then you are saved by Jesus alone. If that is really the case for you, then is it like a job where you have to work your way up to earning salvation? By obedience to God's commandments, are you saying that hearing what God has to say and actually listening to it is necessary to have God give us unmerited favor (which is BTW grace)? I totally agree. We can be forgiven of our sins but that doesn't mean we are cleansed of it unless we start obeying. Of course, now you're making a little more sense. In order for us to receive salvation, it is on our part to put in effort to receive it. So my question is now, do your efforts add to the gift of salvation or is it part of the process of continous salvation? I say the process of contnous salvation because i want to make it clear that active salvation requires active works and obedience, while we still have the choice to drop works and obedience and salvation alltogether. I can't answer that question because you're not clear on reading what I'm saying. Jesus's point is that we are justified by faith alone, on the basis of His work on the cross, yet we are justified by works, on the basis of us being sanctified in God, as in being set apart for God's service. I.E. to cleanse sin or deny our "flesh" we do good works and obey His commandments. Since justification is a statement from God declaring, on the basis of Jesus' atonement for our sins, that we are innocent, how can we suppose that there is anything we can do to add to it? Can we somehow become more innocent? Can we somehow add to the price Jesus has already paid? Yes, we do good works because that is what Christians do. Painters paint, carpenters work with wood, concrete finishers finish concrete, pilots fly planes, Christians do God's will. You do what you are but what you do does not change what you are. Sanctification, being based on Christ's work on the cross, is a living active process by which God purifies the believer. This is where we are justified by works and obedience to God's commandments, in the sense of responsibility, as a believer. To recap (and I hope my choice of words arent' confusing you), faith without works is dead but works are NOT the basis for justification. Works are the logical and necessary by-product of faith, but they are not the basis for salvation. Of course we must obey to be saved! The bible says that if we beleive in Jesus then we will be saved. That in itself is obeying God. But I hope you understand that obedience and works add nothing to the gift of salvation but they are both a part of the process of active living salvation.ApostleKnight said: "p.s. The end of the Matthew 19 passage I cited gives one more clue...Jesus taught what Paul would later teach in 1 Cor. 13...even if we obey and have faith, if we don't love as Christ loved, and follow his example of kindness and charity...we cannot be saved." I agree.

OK -- we're on the same page. :) Every now and then, Mormons or LDS, dont' know which one they are, but most likely LDS, come visit my house. I'll try to remind myself to get a copy from them next time. B)

I'm not an English major but by now you should know what I mean when I say "aside from this" as the same as "besides this". So let me rephrase that "...besides faith..." "..besides from the dealing..." Either way one should easily grasp my main point.

That's an interesting way to put it. I agree "good works" is a natural result of something and that "works" is just as important as faith but not being done for its own sake. Christians believe works is a natural result of real genuine faith, which is dead without the confirmation of works. However, obeying Christ and doing works isn't what saves or justifies you and me --- it's God alone who saves/justifies us and makes us righteous through our own volitional confession of Christ as our Lord BUT we obey Christ and do works because we are saved, because we have genuine faith and because He is our Lord, not the other way around, so that our hearts, which Jeremiah puts it, is desperately wicked and deceitful and cannot be trusted, will not guide our actions, or works, to get the Lord's approval.Are you confusing the difference between justification and sanctification? please correct me if I'm wrong. Justification is our legal declaration by God upon on us, sinners, that we are declared righteous in His sight. Could this be where faith plays into our justification? Sanctification is the process we go through and our lives where the Holy Spirit makes us more like Jesus. Could this be where good works play into? The question, then, is how are you justified? how are you made righteous in God's site? I lovingly request that you read Romans chapters 3-5 and Galatians 3-5. It is these chapters that speak of this issue. I hope that if you read them you will see that the third article on your Church is in contradiction to God's word. What ever I am I am by the Grace of God, not by my own merit. But by my merit I can be sure that God alone justifies me, I belong to Him, that I can be sanctified into Him and that my merit will be judged for any rewards in heaven (if there are any). Am I making any sense here? You are going to believe what you believe and there's no way I can convert or convince you through logic, intellectual traps, or proof texts otherwise but I'm here to shed some light on why Christ alone is the only one who can justify our salvation, not by works. Again, I'm not saying works is useless it's as importnat in the equation as faith. If we must pursue salvation by works (besides faith [there you go]), then would that mean Jesus's gruesome death on the cross isn't enough to save/justify us? That when He said "It is done", he meant half of His work was done and that we are to pick up His slack? That what our loving Lord has done on the cross for us is insufficient and that we are to complete His work through our works? Are we finishing God's work (to justify/save ourselves) of what Jesus started on the cross but couldn't complete? Wow. Did Jesus Christ suffer and die on the cross so that we may continue His work in saving oursevles or did He suffer and die on the cross so that we may santcify ourselves by His example? That being said, you see, one of the basic differences between Christianity and Mormonism aside from the dealings with God and His nature, is how we are forgiven of our sins. Yes, we are to keep his Commandments, but we are not saved by keeping those Commandments. This is clearly taught in the book of Romans chapters 4 and 5. In fact, the third article of your Church contradicts the book of Romans and Ephesians and Galatians which all teach justification by faith alone. It's useless talking to you because you believe what you believe. You wont' be converted. You can't be. But I'm here to shed some light on why Christ would be the only one who can justify our salvation, not by works. Again, I'm not saying works is useless it's as importnat in the equation as faith.