Sadliers

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Everything posted by Sadliers

  1. Oh, my friend, that's not good! You didn't understand what Nephi was saying. "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm." (2 Nephi 4:34) You're doing the very thing that Nephi said that is a curse. The saints in Corinth were also having problems with trying to learn God the same way, through the wisdom of their study, and it was causing problems. One would interpret one way and another would interpret it differently and it resulted in contention. Paul wrote to them and right off the bat addressed the issue. He pointed out that the learning is supposed to come directly from God, not through their studies. The Pharisees would do their studying but rather than seeking a witness from the Spirit they would rely on their own interpretations, such as you are doing, and that is relying on one's own wisdom. The members in Corinth had that as their example before being converted and they thought it would work for them as members of the church. Paul tried correcting it and said: "That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;" (1 Corinthians 1:5) Notice that Paul did not say that one's own wisdom was sufficient for knowledge but rather that it comes from God. Paul continues making the point: "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1 Corinthians 1:17) What is "wisdom of words"? It is a good argument/claim using wisdom just as you have done. Notice that he did not go that route and the reason why: because it would make the "cross of Christ... of none effect". That is a very serious claim! Is there salvation for a person if the cross is of no effect? No! What he is saying is that God is not learned through mere studies and God is also not taught through conclusions from study ("wisdom"). Since that is not how God is learned and taught then how is it? Just like he has said previously and elsewhere, it is through the Spirit. This is totally consistent with what the Lord has revealed in the D&C: "17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? 18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God. 19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? 20 If it be some other way it is not of God. 21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? 22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together." (D&C 50:17-22) Paul didn't leave it at that but rather did a whole chapter on learning by he Spirit. He again makes the point: "4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:4-5) Again he told them not to do as you have done but rather look to God. And he states what has already been stated within this thread: "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11) The JST is corrects it as "except he has the Spirit of God." Again, attempting to learn God through studying and interpreting, as you have done, is fruitless because it is only a belief. Knowledge only comes from God. Paul continues: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) Yes, when you have consistently failed to learn by the Spirit but rather relied on your own wisdom then what was shared may very well look like foolishness to you. The problem isn't in what was said but rather in your method for gaining understanding of God. Paul makes another point regarding those that fail to gain their learning from God: "1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." (1 Corinthians 3:1-2) Those that fail to learn through the Spirit are babes in the gospel and should not be given meat. They need to grasp tightly to the coat tails of the prophets because they cannot learn the gospel from God on their own. One does not grow in the gospel by relying on their own wisdom and understanding, and it does not matter how long they've been members nor how many books they have read. The approach you have taken does not work for a saint. How many different ways does it need stated and how many different scriptures need cited before it will occur that one must not rely on their own wisdom and understanding in learning the gospel? As Paul said, doing so makes the cross of Christ of no effect.
  2. Did you also disbelieve me when I said that only the General Authorities define doctrine? You're not a General Authority, are you? I see where you're coming from. Are you aware that the Pharisees also relied on their own interpretations of scripture as you do? In fact that was one of their downfalls. They relied on their interpretation of scripture to prove that Jesus was not the Christ and challenged everyone to prove them wrong: "They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet." (John 7:52) Satan proved that scriptures can be misinterpreted by tempting Jesus using scriptures: "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." (Matthew 4:6) Even the beginning of the restoration was caused by scripture interpretations by man: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible." (Joseph Smith History 1:12) I find it interesting that you would do the exact same thing of using your own wisdom to interpret scripture. We were taught since the beginning of the restoration that it is unacceptable before God: "they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." " (ibid 1:19) And even in latter-day revelation we are told that it is not of God to use our own wisdom and understanding to interpret scriptures: "And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God." (D&C 50:19-20) You may think you're covered if it says it in the scriptures but even at that scriptures can be misinterpreted. How many different denominations are there based on different interpretations of the Bible? Paul shared how he learned what he wrote and it wasn't from reading other's books or from his interpretations of the scriptures: "11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:11-12) This is all consistent with what prophets have told us. For example, Nephi said: "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm." (2 Nephi 4:34) Yet with all that you still ignore the scriptures that tell us to seek from God rather than using our own wisdom, and then have the fortitude to challenge what I had learned from the Spirit after seeking from God. Nephi had a similar issue with brothers that wouldn't turn to God for understanding but would also try using their own wisdom and understanding. Might your reason for failing to seek the answers directly from God be the same reason as we read here? "8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord? 9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us. 10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?" (1 Nephi 15:8-10) One only has beliefs until it is revealed to them by God. Since you're failing to turn to God for understanding then all you can challenge with is your beliefs. If you turn to God then the Spirit can give you learning and understanding in those beliefs and that will result in knowledge... Unless you continue to deny the Spirit. But it looks like a catch 22 since turning to God for learning requires the Spirit yet you're disputing the Spirit because you're relying on your own wisdom and understanding rather than God. It is a dilemma...
  3. Why do you continue to claim it as doctrine? Share with me how you know the revelations you receive are from God and not from another source. I'm interested in knowing. Are you claiming that what I shared is false on your own beliefs or are you claiming that the Spirit bore witness to you that it is false?
  4. Why jump to the conclusion that it is new doctrine? Church leaders are the ones that declare doctrine, aren't they? It is church doctrine that not all truth is doctrine. An example given on the Mormon Channel was of the possibility that Jesus was married. There's many evidences that support the idea, and many even believe it, however that is not church doctrine. I've explained what the Spirit feels like and how to recognize the presence and used scriptures. Did I miss it or did you hold back in explaining your idea on how the Spirit feels along with supporting scriptures?
  5. It was learned from the Spirit. The Spirit is the source and the one that taught it to me. The Spirit is the same one that taught it to Paul. The Spirit is God just as Jesus is God, and Jesus also taught it. Feel free to argue with the source. When one shares what was received from God then those that listen have a choice to make. They can either seek from God whether He was the source (and that's what Saints do - see D&C 50), or they can disregard it. Disregarding it will not change the source. Furthermore, disregarding it is self-witnessing that the person is not sincerely trying to follow God since they reject what God has given to another without seeking to discover if it is truth. Distegarding is one thing but you have taken to try dissuading me from what was received by the Spirit. What is the purpose in trying to dissuade one from that which God had given them? Is that not an alignment with Satan when one tries to persuade another in to disbelieving that which came from God? How is that not fighting against God even if done ignorantly?
  6. Sounds more like you want to contend. You're on your own. I will reply regarding anger but since you want to argue with me I'll quote Jesus and Paul then leave it to you to go argue with them. "29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. 30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away." (3 Nephi 11:29-30) Anger doesn't sound in the least bit acceptable, does it? "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:" (Ephesians 4:31) Why should we put away anger if it is either God-neutral or pro-God? "But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth." (Colossians 3:8) You now get the last word.
  7. No, he is not on many counts. One obvious one is that Jesus' death brought the resurrection and that became a gift for all mortals. The question could be turned back to him as: if God is all powerful then why did Jesus have to die at all? Why couldn't God just say "I see you're sorry and since I'm God that is good enough - come on in"? If the reply is "because someone had to pay the price" then point out that a just law requires that the violator be punished, not an innocent bystander. If I killed someone will our law, which is just, permit you to be punished for me? Of course not - a just law requires that I, the violator, be punished and nobody else. So if man, being imperfect, has just laws that require only the violator to be punished then how can a perfect God have an unjust law that permits an innocent bystander to be punished for sins he did not commit? Do we have a just or unjust God over us? From there it will be recognized that the given answer does not work in the face of justice yet God is a just God - so why did an Innocent have to die when we are the violators? If he can correctly answer that then the incorrectness of his claim will be realized He may believe it came from the Holy Ghost but the problem is that the Holy Ghost is consistent in what is revealed. One person will not receive one thing while another receives something different. And that's one of the reasons that a living prophet is necessary: so that as we are learning to recognize the Spirit from other sources we will have the words from the prophets to compare with what was received - if they don't match then we have the wrong source. The sources for revelation are God, ourselves, and Satan.
  8. One cannot understand how Jesus felt until they've walked in His shoes and lived with the same pure love, and are not offending the Spirit in the least degree. Once they understand that manner of living then they will understand what He felt. The anger we experience is not the "anger" God experiences. There is no word in the English language that accurately portrays what God experiences so words that we understand have to be used instead. The devil is the god of anger - are you thinking that Jesus aligned Himself with the devil by experiencing anger as we know anger?
  9. 1. Only the most awesome missionary force in the world!!! 12,000 from each tribe except for Dan! "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:4) As the saying goes, "you ain't seen nothing yet!" We are headed for some really ugly times really soon. Out of the furnace of affliction will come forth the Lord's people with great faith and sanctification unlike you've ever seen in your lifetime. There will be 144,000 of these warriors that will go where Jesus leads them for the second gathering. These 144,000 are going to be the ones that take the gospel to those that behead Christians and to remote regions of the world. They will be the ones making sure that every person has had the gospel preached to them in such faith and power that it cannot be denied, just as Nephi of the twelve did: "And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily." (3 Nephi 7:18) This is a required prerequisite before the Second Coming. 2. All tribes are accounted for.
  10. There is no other way. Every other way is not of God: And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God." (D&C 50:19-20) There's no other options unless one is not of God - baptized members are supposed to be of God. Joseph Smith taught that a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such (it's in his personal journal). A prophet is only speaking the word of God when speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. So yes, if you were discussing football with the prophet he would likely be speaking opinion rather than under the influence of the Holy Ghost and it would not be a good idea to place bets on his opinions. You have cited other situations such as Brigham Young claiming that Adam is God. That was his opinion, not something from the Holy Ghost. And it's the same thing with Bruce R. McConkie regarding blacks and the priesthood, with Jospeh Fielding Smith saying that he didn't think we'd ever land on the moon, with Paul Dunn as he exaggerated some of his war stories, and so forth. To trust them without relying on the Spirit is to blindly follow them, and the Lord has never sanctioned blindly following leaders. In fact in D&C 50:19-20 we see that doing so is not of God. Receiving by the Spirit isn't that hard, it just takes practice and fine tuning. There's a simple way to receive by the Spirit and it does not require revelations or inspiration though they will often come while receiving by the Spirit. To do it a person first makes sure the Spirit is with them. They will know the Spirit is with them because they will feel the presence. The presence of the Spirit is summed up with ALL the feelings listed in Galatians 5:22-23 - all feelings must be present else it must never be assumed to be the Spirit. Once the Spirit is positively being felt then begin reading or hearing what is desired to be checked. The Spirit will never testify of a falsehood so by monitoring the presence of the Spirit one can know whether they are receiving truth or not - the presence will remain or get stronger if it is truth, or it will wain if only partially true or a precept of man with some truth, or it will withdraw if it is false. Of course another possibility for a withdrawal is if we personally did something to offend the Spirit (angry thought, negative attitude, etc) and in that case it is not known whether the statement was true or false since we caused the withdrawal. Aside from that if we know it is the Holy Spirit then we can trust what is being received by the presence or absence thereof. While working out of town once I visited different wards on different weeks. One week I went to a ward and the Spirit was clearly being felt. Sacrament services went well! Come Sunday School the instructor began the lesson and the Spirit's presence witnessed the truth of each statement made. Point after point the Spirit was testifying. It was great! But at one point the instructor paused and the Spirit left. I was beside myself trying to figure out why the Spirit suddenly left when I was enjoying the basking. The next statements from the instructor were false doctrine that was readily recognized even without the Spirit withdrawing. Once the instructor moved away from the comments the Spirit returned and proceeded to testify the rest of the class. The Spirit knows what a person is going to say even before they say it and that was why the Spirit withdrew during that brief pause. That is the most basic way to receive by the Spirit and is the easiest way. It may not be easy to master it, though, since it takes effort to monitor the presence of the Spirit while also trying to hear what is being said. It takes practice. Beyond that there's many other ways to also receive from the Spirit. Usually it will be through an enlightened understanding that gives direction but no definitive answer. Other times it will be straight answers. And yet other times it can be through revelation or visions. Anything from the Spirit is excellent and while receiving by the Spirit it is not uncommon for the Spirit to give further insights. And while at it, strive for that presence to be with you 24/7 - it is well worth it!
  11. This scripture sums it up: "And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?" (1 Nephi 15:8) Scripture is not given for private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). If a good argument is what wins their mind then they are using their own interpretation. Who is wiser: them, a scholar, or God? God gave the scripture so why not ask Him what it means rather than someone else? Asking someone else then relying on their answer is a no-no: "Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord." (Jeremiah 17:5) Whatever someone says should only be received as merely an opinion and God should always have the final word.
  12. When one's perspective is that the Spirit only makes suggestions then they are going astray. If one is following Jesus Christ with real intent then any suggestion from the Spirit is interpreted as an immutable commandment. "For the Strength of Youth" was given under the inspiration of the Spirit. "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation." (D&C 68:4) The test is on and it is not whether or not the pamphlet was inspired. The test is whether the youth will willingly and anxiously obey, begrudgingly obey, or disobey. Rationalizing does no good because it will still offend the Spirit. They have their agency and this is one of those tests on how they will use that agency.
  13. No, you'll see that it was not edited. Snuffer was identified from the start.
  14. Once a person understands how the Spirit feels then why would you assume that it needs to be taught again and again? After your mother taught you to walk around the age of 1 did she need to reteach you how to walk every 6 months after that? You'll need to clarify what the thinking is on why it should be retaught every conference unless I misunderstood the question. 1. Okay, let me see if I have got the thinking straight. Are you thinking that the Spirit is only felt when revelation or inspiration is being received? 2. Then ignore the advice. It is meaningless to you. Problem solved. 3. It was an incorrect assumption on my part. I assumed that all members of the church sincerely try to have a personal relationship with God and are trying to work out their salvation and that is why they belong to the church. That was my mistake so you can ignore that part, too.
  15. I love Elder Bednar!!! Thanks for the video! And I totally agree with what he has said. Why are you concluding that "revelation" and "inspiration" is synonymous with "feeling the Spirit"? Are you aware that one can, and will, feel the Spirit when not receiving revelation or inspiration? Just lay down the pride and relax - I was not calling you to repentance. I was pointing out where the apparent bottleneck was occurring that was preventing a greater understanding and further progression. Sometimes people don't want to know and that is up to you but it's there if you want it. No, I'm not a Snufferite. Snufferite's do not know the Spirit. They, too, do not know how to recognize the Spirit and have taken to following a false Spirit and THAT is one of the reasons a person should know how to recognize the Spirit and how to discern between the different sources. Snuffer tells people to follow him and his teachings - at what point did I not point others to learning how to follow God on their own? This is about helping others avoid falling into the Snuffer trap and look at how it's being fought tooth and nail - how many actually went and studied Galatians 5:22-23, instead of trying to prove me wrong? If what I am sharing was received from the Spirit and if I am sharing what the Spirit gave to me then that same Spirit will share the same thing with any that asks, but how many actually ask instead of taking to fighting against it just because it does not fit their own ideas? Look at how Satan has made so many members petrified in seeking God because of how he snookered Snuffer!
  16. "15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:15-18) There is much to be said regarding these verses. Ironically it is the false prophets that uses these verses to "prove" they are true prophets. But first, what is a prophet? Simply put, a prophet is one that receives revelation from God. Communication and direction may be received by anyone, inside or outside the church, but that is not the same as revelation. Revelation is a more pure form of communication. False prophets sincerely believe they are receiving revelations from God thus one cannot expect them to confess the errors of their ways. It is failing to be able to differentiate between God and the other sources of revelation (self or Satan) that leads one to being a false prophet. Interestingly it is pride that always plays a role with false prophets because they are unwilling to entertain the idea that their revelations are not from God - one that is prideful is not teachable. How do false prophets use that scripture to their advantage? By misinterpreting it. They substitute "works" for "fruits". Once they make the substitution then they'll point to their "good works" as proof that they are a true prophet. They aren't the only ones that make that incorrect substitution, though. How many times do members point to the Book of Mormon as a "fruit" of Joseph Smith? It is not a fruit but rather a work, and what a work it was to do the translation! But it is still a work, not a fruit. Nor is faithful home teaching and visiting teaching a fruit but rather a work. Just as it is incorrect for false prophets to substitute "works" for "fruits" so also is it incorrect for us members to make that same mistake. So then what is a "fruit" if it is not synonymous with "work"? It is the core attributes/characteristics of a person. It consists of those individual attributes that make up the "fruit of the Spirit": Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. It also includes the opposites: indifference, hate, miserable, contention, impatience, evil, doubtful, pride, and hot-headed. It is those core attributes that define our characteristics. Once we are attuned to observing those key attributes then false prophets are readily weeded out. Take President Monson, for example. Is he more of a loving man or one that is indifferent towards others or hates others? All who personally know him know that love best describes him. How about faith? Is he one that seems to live by faith or doubt? Those that know him know he is not a doubter but rather is faithful. We can go right down the list, comparing him to those attributes that make up the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and see that his being is in line with those of the Spirit. Yes, he is a true prophet. Just the same we can take others and compare them. Take Charles Russell, founder of a popular religion. Followers willingly admit that he was one that liked to debate and argue. How does that fit with the comparison of "peace" vs "contention"? One of such character also lacks love - how does that compare with "love" vs "indifference/hate"? Once the fruits are examined it becomes clear that he was not of God. A false prophet usually does not know that they are a false prophet. They honestly believe they are a true prophet. The deception is either from Satan or from themselves, or both. That's how Snuffer got his start - by relying on his own understanding and wisdom through studies, but then Satan was able to get a foothold by appearing as an angel of light. Snuffer truly believes that which he espouses and apparently makes good arguments since many seem to be taken in by it. If one that personally knows Denver will examine the fruits then it will be guaranteed to reveal that he is a false prophet. How am I so sure? Because he does not have the Holy Spirit with him - those that do will reflect the attributes that make up the fruit of the Spirit. But because he did not know the Spirit he did not know when he was straying away. When Satan provided a false manifestation he failed to compare ALL the attributes in the fruit of the Spirit to prove that it was the Spirit, and that fatal neglect led him to excommunication along with many others. And the followers are making the same mistake of failing to consider that ALL the attributes must be present otherwise it is not the fruit of the Spirit and, hence, is not the Spirit. In a nutshell all one is doing to detect a true or false prophet is to look for whether the Spirit is with them. That is observed by how well they match the attributes that makes up the fruit of the Spirit. That doesn't just apply to proclaimed prophets but rather to all people, whether member or nonmember. Righteousness is not based on what one does but rather how close they come to matching the Spirit, which is the same as measuring up to the stature of Jesus Christ. That seems to be a touchy subject especially for those that don't have the Spirit but think they do. They immediately retort that it is a judgment. But is that what the scripture says? Does the scripture say "ye shall judge them by their fruits"? No, it says "ye shall know them by their fruits". There's no judging because it is simply known just as it is known whether a person is black or white without having to judge. Stating a fact is not a judgment just like stating the race of a person is not a judgment. Any angry person does not have the Spirit with them - there's no judging but rather it is self evident and simply known. A contentious person does not have the Spirit with them and it is not judging to make that observance. "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." (1 Nephi 16:2) Failing to recognize the Spirit is a first step in becoming a false prophet. Thinking the Spirit is felt in different ways is a failure to recognize the Spirit because the Spirit only has one fruit and only feels one way. If one adds Satan's counterfeits, normal human emotions, and/or only part of the characteristics of the then there will be the appearance that the Spirit feels different ways but in reality that the person does not know how to distinguish between the Spirit from other sources. And, just the same, their fruits will reveal that they are failing to know the Spirit. A common characteristic of those that fail to know the Spirit is anger, impatience, pride, and/or contention. It is very easily remedied by simply becoming humble, turning to God, and seeking the Spirit's guidance.
  17. It didn't come across correctly, then, because I am not saying anything about the Sure Word of Prophecy. That comes long after the Baptism of Fire. The Baptism of Fire comes after the faith and repentance which was roughly outlined. I don't know much about the Sure Word of Prophecy thus cannot comment on it, and if I do it is as useless opinion other than that it comes at the end of the straight and narrow path. What makes you think I would be a Snufferite???
  18. I think we could agree that as a child the "testimony" is not their own but rather an expression of other's testimony. The Spirit was likely there but not recognized because of the lack of temptations. From that point on the temptations began coming. In the teen years most of us really mess up as far as the Spirit is concerned and lose the Spirit due to choosing to comply with the temptation(s). That was our fault, not the church's and not the Lord's. It was us that abandoned God through choosing wickedness after we have been taught what was right and that directly resulted in a loss of the Spirit. It isn't quite as comical when we realize just how far we've fallen in becoming of our own. Ok, so now that we've really messed up and booted the Spirit from our daily living, perhaps even our life, what are we going to do about it? Are we going to fight God on what the Spirit is through stiffneckedness? Are we going to demand that God complies with what we believe to be truth? Or are we finally going to humble ourselves and turn back to God as a child? "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child,submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (Mosiah 3:19) If what you feel vs the testimony of the prophet is comical then the gospel is not being practiced and it needs to be taken seriously. Repentance is not understood nor is faith. Every person that comes to God in faith and repentance will have the same witness and faith as the prophet. Faith is not a mere belief in God but extends to a motivating force that causes us to do whatever it takes to be one with God. We seek out His will just so that we can comply with it in hopes of becoming one with Him. We will abhor sin and the pleasures of Babylon because those things draw us away from being totally unified with Him. That is faith and is the first principle of the gospel. That is what we were supposed to have before being admitted into the waters of baptism. The other prerequisite to baptism was repentance. Repentance is not merely feeling sorry for having broken a commandment. Repentance is feeling miserable because the Holy Spirit is not present with us and being felt. Thus we realize what we did that caused the Spirit to be offended, apologize to God for it, and diligently strive to change whatever it was that caused the loss of the Spirit. If that is adhered to then obedience to the commandment will come naturally and the obedience will not be out of fear of future punishment but rather out of knowing that we will not be one with God and that the Spirit will withdraw. Change the perspective of those two principles and adhere to them then you'll discover that the faith and testimony is right there with the prophet's.
  19. They have and in different ways. It is found in Preach My Gospel. It is contained in the series Teaching by the Spirit and also Teaching: No Greater Calling. Recognizing the Spirit and receiving a witness of the gospel from the Spirit are essentials before baptism. In other words, all members have been interviewed and were supposed to have been verified as knowing how to distinguish the Spirit. Since all members are already supposed to be familiar with the Spirit why would it be assumed that leaders would conclude that it needs retaught every conference? If it needs retaught every conference then why are people being permitted to be baptized that don't know the Spirit? Baptism is supposed to be a sacred ordinance not a mere formality for joining a club. This gospel needs to be taken seriously and with full purpose of heart, not half-heartedly.
  20. When a person reads something they will apply their own mannerism to what is being read. Take the story of Jesus cleansing the temple, for example. Most read the account and then apply their own selves in the situation. They read of how He tipped over the tables, threw the money across the floor, and drove the violators out with a whip. They ponder on how they would feel in order for that to happen. The only thing they can come up with is that Jesus must have been feeling anger as they would feel anger if they were to do the same thing. They then go as far as to claim that Jesus was angry. However that simply was not so! Nowhere in scriptures does it suggest that Jesus was angry when He cleansed the temple. What Jesus felt was something that most cannot feel because most do not live a life with Christlike love, let alone understand it, thus cannot accurately comprehend what He was feeling. That is called "projection". Notice how projection played a role in what you have read from me. I did not yell even once. I did not feel anger in what I said. I did not overstep the bounds in stewardship in what I have said. There was no condemnation but rather a pointing out that there is something greater. But because of projection that conclusion was reached. That means that that is how you would have been feeling if you made the same comments. Yelling and anger opposes the Spirit. So what does that again indicate? There's a greater life with the Spirit....
  21. You have a great potential as do us all. That great potential is discovered in truly knowing God. " 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of Godknoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:9-11) If the Spirit is not known then what God has prepared is yet to be discovered. The Spirit is not known from periodic inspiration and revelation but rather through diligently seeking the Spirit to be continually with us. Your comments indicate a lack of truly knowing the Spirit. For example it was not known that all of the attributes in Galatians 5:22-23 must be present. If that is not known then there must be an incorrect perception of the Spirit. If there's an incorrect perception of the Spirit then it opens the door to false manifestations and false revelations. But the bigger issue is that the greatest things of God have not been realized nor is the potential being realized even though you're convinced it is. It's simple, though: seek the Spirit as provided then, when the presence is positively identified, ask God for understanding. If I'm blowing smoke in your face then it will be readily made clear, right? If a question is posed and you know answer A but not B then how do you know that A is the right answer? If I know answer A and also know answer B then why do you feel to dispute me when it is shown that the correct answer is B? Before disputing shouldn't you first know answer B??? Answer B is Galatians 5:22-23 as was presented. Answer A is "lots of ways". The question is "How does the Spirit feel". Why not learn B so that you can knowingly dispute it? My attempt is to try to help others that are stuck in failing to understand the Spirit. "Every member a missionary" and that includes to members that are stuck. There will always be those, such as yourself, that will not entertain the thought that they might be spinning their wheels in the gospel so they disregard it when pointed out due to pride. So be it. But if it might help someone else that feels like they are spinning their wheels then it was worth being placed in a position to be ridiculed by you and the others. Who knows, maybe even some day when you are feeling the Spirit the words may come back to you and the Spirit uses them to give you direction. Or maybe even the very thought that there's something you haven't experienced will cause you to earnestly seek it. Right now I see it is fruitless with you but maybe some day...
  22. How does one know if they are getting closer to God unless they know God? Take Mr. ******* as an example: he thought he was getting closer to God because he was feeling enlightened in his studies and he even felt something to go along with it. He then inspired other members in his learning and beliefs. He ended up being excommunicated yet still believes he is getting closer to God. Do you want "unbaptized"? He believes it is necessary for exaltation, and then one must be rebaptized by him. Did his revelations and enlightenment truly bring him closer to God? If so then does one get closer to God through excommunication? Joseph Smith stated that there are three sources for revelation: God, ourself, and Satan. How can one differentiate between the three? All will feel enlightening. All may contain a voice. All may even be right. Since all can appear to be from God how will one differentiate? Recognizing the Spirit is at the heart of the issue. Some believe that if they feel enlightened then it is the Spirit, such as with Mr. ******* and other apostates. I have a brother that was ready to believe the flat-earth theory because he felt enlightened by good arguments. If one can go as far to actually believe the flat-earth theory (and there's many that do) and it came from feeling enlightened then what does that tell us regarding the sources for the feeling of enlightenment? Please detail the different feelings that you have found to be associated with the Spirit.
  23. How do you know it is the Spirit when feeling enlightened? A person very often feels enlightened without the Spirit - it happens all the time. Good motivational speakers earn big $$$ by enlightening and inspiring others without regard to the Spirit. It also happens in school classrooms all the time when the Spirit is absent. What makes you sure it is the Spirit that is doing the enlightening? Feelings through music are more often not of the Spirit but rather normal emotions stirred up through the music - that's part of being human. And the same with movies and plays. How do you know it's the Spirit rather than otherwise? How how do you know the peace was from the Spirit? Even Jesus pointed out that there's two types of peace so how is it known which peace is being experienced? "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you." (John 14:27) Notice that one of the attributes of the fruit of the Spirit is "longsuffering". The opposite is impatience. Your responses seem to fit "impatience" better than "longsuffering". That's one missing attribute. Another attribute of the Spirit is "temperance". The opposite is "easily offended". Your responses appear more in line with "easily offended" rather than "temperance". That's another missing attribute. Another attribute of the Spirit is "peace". The opposite of peace is "contentious". Your responses have been more of contention than peace ("good grief", "that was convoluted"). That's another missing attribute. Is there any question why you would challenge me when I said that ALL the attributes in Galatians 5:22-23 must be present? It is readily observed that they are not ALL present in your responses. If they aren't present in your responses then what does that indicate regarding being with you personally? We don't get the Spirit by trying to change truth to suit our wishes but rather by accepting truth as it is and striving to conform to it. Why not just do an experiment and seek for that spirit in which ALL of the attributes are present so that you can determine for yourself? Why contend against what I shared rather than simply proving it THEN expressing to the contrary? I'm not a woman and I've never been to Washington, let alone live there.
  24. Look at the bright side: You have a very awesome experience waiting for you once you discover the Spirit! In it you will find the treasures including experiencing the "unspeakable joy". If you think you've had it good up to this point then just wait and see what happens!!!