Byron

From my studies I have come to understand 'anti' means 'in place of'. I learned this when discussing with 7th day Adventists who insist that the pope is the anti-Christ that the pope stands in place of Christ. But what does it mean when used in the form of ant-gay, anti-theist, or anti-Mormon? I guess one can say that the English language is evolving and that a secondary meaning has come to play in which 'anti' means 'against'. Or perhaps this is yet another example of man's desire to categorize and compartmentalize all things he sees. There is a school of belief that believes that man was charged with naming all things in creation and if you are of that school I am sure you can agree that this is simply a means by which God has entrusted us to be good stewards over creation. But when we use words (like anti-Mormon') designed to separate and ostracize each other I believe we are not doing God's will. You might ask, 'Well, how then do we address those that would come to our forum and preach against our faith?' I think it best to not add fuel to the fire. I believe it best that should someone approach me with words of hatred I deflect the words and respond with kindness or simply ignore the words. Calling someone anti-'anything' is really no different than saying, "I am right and you are wrong", or "I am better than you." This is pride, and pride is sin.

Not taking credit for the discord, just apologizing for the discord my words may have triggered.

I am sorry that my questions have caused so much discord on your forum, so I hope to make amends here. After reading a number of posts after I had said goodbye, it seems many of you have made some assumptions about me. But rather than leave things at that I would like to take this time and clear up the misconceptions many have about me. My name is Byron Xxxxxxxx, I am a Canadian teacher currently working and living in China. I am well travelled having visited nearly 30 countries now and though I am not a big fan of the lesser vices of man I do find a form of contentment learning about why people do what they do. I am not a strong Christian, I am not a regular church goer, but I do believe with all my heart that Jesus was the son of God. I was indoctrinated in the Lutheran Church but never really took to the additional things they added to Christianity (similar to how the Catholics do). In my walk as a Christian I have heard uncountable times the branding of faiths like Mormonism or Jehovah Witnesses as being unscriptural cults that hide themselves behind a veil of truth to better disguise their lie. I feared my mind may have been poisoned by man's prejudices and hatred of things he does not understand. Thus I have spoken to people of quite a few faiths now; Muslim's in Dubai and the Philippines, Catholics all over the world, Jehovah Witnesses at my front door (lol), People of the Bahia faith in India, but I had up till now not had opportunity to really talk to Mormons. Perhaps it was the fact that whenever I saw a Mormon, I was too busy, not ready to talk or simply the will of God. I came to this forum with many misconceptions and prejudices, but I sincerely tried to ignore these by simply asking some of the questions I was most concerned with. I understand what it is like to be an apologetic for your faith in the face of adversity. Both China and the middle east are not overly welcoming of Christianity. The constant challenging of my faith can, at times, bring the worst out in me. However after my frustration subsides, I realize that I failed God and man once again. I pray for forgiveness and if I cannot make amends I move on knowing that Though I may have failed my neighbor, God will not give up on him. I have never been a part of any workshop with an agenda outside of studying the bible. I have never had a secret agenda to debunk Mormonism or any other faith. I trust in the complete word of God (which I believe to rest singularly in the bible). I have no interest in understanding the specifics of other faiths, but I do have interest in understanding the people who believe in other faiths. The human part of me really wanted to lash out at those of you who lashed out at me. The self-righteous part of me wanted to condemn those who condemned me. It was the holy spirit that rests in me that tempered my response and had me pray to God for patience and tolerance. God is good. Still as I told one of you, who did actually send men a very pleasant email, I was able to look past the unpleasantness to learn that many of my misconceptions were in error. In closing, I would like to remind you all that only people who are hurt seek to hurt others. That if you take things personally, you allow yourself to be hurt. You all have the power to avoid this. And you all have the gift of being able to ask God for strength, understanding and forgiveness. So should someone come to you not just with questions, but accusations and judgments, you can better serve your faith. I do not believe God wants us to fight each other, I believe God wants us to live in his word, deliver his word and love through his word. And that should someone seek to harm us, "we offer up our other cheek." I hope I have made myself clear. God Bless

Hello again. I want to thank everyone for the insight concerning my questions. I learned a lot from many of you and have begun researching the bible again for further answers. I would like to take this time to comment on the experience. I truly tried to ask my questions sincerely. And though some of you responded in kind, many of you seemed quite confrontational. Yes my beliefs differ but I only eluded to these once I was asked. Yet many of you saw my questions as insulting assertions, or libelous accusation. Some of you even went so far as to attack certain doctrines of the Lutheran Church or made assumptions about my intent or character. I found myself wondering why: Did you confront me because you are so zealous about your beliefs that you see an enemy where there is none? Or, were you just looking for an extreme response in an attempt to discredit your assumptions about me, my intent, or my faith? But the only response I gave was to ask more questions and that seemed to anger some of you further. It saddens me that we cannot question one another without feeling judged or condemned. Even more so that we seek to attack one another over perceived slights. But as a pastor once told me, "It is a guilty heart that is angered by a question." I wanted to ask more questions but this is your house and I am just a guest. So I will take away what I have learned here and pray to God for the wisdom and grace needed to not view anyone as my enemy. I believe God wants us to come together in worship of him and not separate thus making easy work for the true enemy. I will also pray for you all; so that should another come asking similar questions, that you find the peace in your own hearts to not lash out at perceived insult. I also hope that my words here rest in your hearts in order to bring us all together in tolerance and understanding and above all worship of God. Thank you for your time, God bless! For those of you who would like to continue to develop a fellowship or simply to say hello, please contact me at [email protected] I love making new friends.

Actually If you claim that they are the same then yes I am asking how that is possible. Unless the BOM is simply a translation of the Bible or the writings are quoted from the bible, the BOM would be by all definitions "a different gospel". So yes I ask for your evidence.

@Mordorbound, actually no. I have, thus far, refused to read anything spiritual other than the bible because I believe the Bible is the complete word of God. I do not even read books (about scripture) written by people of the same Church as me because I believe discussion about God should take place between two people so that God is there among them. it is also for this reasoning that I try to stay away from posted articles about scripture that many of you have suggested I read. I know this may seem rather closed minded to some. But I know my weaknesses and without being able to question something I will either believe it or discount it and may lose something in the process.

I can understand your frustration, you likely have had to defend your faith often. I know what that can be like having lived in the middle east and now in China. However As a Christian I can tell you that we must defend our faith with love, compassion and understanding. We must do this despite affronts (real or perceived). As for the subtitle on the BOM. I hope you can understand that as a Christian indoctrinated in the Lutheran church, I do not subscribe to the validity of the words. But that is not why I am here. I am here to try and understand people of differing faiths to help me grow in my own, and in turn become closer to God. It is purely a selfish thing I do. As for reference material, I think it was Vort who pointed out how people can misconstrue documents. (re: Jeff Lindsay's comic thesis). I find a forum a good way to get to the bottom of things.

How so?

@Eowyn as for answering the questions, thus far I can see that only prisonchaplain and just_a_guy have answered my questions. I have in turn answered many of yours. (as a group) I think it important to remember I am not trying to upset you with questions. I am seeking to understand your faith and reasoning behind an apparent opposition to something I have held as truth for decades. Could I be wrong? I am open for correction. As should we all be.

@Eowyn I am doing my best. I am between classes now and may have to disappear again soon.

@mordorbound I am not an authority on what makes a Gospel. However in my understanding, Gospel simply means good news shared about Christ. This good news would be anything in the original writings that professed he was the Son of God, come to die for our sins so that no further sacrifice need be made. (My concern here is that I may be misquoting the bible and in turn become the falseness that Paul spoke of so please take the intent I understand about Christ and judge it against Biblical scripture)

@Eowyn I am sure you can understand that I will not respond to insults or slanderous remarks. To these I have already comment and needn't say more "Let a yes be a yes and a no be a no and anything else be evil" However to your question, I am not sure the meaning, please clarify.

@eowyn, sorry, It seems that in your second and third last posts you were trying to enforce the BOM's validity by invalidating translations of the Bible. If I am incorrect please clarify.

@ Ironhold, the keyword there is "everlasting" being that only God is everlasting, so too would his word be. @prisonchaplin, Thank you. I had suspicions similar to this, but contrary to certain accusations I am trying not to ask leading questions. Just for clarity, are you saying that the scripture was only validated once canonized? I do agree that with the lack of all the writings in the bible yet to be collected and categorized at the time it is quite possible that Paul was only referring to the 4 witness accounts of Jesus' life. (i.e. the Gospels). But then I have to know, would that then not invalidate Paul's own writings?

@Eowyn would you seek to dismiss all translations of the bible in order to keep the BOM in good standing... Refer to Solomon and the two women who argued over ownership of a baby.

@Vort As a reminder, I have not attacked you personally, despite your numerous personal attacks against me (veiled or otherwise) Instead I am turning the other cheek, however I feel it important to let you know that the offense is noted. I am asking questions. If you feel the nature of my questioning is underhanded, then by all means ignore my questions and report the post. As for your rationale, I am assuming you are frustrated over having to defend your faith in the past. I assure you I mean no slight but rather seek to understand what and how you believe. I hope we can continue to explore this and other questions in a civil manner.

Hmmm. Let me try and break the passage down. perhaps we can clear up the misunderstanding: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel Is the BOM a different gospel? If so: 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. And the result of this: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! And just to empathize the importance of the message it is restated: 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! You have agreed that The BOM preaches the Gospel of Christ. If the BOM preaches the Gospel of Christ but the BOM is not the Gospel which was written in the Bible, then is it not the "different Gospel" Paul warns us about?

I just read Jeff Lindsay's tongue-in-cheek thesis and I can see where people might get the wrong idea. it is obvious we will find whatever we are looking for no matter what we read. Thus I feel talking to you all is much more effective in finding the truth about your faith. Thank you

@Just_a_Guy If you agree that the BOM is indeed the 'cursed' book mentioned in Galatians, I wanted to know how you rationalize that TBOM is from God? Do you ignore This one passage? If so, how much of God's word (in the bible) do you believe is the truth?

Thank you Vort. It seems I misused the phrase. what I should have said was "The Conception of Jesus".

Is the Holy Ghost not another word for Holy Spirit?

Hi there. Unlike my previous posts where I had heard gossip from others and wanted to find the truth. This topic is one I found myself while reading the bible several years ago. So my question on this is quite personal. I know I made an attempt at the question previously but after reading many of your comments to other queries I wanted to be more accurate and concise so that the question does not get lost amid semantics. Galatians1 6-9: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! The word "gospel" comes from ancient Greek meaning "good news". My question is two-fold: 1) Does TBOM preach the "Good News" of Christ? 2) If it does how do you rationalize this?

sorry, double post

@Mordorbund I think it would be best if I answer your question by saying what I believe and not what I think. I believe the "word's of wisdom" you quote are of man simply because they are not found in the bible. This is not to say that man's wisdom is evil. But it is limited especially when compared to God's wisdom. And as a man, both my wisdom and my beliefs are limited, so I could be wrong.

@Maureen. I am sorry I do not follow the question. @NeuroTypcial. If you are asking my belief about Mormon's not being Christian. No I think the two are separate. It doesn't mean I do not respect your belief but until I find otherwise, my beliefs are that Christianity is defined by John 3:16. However if a Christian rejects the word of God, even in part, this is akin to the rejection of the holy spirit and thus the only unforgivable sin. I base this aspect of my belief primarily on the responses I have gotten here and from Mormons outside of the cyber world concerning my queries about how TBOM can be held as God's word in spite of Galatians1 6-9. Again this is my belief, I only offer it because you asked. Remember though I am only a man and thus fallible. My understanding of God's word is limited to the fact that I have a man's understanding. Thus I have come here to ask questions.