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Casslan

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  1. The People before Adam

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Casslan

    In regards to the OP this probably says it all:

    The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

    Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. (Ecclesiastes 1:9-10)

  2. Undergarments

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    We believe that once one converts to Judaism their bloodline becomes 100% Jewish so it's not exactly a racial issue.

    Then thats why there appears to be no Jewish DNA in the native Americans!

    The natives converted into the religion of the Nephites and became followers of the One True God and as a result of their conversion, were adopted into the House of Israel and by that adoption their bloodline became 100% of the lineage of Israel. DNA doesnt come into it since they are of the bloodline by adoption.

  5. Discrepancies In the Nativity Story

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    It recently came to my attention that the birth narratives of Jesus in the gospels of Matthew and Luke are irreconcilably contradictary. According to Matthew, the Savior and his parents are from Bethlehem, stay there for two years after Jesus' birth, fly to Egypt to escape King Herod, and arrive at Nazareth for the first time once Herod is dead. In Luke, Mary and Joseph are from Nazareth, travel to Bethlehem for the census, stay there only a month during her purification according to Levitical law, and then return back home to Nazareth. There is no flight to Egypt, no wise men following a star, no death decree by Herod.

    After reading these narratives closely, it becomes obvious that Matthew and Luke are telling two totally different, contradicting stories. Both of them can't be true. The prophet, Nephi, prophesied that Jesus' mother would be from Nazareth but only says that Jesus would be born in "the land of Jerusalem". There are no other places in the standard works that specify where Jesus was born or how he got there.

    My question is, has anyone else here noticed this and how do we reconcile it with the Church's position that the Bible is the word of God (originally written by inspired men) and that the only errors in it are mistranlations and interpolations here and there?

    Since Luke was a Greek gentile and he was writing for gentile followers of Jesus, then perhaps Luke's account is an abridged version of the Nativity events.

  8. Rapture?

    in Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints

    Posted

    The Lord Jesus will come Post Tribulation.

    The following is by me [as Ephraimsdaughter] posted in another forum:

    All quotes are from the KJV.

    There is no rapture as defined by some "Christians". Believers are "not removed" from the earth before the times of trouble. Jesus himself said the following:

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Matthew 24:29-42 - emphasis on Verses 31 & 40-41).

    Further information to show the events after the fact rather than before - the dead in Christ first, then those believers who have survived:

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Thessalonians 4:16-17).

  11. Doctrine we agree on

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    quote 2. Believers must not marry unbelievers. 2 Cor. 6:14 quote

    Again, we find that 2 Cor. 6:14 lends credence to this idea among the LDS circles. Part of the emphasis on this idea stems from the doctrine of eternal marriage, discussed in greater detail below. Once the point of marriage has been reached, it is no longer enough for an ideal couple to merely hold to 'high standards of moral integrity'; covenants need to be made in the temple that seal the marriage as binding for eternity. Those covenants cannot be made by non-members, and therefore an ideal LDS marriage excludes by necessity being married to non-believers.

    Despite this being the ideal, for both members of the LDS church and non-members, one cannot dictate who one falls in love with.

    The apostle Paul wrote the following:

    But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

    For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

    For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

    But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. (1Corinthians 7:12-17).

    So mixed religious marriages, though not the ideal are not condemned. There is always hope that at some point, the unbelieving spouse converts.

  15. First Vision: Did Joseph hallucinate?

    in Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints

    Posted · Edited by Casslan

    At last count there are at least 100 different sects that utilize the Book of Mormon in their worship services and doctrine. Most agree on the call of the Prophet Joseph to restore the Gospel. As such, many agree with Josephs writings on the First Vision.

    I was rather astounded when I was surfing the web one night several years ago, to discover that the Community of Christ web site had refined the First Vison, basically down to a hallucination on the part of the young Joseph.

    Let me start with the LDS version of the First Vision:

    As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” ( James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. He described his experience: “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. . . . When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17). In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong.” The Savior stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

    Mormon.org - The Restoration of the Gospel

    Now the following is the Community of Christ's view of the First Vision:

    In the early 1800s, a young boy named Joseph Smith knelt in the woods near his family home in Manchester Township, New York. He felt separated from God; he also wanted to know how he could make his life count for good in a world full of confusion and sin. He wanted to join with God’s people, but he had no idea how to do that. So, in response to the scripture from James, he prayed to God.

    How long this first attempt at verbal prayer lasted is not known, but he came to a point of deep despair. At this point, a vision surrounded him with love and mercy. From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. He felt the healing presence of God within and the forgiving mercy of Christ. He knew that God would be with him.

    He struggled through his teen years, trying to balance his experience with God with his desire to be accepted by others in his community. He continued to have significant spiritual experiences, one of which led to the Book of Mormon. He also felt called to establish a church, officially organizing it on April 6, 1830.

    Our History - Introduction

    As one can read...The Community of Christ has turned its back on the writings of our Prophet Joseph, in favor of a distilled "hallucination" of a young boy.

    Additionally...and we can discuss this, the Community of Christ has turned it's back on the divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

    The Community of Christ is struggling. They are trying to have a foot in the Restorationist world, and one in the Protestant world.

    In order to become a member of the World Organization of Churches, they had to downplay the Book of Mormon. The BoM now is optional for its members to believe in. Joseph Smith's testimony has been watered down, so as to make him a charismatic leader rather than a prophet (they don't ascribe hallucinations to him, however).

    Many of their precepts have changed in the last decade or so. Their view that the prophet must be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith is no longer followed nor believed.

    They have had many break away from the CoC, in order to keep closer to their Restorationist roots. Others have joined the LDS Church over the past few years.

    Still, there are many good people in the CoC with a strong testimony of Christ and Joseph Smith.

    [An aside note rameumptom: Also do not forget that they have given women the priesthood, as well, like some of the more liberal Christians churches of the world who have women priests].

    Responding to 2 posts here. When they joined the Protestant world, the Community of Christ HAD TO MAKE CHANGES in regards [in this instance] to the First Vision. They now teach the doctrine of the Trinity, which allows no possibility of a physical appearance of the Father and the Son together.

    The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. The God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God who alone is worthy of our worship. (cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp)

    And in regards to the Book of Mormon, though still accepted as scripture, it has been downgraded:

    In 2001, Community of Christ President W. Grant McMurray reflected on increasing questions about the Book of Mormon: "The proper use of the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture has been under wide discussion in the 1970s and beyond, in part because of long-standing questions about its historicity and in part because of perceived theological inadequacies, including matters of race and ethnicity." (McMurray, W. Grant, "They "Shall Blossom as the Rose": Native Americans and the Dream of Zion," an address delivered February 17, 2001)

    At the 2007 Community of Christ World Conference, President Stephen M. Veazey ruled out of order a resolution to "reaffirm the Book of Mormon as a divinely inspired record". He stated that "while the Church affirms the Book of Mormon as scripture, and makes it available for study and use in various languages, we do not attempt to mandate the degree of belief or use. This position is in keeping with our longstanding tradition that belief in the Book of Mormon is not to be used as a test of fellowship or membership in the church." (Andrew M. Shields, "Official Minutes of Business Session, Wednesday March 28, 2007," in 2007 World Conference Thursday Bulletin, March 29, 2007. Community of Christ, 2007).