Stephen

Trinity versus the Godhead in LDS accepted scriptures! This paper is also titled: The effects of cognitive dissonance! First of all one needs to understand the difference between the Biblical Trinity and the LDS Godhead. The Bible recognizes: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as distinct individuals that comprise the one eternal God. The LDS Godhead is: three separate gods that are one in purpose. The purpose of this paper is to demonstrate that the books that Mormons accept as scriptures teach the Trinity and the Godhead. The difference between the Biblical Trinity and the Mormon Godhead is too contradictory to reconcile as one soon realizes as these scripture verses are studied and compared. I will only use scripture references to establish the points that I set out to prove in this paper. Both the Bible and the following L.D.S. scriptures will be used in this paper which books are: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine&Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. The first point is: Jesus Christ is one with God the Father: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him”(John 14:23). “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me”(John 15:26). “At that day ye shall know that I(Jesus) am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”(John 14:20). “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”(John 14:8-10). This is also clearly shown in the Book of Mormon: .......and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil”(Alma 12:44). “And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, I verily say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one”(3Nephi 11:27). “And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of Dod, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- The Father because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son- And they are one God, yea the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth”(Mosiah 15:1-4). We can see from the above quoted verses that Book of Mormon itself affirms that: the Father and the Son are one God, yea the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. Why don’t members of the LDS Church believe it? This is also clearly taught in the Doctrine&Covenants: “Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen”(Doctrine&Covenants 20:28). “And the Father and I are one. I am in the Father and the Father in me; and inasmuch as ye have received me, ye are in me and I in you”(Doctrine&Covenants 50:43). The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”(1John 5:8). “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”(Colossians 2:8-9). This clearly teaches that: The Father and the Holy Ghost are found bodily in Jesus Christ. For the fullness of the Godhead is found bodily in Jesus Christ. “And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen”(2Nephi 31:21). L.D.S. scriptures also teach that there is many gods and that Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Ghost are three separate Gods: “According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved for the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his eternal rest”(Doctrine&Covenants 121:32). “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us”(Doctrine&Covenants 130:22). “Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods”(Doctrine&Covenants 132:37). “And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth after it was desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and the darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the waters. And they(the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light. And they(the Gods) comprehended the light for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness. And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until the morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning of that which they called day and night. And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters”(Abraham 4:1-6). It is the opinion of the writer of this paper that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are in a tough dilemma. Do you believe the Bible and Book of Mormon are scriptures which clearly teach that God is Trinity by nature? These three...the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God without end! Or do you believe the Doctrine&Covenants and Book of Abraham when those books teach polytheism? The Doctrine&Covenants and Book of Abraham recognize the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost as Gods. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that there are many gods and that humans can become gods. What do Mormons believe when there own scriptures contradict each other? “And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of the priesthood; and it shall be said unto them- Ye shall come froth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths- Then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world: and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them”(Doctrine&Covenants 132: 19-20). To Christians only God has all power and only God is above all and all things are subject unto him including the whole human race. Yet to Mormons they can become Gods and have all power given unto them! One can only hope that one day they will believe what the Bible clearly teaches about God. Also Mormons should accept what the Book of Mormon clearly teaches about God which is accepted by Mormons as the most correct book on earth and clearly teaches that God is Trinity!

Interestingly enough the Book of Mormon talks about in what way Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I wonder how many Mormons actually believe this. "And now Abinidi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected himself to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son"(Mosiah 15:1-3).

I don't see it as specious. Do you consider it specious because it compares the figurative to the literal?Melchizedek who was looked at as without a beginning or end because we don't have any record of when he was born or when he died is compared to Jesus Christ who literally had no beginning of days and literally has no end of life! We all(Protestants and Mormons) consider the bread to be symbolic of the body of Jesus Christ and the wine(water) to be symbolic of the blood that Jesus Christ shed for us. Is that specious to believe because it is comparing the literal to the symbolic? Does something literal have to be compared to something else that is literal or it is specious? Jesus Christ said: "the bread is his body and the wine is his blood." The Catholics believe that Jesus Christ meant that literally and would probably think you are specious for believing it is symbolic in that the bread represents the body of Jesus Christ and the wine represents the blood of Christ. The Catholics take those Bible verses very literally in that they believe that the bread of communion literally turns into the body of Jesus Christ and the wine literally turns into the blood of Jesus Christ. As I said before: "I don't see how Melchizedek is an imperfect example.........there is no genealogical record of who Melchizedek's mother and father were and that meant alot to the Jewish people. If you could not prove your origin genealogically they looked at you in a demeaning way and regarded you as if you had no origin. If you could not prove by your genealogical pedigree that you qualified to be priest in the levitical priesthood then even if you did rightly deserve to be a priest if you could not prove it then the Jews rejected you. The author of the Book of Hebrews seemed to think it was a great comparison too since that comparison was made. The Son of God is without father and without mother as the scriptures say........I don't know how I can get any more literal than accepting what the Bible literally says."

One must also realize that if Mormon Doctrine was easy to pin down then there would not be so much confusion regarding.......what is "official LDS doctrine". People would have a clear cut understanding and there would not be the confusion.

The Greek word for "only begotten" is MONOGENES. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words MONOS meaning "only" and GENOS meaning "kind or race." If we combine the words we get "only kind" or "unique." Most of us are familiar with Abraham and his eight sons: Ishmael (Gen. 16:15), Issac (Gen. 21:3) and six other sons by Keturah (Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah, Gen. 25:1-2). Issac was not Abraham's first born son, but he was Abraham's special son (Gen. 17:19), being the promised one from God. Now turn to Hebrews 11:17, By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED." (NASB) Hebrews 11:17-18 Notice that Isaac is called "only begotten." Was Isaac Abraham's only son? No! He had eight sons. The Greek word has been misunderstood and poorly translated. It does not mean he was born. The Greek word means "unique" or "one and only." Some of the newer Bible translations such as the New Century Version, New International Version, and the New Living Translation are now using the correct wording. Here is the NIV's wording, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV) John 3:16 Jesus is the one and only Son of God - not created and not made. And since the expression "Son of God" was an ancient expression meaning that Jesus was and is God, Jesus is the one and only God. He is the eternal One!

I have been honest. It is my honesty that apparently disturbes you. I believe that Mormons believe in a different Jesus Christ then the one described in the Bible. You don't like that I believe that........then get over it! I have read Ensign articles and the Bible and Book of Mormon many times. I know BYU professors and other LDS members who accept what the greek word for "only begotten" actually means. "only begotten" is MONOGENES...... "only kind" or "unique." There are many members in the LDS Church and there are many that I know of that believe the same way that mainstream Christianity does about Jesus Christ. The reality is that the Mormon Church is a pot pouri of various different beliefs about who God is and what the nature of God is, what the plan of salvation is, ect. If being a jerk is what you are good at Snow.........then by all means continue on. It just shows that you have a low tolerance for people who believe things alot differently than you do. Its more of a reflection of yourself than anything else. Don't blame me for your nasty attitude.

How hard do you think it is going to be for me to prove you wrong? I am not even going to wake up for this one. Stephen's claim: Jesus Christ is the only person that walked the earth that had no biological parents. This is biblical. Even the Mormon Church acknowledges this even if you are ignorant of it. Snow's claim: Stephen is lying and every Mormon knows it. The proof of Snow's claim The Son of God is the literal, physical son of God (hence the use of the term "son"). Ancient and modern scriptures use the title Only Begotten to emphasize the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Latter-day Saints recognize Jesus as literally the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh (John 3:16; D&C 93:11; Moses 6:52). This title signifies that Jesus' physical body was the offspring of a mortal mother and of the eternal Father (Luke 1:35, 1 Ne. 11:18). It is LDS doctrine that Jesus Christ is the child of mary and God the Father, "not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof" (JC, p. 81). The fact of Jesus' being the literal Son of God in the flesh is crucial to the Atonement, which could not have been accomplished by an ordinary man. Source of the quote: Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, Jesus Christ, Only Begotten, Copyright © 1992 by Macmillan Publishing Company The EoM is approved by the First Presidency. Maybe Stephen thinks he understands LDS doctrine better than the First Presidency of the Church but I can assure you that he does not. The above is perfectly clear that Jesus is the literal physical son of God but just in case Stephen wants to persist is his deceit about LDS doctrine, let's go right to the sorce of LDS doctrine - the scriptures: John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." Maybe Stephen does not understand the word begotton????? Definition: "[adj] (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child" Synonyms: biological" 1 Nephi 18 "Behold the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, AFTER THE MANNER OF THE FLESH." Now I considered the possibility that Stephen was just lying again in an attempt to set up another lie that LDS belief is that there was an actual sex act again. Yes, he is that clumsy. Let him try. I might even wake up to address that deceit. Want more? "The LDS Church proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense." (Gospel Principles) I admit that I was wrong about Mormon doctrine and I'm sorry about that. I was under the impression that Mormons believed the same thing as mainstream Christianity on this issue. It is still dishonest of you to say that I was lying about LDS doctrine when it was simply a misunderstanding. That is called character assasination and bearing false witness.

The expression "only begotten" is a poorly translated Greek word. This word actually means "unique," "only," or "only one of its' kind." This expression is found in the familiar passage, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (NASB) John 3:16 Meaning. The Greek word for "only begotten" is MONOGENES. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words MONOS meaning "only" and GENOS meaning "kind or race." If we combine the words we get "only kind" or "unique."

If you were placing your faith and trust in the Jesus Christ described in the Bible then you certainly would be Saved. If you were placing your faith and trust in the Jesus Christ described by the Mormon Church that does not exist who is the first born spirit child of Heavenly Parents then...you fate would be eternasl torment in Hell. As mentioned before...........there is no salvation in a counterfeit Jesus Christ.

If God can take on the form of a burning bush, a pillar of fire, ect., then forming a human body for himself should not be difficult for God to do.

I don't know. What is a halcyon?

Now, this really is getting interesting. So you believe that Jesus wasn't connected to his Mary in the womb? You believe that there was no umbilical cord? What in the Bible leads you to believe this? because all through the Bible it speaks of his mother, not adopted mother. But the Bible doesn;t say that he was adopted. how do you explain that? What in the Bible leads you to believe that? The verses in Hebrews re: Melchisedic? anything else? Because all through the Bible it says that God is his father and that Mary is his mother it says nothing about adoption. I compared Mary to an adopted Mother.......I did not say she was an adopted Mother. That was simply the best comparison that I could make. Mary was the care taker of Jesus Christ and she loved him and raised him during his growing up years.What does the umbilical cord have to do with anything? I don't know if there was an umbilical cord or not. This does not change the fact that Jesus Christ would not have had DNA from Mary or Joseph because Mary was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost. No doubt Mary was a loving parent and took good care of him. This is not disputed. I don't doubt what the Bible says. Mary was indeed a mother to Jesus Christ. This does not negate the fact that Jesus Christ was conceived by miraculous means and that his genetic make-up was different than anybody else that has walked the earth. Don't ask me to explain a miracle. I just accept by faith that it was the miracle described.

It is referring to Melchisedic not Jesus. How do you explain that? Hebrews 7: 1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Here Melchizedek is being compared to the Son of God. The writer of Hebrews sees in Melchizedek a type or figure of Christ and draws parallels between the two. Without father, without mother: What is true about Melchizedek typically only because of lack of knowledge or silence is intrinsically true of Jesus Christ. Melchizedek is without parents only in that they are unknown. He is without descent in that his genealogy was not preserved. Genealogy was essential to a priest, for under the Levitical system one could not serve if he could not prove his pedigree(Exra 2:62). Melchizedek had no papers. Further he is without beginning and ending due to the fact that the Old Testament never mentioned his birth and death....the Son of God literally is without beginning of days and end of life, which is who the author of the Book of Hebrews compares to Melchizedek. Many understand these verses in Hebrews to suggest that Melchizedek was a theophany, an appearance of Christ Himself, rather than a historical king at Salem. There is no Bible scholars or Bible commentaries of any sort that deny the fact that Melchizedek is being compared to the Son of God. What interpretation you choose to take on these verses regarding Melchizedek is up to you.

WARNING, WARNING STEPHEN LIE ALERT. The Church does indeed believe that Christ has biological parent although it does not know the mechanics of how it happened. Can you even go a single day without lying about the Church? Just one day? One? Note: Stephen's solution is to 1. interpret the scripture Son of God to mean not Son and God and to believe that Christ had no inherited chromosomes - poof, magic, razzamatazz. Please stop lying Stephen. Please. The Mormon Church says that Mary was a virgin. How is that lying? Can you Mr. Snow go a single day without lying about me lying? If the Mormon Church no longer believes that Mary was a virgin then please show references. If you are right and the Mormon Church has changed their doctrinal position that Mary was a virgin then I will admit I was wrong. However you have yet to prove your presumptuous speculations. What on earth are you babbling about. You said that the Church believes that Jesus had no biological parents. I said you were wrong specifically about that particular point ("The Church does indeed believe that Christ has biological parent(s)") and now you are pretending that I was making a point about whether the Mother of Christ had engaged in sexual activity. Stop the lies Stephen. How long do you suppose it might take for me to post proof, again, of your deceitfulness? The points are inter-connected. If the Mormon Church believes that Mary was literally a virgin then they also believe that Jesus Christ had no biological parents. The two points go hand in hand. I did not know that you were so dense that I had to connect the dots for you also. Nowhere in LDS doctrine that I am aware of does the Mormon Church ever state that they believe Jesus Christ had biological parents. If Mary was really a virgin that gave birth to Jesus Christ it means that he had no DNA from Mary or Joseph........hence the reason why it is called a miracle. And a miracle of this nature is an abnormal event that does not fall into the normal biological laws. Where are the lies? I guess anybody that disagrees with Snow must be lying! That is an awfully convenient evasive maneuver! There are people walking the earth now that were conceivec without sexual intercourse. Are you saying that they have no biological parents. I choose to believe the Bible. It says that Jesus is God's son, that mary is his mother AND that Mary was a virgin. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus didn't have biological parents. Oh, steven, could you please answer my other questions? I choose to believe the Bible. Jesus Christ was conceived inside the womb of Mary because the Holy Ghost came upon her and the power of the Highest over-shadowed her(Luke1:35). Yes. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ just as a woman who adopts a son and raises him and takes care of him and loves him in his growing up years is his mother. This still does not change the fact that Jesus Christ has no biological parents.

"How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"(Romans 10:11). Everybody needs to come to know Jesus Christ the same way. You say: I can't just accept Jesus? I say: which Jesus Christ? Do you really think that it makes no difference what Jesus Christ you believe in? Do you really think that you can believe anything you want about Jesus Christ and your faith is valid? Do you realize how strange and illogical that is? No...you cannot just believe any Jesus Christ that you choose. You need to believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible who is without beginning of days or end of life. You need to believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible who is God manifest in the flesh. A faith in a false Jesus Christ can bring no salvation. The Bible warns us about false Jesus Christ's and false Prophets in the world. "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many"(Matthew 24: 5). "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves"(Matthew 7:15). "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him"(2Corinthians 11:3-4). Were these warnings given in vain or in other words were they given for no reason? People that come saying: I am Christ and deceive many is only one warning and is a serious warning because people could not obtain salvation because they were deceived by such a counterfeit. The warning more applicable to the discussion at hand is Paul's warning in the book of 2Corinthians.........Paul worried for those whose minds may be corrupted from the simplicity which is in Jesus Christ by those who come teaching another Jesus Christ(who was the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Mother would qualify as another/different Jesus Christ). This is a serious issue because we are discussing a counterfeit Jesus Christ......a different Jesus Christ then the one we read about in the Bible. So, yes it is very important which Jesus Christ you place your faith and trust in.......your eternal salvation is at stake. If you were pricked in your heart at a Church meaning in which the Jesus Christ of the Bible is described and you trust in the only true and living Jesus Christ, confess your sins and accept him as your Savior then you will be Saved/Born Again. If you were pricked in your and ignored that convistion of the Holy Spirit that was telling you that yoiu need to be Saved because you realize your a Sinner, but you reject that witness from God and you got hit by a car and died then you would be doomed to Hell. If a person is Saved by accepting Jesus Christ then that person is Born Again for the first time and that means that person has a living faith in the Lord jesus Christ......so good works will follow. This does not mean that you are perfect.......after all we all have human weaknesses and make mistakes........but good fruits/works should be a natuaral by-product of that genuine faith in Jesus Christ and there will be signs that such a person is a believer. I don't really like to go into "what ifs" because some "what if" questions are rare circumstances. Suppose a person who is really a Born Again Christian joins the Mormon Church and has been swayed by false doctrines.......that person really knows the truth, but is in a bacslidden condition.....He deep down knows that the Mormon Church teaches a counterfeit Jesus Christ because the Holy Spirit dwells in that person and teaches him the truth even though he may be in denial.... if that person dies in that condition he will still go to Heaven because he is saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, but he will be among the least in the kingdom of Heaven.