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I dunno all of my divorced (male) friends, my father, all the divorced men I know around my father's age, they all say, basically, don't sell your life short by giving up your life to earn money for a woman and a family she now has with someone else. I appreciate the reply and the rare good marriages sound really nice but divorce basically means your life is over, of you're a man. Maybe you get lucky like you did and get joint custody and physical custody (of course no child support for you, women will never be held to a man's standard) or maybe you don't get super lucky and you end up like half the guys I grew up with. I still do not see enough reason to get married under the state contract. State marriage gives me nothing, nothing at all, to protect myself but requires me to give so much. It's just insane. I honestly struggle to understand how any of you can support this sheer insanity. It just boggles my mind.

Yes marriage is necessary but, still, while you can wax poetic about marriage and tell me about my duties to God no one is answering my actual concerns here. State marriage looks to be insane to me towards men. I don't know of any scripture that says men and women should be in a state marriage. So why doesn't the church offer a religious marriage or something? Why are our leaders trying to force us into this insane one side state contract? I don't even get a sliver of protection in this contract but my future wife gets guarantees of my money and my life. I'll continue on with my plan to flee this country and find somewhere I can get married without exposing myself to life in "illegal" debtors prisons to support children I don't even get to see. I'm just astounded that you are all so... horrible that you don't even care that marriage has become such a terror and a complete joke that men now speak to each other about what we can do about it. And end up reaching the conclusion that all we can do is violate the laws of chastity, remain celibate while women cry about not having a husband, or flee to a less insane country. It just boggles my mind that none of you even care. I mean I know nobody cares about men, especially other men, and I'm thankful that the mods erased the worst man hating "man up" comments, but really what am I supposed to do? Because I will not end up like my father or all my brothers. I actually do care about them even though you all do not.

I know a guy that can walk on water. I know a dog that's an actor. I know about a woman who fell ten thousand feet out of an airplane without a parachute and didn't die. I know a guy who won $400,000 in the lottery. Cool story.

I'm actually concerned more with being denied access to any future children. As this is what happened to my father and has happened to several of my friends. Though of course they still have to pay for the families that they are not a part of by threat of jail and state violence. I think I'm lucky that I didn't get married when I was younger and didn't realize what marriage has actually become. I'll say a prayer to thank Heavenly Father for that.

Thank you for giving me a real reply. I'm glad I decided to keep reading through this thread where I'm attacked for observing the truth and stating my very real fears. Voluntary celibacy does seem to be my only option for the short term while finding a foreign country to relocate to in the long term. Unfortunately speaking Russian isn't as useful with our current cold war with Putin. I can occupy some time until I can relocate learning a new language. And I can still follow my covenants this way. I appreciate the actual response. And is course I have a bad attitude. Look what happens when I try to bring this up? I'm attacked relentlessly.

After last priesthood session for general conference what do you think we talked about? The older men talked about how unhappy they were being married and how they basically hid from their wives, one guy spoke about how he was planning his divorce now that his youngest has moved out because he just can't take his wife's massive entitlement anymore. Besides she's been threatening him with divorce and taking his kids for ten years. Now she can't take the kids from him so he'll finally give her the divorce she's been using as a threat to control him. The unmarried of us past 25 spoke about how much we feared marriage and how happy we were to see someone in general conference speak to women about their own duties. Though we all greatly fear the laws that we know are written and enforced against us because of our gender and the belief that women are just wonderful and do no wrong. Some of the guys spoke about how they can't find a woman to marry. Only fat women that no one wants and a bunch of single mothers who have already proven that they are a bad bet in an already stacked game. I'm tall, in better shape then 95% of the population, have a home and a good job. I can easily find women who will go out with me and then tell me things like, "I'd make such a good wife" or "I'd be such a good mom", etc.. Maybe they would. Unfortunately it doesn't matter because the laws are so insane that I don't dare get married. And nobody will talk about this.

Courts always do give full custody of the children to the woman. It's default. Just because in one case the woman didn't want it doesn't change the laws. I'm barely getting through this thread. I'm actually done reading this for now. I can't believe the lack of empathy and utter lack of caring I'm seeing here. I have a very real serious problem and so do all my friends, we talk about it in private, and when I try to bring this discussion to my faith I get attacked and ridiculed. What's wrong with all of you people? How can you not see that you are bad people?

I have a mother and three sisters. I have five nieces as well.Edit - I've known my friend Alison for 13 years. She's older then me and turned 40 this year. She was upset last year and called me to talk as she lives in Vermont now with her boyfriend. She was upset because he won't marry her. He won't marry her for the same reason I won't marry anyone. Marriage is a one sided contract that gives men nothing but takes so much. I explained to her in detail the laws and how they are enforced in the secret family courts before she shut me down. I explained to her why he won't get married. She got mad and attacked me much like many of you. Apparently she didn't want to know why he wouldn't get married. She wanted to know how to manipulate him into it. I have another woman friend I have known for eight years as well. She's married. She's one of those horrible feminists but other then that she's a pretty good person. I spoke with her about my problems last year. She sympathized and her solution was to "help" me with my libido by cheating on her husband with me. I'm not joking. We are no longer friends. Other then those two and my sisters my other friends are all male. What does that have to do with anything? I'm going to bail on this thread though. I have serious real concerns about marriage and no one will even have enough respect to speak to me about it. I'm sick of you people attacking me. I have a real spiritual crisis here and all you loving brothers and sisters of our own church simply attack me. So no marriage for me. I'll enjoy all my stuff and, unfortunately, not get to have children. Perhaps I'll move out of the country and get married somewhere that doesn't have a bunch of insane anti man laws and courts. Maybe I'll find members of the faith who won't just attack me for observing reality.

What? You come in here and tell me how I feel about women and you claim it's hate? What is wrong with you? Are you projecting your own feelings onto me or something?

What? You just don't get it do you? I tell you that I feel unable to get married because the laws are so insane and anti father, having seen my own father destroyed, my friend's fathers (one of then killed himself when we were twelve), and now as I near thirty many of my friends have had their lives destroyed by cheating wives and man hating courts and all you can do is tell me to treat women with respect? Are you all daft? I do treat women with respect. What is wrong with all of you? I've turned down women who want to be my future wife because I can't get married. I try to explain why and you all lie, flat out lie, attack me, shame me, and say a bunch of non sequitur baloney that has nothing to do with anything. Ok yes I'll continue to treat women with respect. Thanks for your "contribution".

I'm sorry but downplaying my problem and, hence, ignoring it isn't going to fix anything. So far no one has actually addressed my problems. You telling to to ignore reality isn't going to fix anything.

Cool story. None if this has anything to do with why I can not get married.

At its peak the California divorce rate was 80%. In response your state simply ceased to keep track of the divorce rate anymore so now nobody knows what it is. Please don't insert your lies into this thread. That's all anyone is doing. Lies are not going to fix my problem.

Sorry but divorce is far far worse on men. This is a fact. I'm not sure why you think it's OK to lie to me. I will not end up like my father. Or my friend James Or my brother Matthew. Or my friend Steve. Or Andrew. Again you made up lies and presented them as truth and you ignored my issue.

Hello Eowyn, I do not have any problem finding a woman who wants to marry me. In fact I find myself having to tell women why I refuse to marry them. Unfortunately no one is remotely interested in why I can't get married and instead simply tried to shame me or manipulate me into signing a contract where I promise half my money but the women doesn't promise fidelity. No one will address my issues. There are many women who have tried to turn me into their boyfriend and husband. There are many in my ward who have women they want to set me up with. Daughters and friends mostly. I tell them not to. You are ignoring my problems. At least you didn't attack me with shaming like our fellow brothers and sisters though.

"Just wait until you find the one." Again you are not addressing anything that is a real problem for me. I'm not sure if you are serious and hence dim or if you are trolling me.

Who said anything about full custody? You just made something up and then defended that because now you don't have to acknowledge the truth of my, and my unmarried friends, real situation.

Severe shaming and a complete lack of empathy. Also most of you simply made up a bunch of complete nonsense and pretended like I asserted your lies so you could then defend the crap that you made up. No one will talk about my very real issues and very real concerns. In fact you attack me and severely shame me for even trying to talk about this. You people should be ashamed of yourself.

I joined the church last year and recently have found myself in a bind. I feel like I'm rebelling against the teachings of our living prophet and it's making me feel sick. I'm in my early thirties. All of my friends are in their early thirties. We are all bachelors. We choose this because we feel that we are forced to choose this. We have all watched our fathers, our uncles, our friends, and our brothers who chose marriage have their lives completely destroyed by the family court systems. Their children have been taken from them but they are still forced to pay. In every single case, and I am referring to seven people from my group, every single case the divorce was ultimately caused by the wife cheating. And then, despite the fact that it is the wife who broke her marriage vows and her covenants, the family court systems have routinely destroyed the man and rewarded the wife. So we have all decided to not get married. We don't see why we should. What do we gain from marriage? We don't gain anything. There is no protection from adultery, there is no enforcement of fidelity, and the women get the children 100% of the time. Even if they are a drunken meth addict with a huge rap sheet while the husband is a hard working earner. Typically the wives will state something like, "my husband worked too much" or "my husband was emotionally distant" or "money problems/kid problems stressed me out", but none of these are reasons to divorce. The real reason is that the wife either had sex with another man or wanted to have sex with another man. So we all know that we gain nothing from a divorce except that we do not have to break the laws of chastity to engage in sexual activity. Most of us have simply become voluntarily celibate. I myself became involuntarily celibate so that I could meet my baptismal covenants. But we all struggle and many men simply choose to have sex outside of marriage because we know that marriage is a scam and the family courts will destroy us at our wives whim. I mean if your wife gets "bored" your life is going to be destroyed. Because your wife got "bored". How are we supposed to marry? I see the church fighting gay marriage but I see this as a useless battle. The church lost this battle when they accepted that it's acceptable to get married and divorced based on feelings alone. Feelings that wax and wane. So if marriage is about feelings and not about a duty to God, family, and children, then how can the church oppose two people getting married for "feelings"? I see that as the way the church has already lost the gay marriage debate. Marriage is about "love", right? I do not see this anywhere in the scriptures. I see marriage as duty first and foremost. Marriage is supposed to be the place to explore love. Not the ultimate expression of it. Yesterday I stopped by Deseret Book after visiting the temple for Elder Perry's funeral and looked through the movies. There for sale was a movie called Fireproof. This is a movie that exalts a woman having an affair, cheating on her husband and committing a grievous sin, but it is framed in such a way that this woman's terrible sin is actually her "leading" her husband back to Christ and strengthening her marriage. Deseret Book is selling a movie that promotes a woman cheating on her husband. I complained to the manager but he had no explanation for why they are selling sin to women. In secret the older married men in my ward warn me to avoid marriage at all costs. They speak about how badly they want to divorce once their youngest child moves away and how painful this is for them. They speak about spending ten years with their wives having a stranglehold over their families with wives who routinely threaten divorce and theft of these men's children. They stay in very unhappy marriages with no power to fix them because they are so frightened of the incredibly sexist family court system. I'm not sure what to do. I can not support marriage and neither can any of my friends. Not after what we've seen happen to our own fathers, to our friends, and to our brothers. When I try to bring this up with my bishop I'm instantly dismissed with, "just wait until you find the right one". The right one? Again marriage is being framed as the expression of love and not the place to explore love. We are lost. We can't get married and we know it. We can't have a sexual relationship with a woman without violating the scriptures. Yesterday I spoke in depth with two of my friends and we spoke about how badly we wished that the living prophet would tell us to not get a state marriage, to not invite the insane family court systems to destroy our lives, but to get a spiritual marriage before God. If only we could... So what are we supposed to do? And how come no one will talk to us about this? We feel cast out from the church because of this. We want families but we know that we can't have them. If we do marry and have children then "our" children can be taken away from us at any time, for any or no reason, and we have no control over this. We don't want to end up like our fathers. Last month I was talking to one of my church sisters about this and she said to me, "we all know that the woman will always get the children even if she's an abusive drunk." She smiled at me as she said this. It made her happy! What am I to do? It's either remain celibate, flee to another country where the marriage laws are not shockingly sexist and insane, or violate the laws of chastity.