rygard1

Every "conclusion" I have posted has been hypothetical. It has only been my intention to consider the available possibilities given the ambiguity of certain statements in D&C 138. You are confused because you have assumed that I thought that I had arrived at a definite conclusion. Of course a lack of evidence one way or another is an issue. Exhaustively considering the available possibilities is only constructive, given a lack of logical proof for any one possibility, if additional evidence can strengthen the plausibility of one of those possibilities. The whole point of posting this was to get people thinking so that somebody might possibly provide some additional information of which I am unaware relating to translated beings and their activity in the spirit world, or lack thereof. You have pointed out, and correctly so, that some of my "conclusions" are not necessarily true, which is of course true. No additional information has come forth.

Carborendum: you said “You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what is NOT written. Why do you wish to know about an assumption you're already taking as fact?” Yes, the absence of any indication in D&C 138 that Enoch and Elijah were in the spirit world does not logically guarantee that they were not. It does seem odd to me, however, that D&C 138 seems to suggest, when JST Mark 9:3 is taken into consideration, that “Elias” meaning John the Baptist (at least) was in the spirit world. If Joseph F. Smith were referring to John the Baptist, why could he not simply say so? Especially if Elijah were also in the spirit world? The fact that “Elias” is mentioned in verse 45 in connection with the Mount of Transfiguration seems to be an obvious reference to JST Mark 9:3, otherwise why would “Elijah” be mentioned in verses 46 and 47? If the fact that Elijah is mentioned in verses 46 and 47 appears to strengthen the case that verse 45 is referring to John the Baptist, this only makes sense if the individual mentioned in verses 46 and 47 is not the same individual mentioned in verse 45. As I see it, the likely possibilities are that “Elias” in verse 45 is a reference to Elijah using the language of the English KJV, so that John the Baptist is not mentioned at all, or John the Baptist is the individual mentioned in this verse. However, one could assume that “Elias” might simultaneously refer to Elijah and John the Baptist, and this might be the easiest but strangest assumption to make. It is true that D&C 138 says nothing about Enoch; but the fact that Elijah is expressly mentioned multiple times, and immediately after the Mount of Transfiguration is mentioned, is somewhat odd whether or not these verses are meant to convey the idea that Elijah was in the spirit world. Also, I’m glad you brought up the following statement from TPJS; it is partly because of this and similar statements that it seems odd to me that translated beings would reside in the spirit world, even if only temporarily unless they are involved in missionary work. "Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead" (TPJS, p. 170). It is evident that Elijah and Moses were not involved in missionary work in the spirit world because they were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection. Unless they were only there to strengthen the others in paradise it seems like a waste of spiritual power. I have read accounts of near death experiences, particularly in Duane S. Crowther’s book “Life Everlasting” which seem to indicate that resurrected beings can visit or even inhabit the spirit world. Resurrected beings, at least, are referred to in Alma 11 and 1 Cor. 15 as being “spiritual”, and so I see no reason why this could not be true. Pre-mortal spirits are thought to dwell in “heaven” and in this scenario there is of course no reason for resurrected beings to be unable to dwell in the same environment as unembodied spirits. D&C 129:1-3 is also worth considering: 1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones— 2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. The fact that D&C 129 says nothing about translated beings does not exclude the possibility that translated beings could reside in the presence of God, but this section does not indicate that this is the case, nor do other statements from Joseph Smith such as the statement you quoted. I have also thought that the statement by Joseph Smith you quoted is interesting given this statement by Joseph Smith: I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it. (D&C 130:5) My current interpretation of the preceding verse is that the angels who minister to this earth have either had a mortal experience upon it or will have a mortal experience upon it. If so, within this context Joseph Smith was referring generally to all messengers of God. If both statements are true as I understand them then it would appear that this earth is unique in the sense that individuals who have “belonged” to this earth can minster to those on other planets, while those who do belong or will belong to any other planet cannot minister to those on this earth. If I remember correctly, in Hugh Nibley’s talk “Secrets of the Scriptures” he mentioned that there are early century Christian documents in which the idea is expressed that the mortal probation experienced by those who inhabit this earth is a more difficult test or period of proving than that experienced by those who inhabit other worlds. This is an unusual proposition, but perhaps there are other beings more spiritually advanced than ourselves who were sent to terrestrial worlds rather than telestial worlds. mordorbund: You mentioned D&C 110, and I hadn’t thought to use this section in connection with this topic, but interestingly the same pattern is found in section 110, where “Elias” who “committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham” is mentioned in verse 12, and then “Elijah” is mentioned in verses 13 and 14. In this context it is obvious that Elijah is not the person referred to in verse 12 as he was not alive in the days of Abraham; I have thought that perhaps the individual in verse 12 might be Melchizedek. LeSellers: You have wondered why I have asked this question. It isn’t as though I wouldn’t like to know more about Moses, Elijah and Enoch, but my primary reason for thinking about this in the first place has been to gain a greater understanding of the plan of salvation as a whole.

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:2-4) The JST for the last verse in the preceding passage is as follows: And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses, or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. Now, the fact that Joseph Smith’s translation indicates that John the Baptist appeared to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration does not mean that “Elias”, the Greek form of Elijah, was originally meant to refer to someone other than Elijah, so that it can be concluded that in addition to Moses and Elijah John the Baptist was also present. It is generally accepted LDS belief that Moses and Elijah must have been translated beings at the time of their appearance on the Mount of Transfiguration, because if they had been unembodied spirits at that time they could not have transferred priesthood keys to Peter, James and John. Given this understanding it logically follows that John the Baptist did not transfer priesthood keys at this time as he had previously been beheaded and could not have yet been resurrected. The following verses indicate that Moses, Elijah and John the Baptist (among others who are mentioned) were resurrected following Christ’s resurrection: In all their afflictions he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them; and in his love, and in his pity, he redeemed them, and bore them, and carried them all the days of old; Yea, and Enoch also, and they who were with him; the prophets who were before him; and Noah also, and they who were before him; and Moses also, and they who were before him; And from Moses to Elijah, and from Elijah to John, who were with Christ in his resurrection, and the holy apostles, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, shall be in the presence of the Lamb. (D&C 133:53-55) The following verses from D&C 138 mention Elijah and Elias: Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration; And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there. The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers, (D&C 138:45-47) The preceding verses indicate that Elias and Malachi were among those who “… were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world…” (D&C 138:16). Elijah is mentioned, but there is no indication that he was “Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous…” (D&C 138:38) Taken as a whole, section 138 seem to imply that Elijah was not in the spirit world during Christ’s ministry to the spirits in paradise. Since it is commonly supposed that Elijah was a translated being until his resurrection, this would be unremarkable if it were not for the fact that “…Moses, the great law-giver of Israel…” (D&C 138:41) is referred to as being present in the spirit world during Christ ministry in paradise. D&C 138 is conspicuously absent of any mention of Enoch, who would have been a translated being until his resurrection after the resurrection of Christ, as D&C 133:54 would seem to suggest. According to the following passages from Deuteronomy and Joshua, Moses died: So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. (Deut. 34:5-7) Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. (Josh. 1:1-2) The following verse is the only verse of which I am aware that suggest that Moses did not die: Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the Spirit, or buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial. (Alma 45:19) According to the verse in Alma “the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself”. There are at least a Jewish tradition that Moses was overshadowed by a cloud and taken up into heaven, and something such as this may have been included on the brass plates; but it is apparent that after Moses died sometime after his appearance to Peter, James and John, otherwise he would not have been in the spirit world prior to his resurrection. LDS tradition, if it can be called that, maintains that Moses was translated and was changed in the twinkling of an eye following Christ’s resurrection. Again, neither Enoch nor Elijah seems to have been in the spirit world prior to their resurrection, but Moses was, which is consistent with the hypothesis that he died. If so, why would he (or John the Baptist for that matter) have appeared to Peter, James and John? Moses, Elijah and Elias.docx