newvid

That is the unfortunate mind game you use to try to fool yourself and others. Yes, apparently, you believe He was A god always, but not THE God, since you do not just have ONE TRUE God in your belief system. God the Father was a god, just as you believe you and I are "gods", part of the happy, ginormous "god family". So God is like a butterfly who goes through all these different Metamorphoses, starting as a spirit child, then entering an embryonic human body, then being born and growing normally as a man, then dying and being resurrected and becoming the exalted god, who is still man, and then the whole process begins again! That is NOT the God of the Bible and reality. Yes, God the Father and God the Son are two separate personalities within the ONE GOD. THe problem is that we try to define "GOD" according to human wisdom and understanding, which is impossible. Somehow the two (three actually) beings are individuals, yet are still one and the SAME, not separate, GOD. NOwhere, NOWHERE in the the True WORD OF GOD is there any indication, when SPEAKING OF God is HE addressed as anything other than ONE, as an individual. When I pray to God the Father, I am praying to the Son and the Holy Spirit as well, as were all the Christians in the Bible, and as were the Old Testament saints, even though the nature of God was a mystery to them at the time. Jesus in the greates, most UNIQUE act in history left His absolute oneness, HIS GLORY, in heaven with the Father to confine and limit Himself to a human body for US and then to retain that body for eternity to identify with His creation, as someone we can always look and relate to, yet his essense and glory are still connected and shared with the Godhead in a way that our finite minds cannot fully grasp. Just accept what the Word teaches!

They are and have been tried, tested and found wanting MANY times. All you need for life, godliness and a relationship with your Creator is what is found in the pages of the Holy Bible, God's perfect, revealed Word. I, too love you, with God's love and trust Him to reveal Himself to you in His time and His way. Time for bed. Must get up for Church tomorrow. We are having a prophecy conference (meaning already revealed prophecy in His Word) and I am excited about it!

Amazing that such an important matter of "doctrine" was completely left out of the body of this doctrine! It is nowhere in God's word and not even in official Mormon 'scriptures". All this speculation proves nothing. "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 cor 3:17 and "God is NOT a man, that he should lie" Num 23:19. GOd is NOT a man, nor an exalted man of anykind. He is Spirit. That is His nature. Jesus BECAME a man, but always retained His godly nature, thus he was the "God-man" at all times. That is opposite of Mormon teaching that states, as man is, god once was, as God is man may BECOME. Jesus, on the contrary BECAME man, but eternally existed as God. There is NO "god mother". However, since men and women are created in His image, I would say God contains within His nature both female and male like characteristics, since we are created in His image. SOme challenges for any willing to look into it: Answering Mormons

I am neither. I am a Christian. Absolutely not RC, nor protestant, though I certainly do "protest" against the falsehoods of the RC church, the Mormon and JW organizations, and any errors that seek to "prevail against" the truth of God. The prevailing against refers to the church, not Peter's statement, not Peter himself, and Jesus clearly stated the gates of hell, the lies, deception, destructiveness of Satan and his minions would not prevail against the work of God's church. Yes, there are setbacks, yes there are struggles all through church history, but not a complete loss of the church. There is nothing to indicate anywhere in Scripture that anytime in history there would be a complete loss of God's truth. Even in the examples you sited,there has always been a godly remnant, always. Actually the longest period of time of lack of revelation and proper following of God was between Malachi and Christ, a 500 year period where there was no revelation and a continual build-up of man-made rules and regulations contrary to God's truth, yet there still remained a godly remnant. Christ came to fulfill the law and establish His church, which would be the end times vessel He would use to spread His gospel to the ends of the earth till His return, and the church, to one degree or another, not perfectly, has done that and continues to. Mormons actually expect the world to accept that somehow virtually as soon as the church was established it lost its light and apostasized,which is ludicrous. The Scriptures and history are too complete and clear to allow for such a thing. There is ZERO evidence that the Word of God was corrupted as the Mormon church claims, but just the opposite. The Word of God has been miraculously preserved through the centuries, which is one of the proofs of its veracity and divine origin. Then along comes this farmer in up state NY and suddenly the church is restored and new Scriptures are added and we suddenly have the "truth". So how corrupt is the Bible, anyway? What do YOU believe? What do you believe your mormon scriptures add to the Word of God? My Bible tells me that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." I suppose you would say that includes Mormon Scripture, right? Sad the church did not have what it needed all those years, huh? I guess it was NOT thoroughly furnished as God's Word promised. Sad we were not able to carry out the great commission for so long till Joseph Smith came to set us straight.

Twisted the Word of God? I am not the one who invented new scripture and claimed it to be even higher than THE Word of God. How many books of Scriptures do the Mormons have? Malcolm, I'm happy for you that you have it all figured out and the Mormon church is the one true church now and has "restored" Christianity, since God was not able to keep it faithful for 1830 years, until Mr. Smith came along to help him out. I guess when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail againts it, He meant at least not till Joseph Smith came on the scene and rescued it. Like I said, forums like this are a waste. The "god of this world" has truly blinded the eyes of those who walk in disobedience, especially in disobedience to the revealed and completed Word of God. May God lead you into all truth. Peace.

Does this forum originate in Australia or something? I am on the East Coast in USA and it is 9:21 AM, but my post says it is 1:55 PM? Go figure.

I know forums like this are pretty much fruitless, except to proclaim the Truth of God and, perhaps, some SEARCHING, not someone who is unwilling to hear, will have his/her heart opened, and believe. anyway: And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were (PAST TENSE) with him in the holy mount. [19] We have (PRESENT TENSE - speaking of REVEALED SCRIPTURE) also a more (MORE CERTAIN, than even the fleeting "voice from heaven", because it is established and forever) sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (THIS PRIMARILY MEANS THAT IT DID NOT COME BY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION IN THE CONTEXT - SEE THE NEXT ONE). [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake (PAST TENSE - NOT NOW, BUT THEN) as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Yes he warned of those who corrupted Paul's teachings, which he also called SCRIPTURE. IT was known even then that Paul's words were Scripture, on even par with the Old Testament. In this day God uses to teach His people: 1. HIs completed Word in conjuction with 2. The Holy Spirit, 3. Pastors, 4. Teachers. Prophets, primarily, reveal new information, future events, etc. Apostles were given to actually pen the New Testament, as well as NEw Testament Prophets (which the Apostles also were). ONce we have those Words, and we do today, we need only to be taught and "take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in (our) hearts:.." IN the sense that there are those gifted with exhorting from God's Word, making it clearer, yes we have "prophets" today, but not in the Old Testament or beginning of the church sense. What AMOS said is correct, and God did reveal to His servants, through the Prophets, His final revelation, and now, praise God, we HAVE IT. There is nothing left to be "revealed" but only made more light for our understanding, until He returns. The reformation is so misunderstood, sadly, by so many, and that is primarily because, for centuries, the Catholic church pretty much controlled the wider telling of "history". However, there is another history not often told, and that is that there have ALWAYS been true Christians figting against error and false teaching. During the time, and before the reformation, that the Catholic church was in power, there were true CHristians being persecuted, starting from the time of the Apostles and continuing right up to this day. Please see the simple little book online called THE TRAIL OF BLOOD for a clear history of the Christian CHurch throughout the centuries, how it never stopped and how the gates of hell did NOT prevail against it in anyway. NOTHING was lost. GOd preserved His Words and His church as He promised. JOseph Smith restored nothing. The reformation, to get back to that, was simply people IN the Catholic church coming to realize the errors of the organization and coming to true faith in Jesus and then speaking out about it. This would be no different than someone in the Catholic church today seeing the truth, being born again, and leaving that institution. This led to other people doing the same and following the original leaders of each movement. There were, in fact, many born again Christians at the time instructing some of the newly converted Christians who came out of the Catholic institution, since Christians were ALWAYS there. El ELyon simply means The Most High God, nothing more. There is no "council" of gods. There is THE Godhead, the ONE true God, period. Eternal life, in God's context, refers to self-existence, no beginning, no ending. IN regards to people (and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish) it means an eternal state that DOES have a beginning, it refers to both quality (non perishable) and quantity (never ending) life, one that continues without a finish, in God's presence. I quoted Hebrews SLIGHTLY wrong, but it means the same. "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be (future tense) to him a Father, and he shall be (future tense) to me a Son?" But before that it was: In the beginning WAS the WORD, and the WORD WAS with GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.: John 1:1 HE eternally existed in the Godhead as The Word. HE BECAME the Son of God when brought into the World as a man. Some Christians disagree with this, but that is how I see it. Bottom line is that He ALWAYS existed as God. HE was NOT created. Of course God is the Father of His children, those who are adopted as His children. (Gal 1:5; Eph 4:5) What's the point you are making? HE is also Jesus Father, positionally, as Jesus BECAME the Son of Man, when he was brought physically, for our redemption, into this world. But their relationship is not the same as a creature to a Creator as ours is. If Jesus is God, He is eternal, as God is. Logically. "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Jn 17:5; "Thus saith God JEHOVAH, he that created the heavens...he that spread forth the earth...he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein (WE ACCEPT THIS IS THE GOD, RIGHT?) HE GOES ON TO SAY: "my glory will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER,..." (Is 42:5, 8) Jesus shared the same glory as God, because He was (is) God. YOu even said JEHOVAH was Jesus, well, here we have HIM saying HE is God the Creator, the eternal God, who will share His glory with no one else. Jesus is either the eternal God or God does not exist. Both you and "Jehovah's witnesses" get this so wrong. Read what JEHOVAH actually says about 'other gods": "Ye are my witnesses, saith JEHOVAH and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he (Jesus quotes and applies this "I am He" to himself in Jn 8:24): before me there was NO GOD FORMED, neither shall there be AFTER ME." (Is 43:10) The very verse "jehovah's witnesses" say they got their name from proves Jesus and God are one and the same, yet they deny He is God, in a similar way you deny He is the ONE TRUE God and not a separate "god". JEHOVAH clearly states in no uncertain terms that no TRUE God was FORMED (created) before nor after Him. Any other "god" would be a false one. Since Jesus is very God, He MUST be the ONE, TRUE, ETERNAL God. REad all of the verses around Isaiah, oh say, 42 - 46 and you will see this truth repeated over and over again. There is only ONE true God. Not multiple gods, not created gods, not exalted beings who BECOME gods. No, there is ONE. Praise HIS Name.

I truly feel for you not knowing you have the perfect WORDS of God to rely on and have to rely on "prophets" to determine God's truth for you. I, for one, have "more sure Word of Prophecy. I am surprised a missionary would have such a hard time explaining the difference between stating GOD has a Father and the positions within the Godhead. The Bible says that when Jesus was BROUGHT INTO THE WORLD, God said I will BE AS a Father to you. When Jesus took on human form, the relationship became a Father/Son relationship. Jesus, THE WORD, the eternal second person of the Trinity was NOT created, but only His human body was. He has eternally existed in the Godhead AS God. In the relational aspects of the Trinity, it is right to refer to God the Father and God the Son, but it is not the same as me (a created being) being the father of my son (another created being). NOw off to work!

on most counts, wrong. And, when I have more time this weekend, will explain why. Peace

True, but I hate to see a searching soul all wrapped up in the confusion of the "bible debate". All these different "versions" caused so much confusion for me in my early Christian walk. It was like, how can THIS be God's PERFECT Word, if THIS one is so much different and says something 100% differnt (and in some passages there are actual DOCTRINAL differences between versions). I used to laugh when people tried to tell me an Old English version was God's preserved WORDS, till I actually humbled myself and allowed the Lord to teach me and SHOW me the truth, through the Spirit, and not through MAN'S "wisdom". ANyways, just MHO.

cgrantreed, I encourage you to stick to the link I sent you. Also, look up the book An Understandable History of the Bible online. It is a clear explanation of how we got our Bible and how God PRESERVED it for us. With due respect to Maureen, all these multiple versions of Bibles are corruptions. The word used for virgin in Hebrew does NOT automatically mean young woman, but CAN mean virgin (the thought of the Hebrew was that young maidens WERE virgins), and, since the New Testament TELLS US what it is SUPPOSED to say, the KJV got it right. THe RSV did not. God knows what He is doing. Again, we as Christians can agree to disagree on some issues, but we do NOT disagree on God's plan of salvation, the True Gospel that Paul gave his life defending.

:huh::huh::huh::I just spent 15 minute replying to you and it did not go through. Oh well. You missed out on a very good response. Oh well. Not going through that again. Just check out this link on the KJV: 'The Answer Book' by Samuel C. Gipp IT was translated by a very accomplished translation committe, not King James. He only authorized the translation.

cgrantreed, it seems the ONLY thing I can really agree with your religion about is the use of the KJV, but even that is different, as I believe it IS THE WORD OF GOD, not that it best CONTAINS some of the Word of GOd which has not been corrupted in some places. No, it IS THE WORDS OF ALMIGHTY GOD, nothing less. IT is the most accurate translation. IT agrees with the majority of manuscripts. IT has been tried and tested for hundreds of years, and yet it stands. NOw about the born of water part. In the KJV it clearly refers to physical birth, as Jesus then goes on to say "That which is BORN OF FLESH is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit" He defines His terms RIGHT THERE. THey corrolate to "Born of water" (physical birth) and "Born again" (spiritual rebirth). He is simply saying that you cannot just be born physically to enter into the kingdom of heaven, but must ALSO have the birth from above (born again/spiritual birth of the Spirit). Let the context speak for itself. Try it, you'll love it!

Thanks, Shell, :)and Praise the Lord!

I'm so tired that I do not have time to reply in any detail, but, SilkRose, you did basically a good job, but, sadly, are selling the charismatic bill of goods to people. Tongues and prophecy (as in telling the future - direct revelation) has ceased (1 Cor 13). There are a number of ways to prophesy. When I speak the Word of God, telling of prophetic things He has revealed, I am prophesying. I am FORTHtelling HIs Word, just as much as someone who had direct revelation in the Old Testament, becuase both stem from the revealed Words of God. Nowhere does it say the Two Witnesses will be delivering NEW revelation, though it is possible. We are told in Peter we have a MORE SURE Word of Prophecy, revealed in Scripture. THe foundation of the church was built UPON (past tense) the apostles and prophets. With the completed Word of God and the guiding of His Holy SPirit, we no longer need Prophets in the Old Testament sense of the word. This whole argument is clearly settled with some simple truths. THe mormons have "another Jesus". THey do not have the God of the Bible, the One who is Three in One. There are not three, or multiple, gods. As man is, God NEVER was, nor will man EVER become as God IS. GOd is eternal, never had a beginning. Jesus was NOT created, as they teach. Jesus is also eternal. Salvation IS by grace ALONE (there is not alternative) through faith ALONE. NOthing can be applied. James' point is simply that OUTWARDLY our salvation means nothing if it cannot be demonstrated by works. We are created UNTO good works, NOT saved BY them, in ANY way. IT is ALL of Jesus' finished work. We cannot change ourselves. We cannot earn our way. Mormons believe in created gods, not in the eternal God, we as Christians know. THey believe in celestrial planetary systems that we may one day inhabit as exalted "gods". That is not Biblical Christianity. There can be multiple denominations because man is fallible. Genuine Christianity is about individuals and their personal one-on-one relationships with the living and true God. What building they visit or the name on the door matters not, but only what has truly occured in their hearts. Some churches, sadly, are now far removed from the New Testament model, but any body of believers, true believers, who meet together, are a church, and Christ is in the midst. The "temple" of mormonism, as Silk rightly pointed out, is nothing like the Biblical model, regardless if it is called a temple. WE, believers, are the TRUE temple of the Holy Spirit, not some building. Finally, it was mentioned somewhere about christians just "mumbling some words" and being saved. That misses the whole point. God searches THE HEART. HE KNOWS one's heart if a geuine conversion of faith has taken place. The only words I said when I was saved was "yes" over and over again, as I LISTENED to a prayer of saving faith. My words were echoing what was actually transforming inside my heart throught the power of the Holy Spirit. I was saved by grace, just like the thief on teh cross. To answer the question asked before, Paradise WAS the holding place for all those who had been saved, before Christ returned to heaven. Jesus told the thief he would be in paradise with him THAT day. Now he is in heaven with his Lord. Anyway, exhausted and need to get to sleep.