The Atonement and YouTube Postings

[MrNirom]

I need your help!

Recently I have been posting on YouTube and quite often the Atonement comes up.. Most Christians don't believe that the Garden of Getheseme has anything to do with the atonement and of couse they believe that by Grace are ye saved. So I just wanted someone else to review what I am posting to make sure I am not misleading or not teaching truths here. Any ideas or comments are appreciated. The format of YouTube is that you can only post a total of 500 letters and spaces (combined) at a time. So as you can tell.. this topic takes me 10 posts to accomplish. Thanks! So here is what I am posting:

What is the Atonement of Jesus Christ? Here is my explaination and my belief.

1: There is the law.

2: The breaking of the law (sin) has a punishment

3: God lives in his kingdom

4: No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.

Can we agree on these 4 points?

Lets say there was no Jesus to atone for our sins. What would happen?

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1. You have sinned or broke the law.

2. You must be punished. There is a punishment for every law broken.

3. Because you sinned.. you are now "unclean"

4. You are now punished.. you served your time and the punishment you served satisfies the Justice System.. and you are released.

5. You are still "unclean" and therefore can not enter into the kingdom of God.

6. Punishment itself does not remove the "unclean" status from our "record" (Book of Life).

Does this make sense?

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So without someone or something to remove the "unclean" status.. we can never enter the Kingdom of God.

So now there is Jesus Christ. He is the Son of God.. born of a virgin.. the only begotten of the Father. He comes to dwell in the form of man.. to be in the world but not of it. He commits no sin.. and is therefore "clean". He is the only man that can say this. His mother was human, and his Father was God, he was given the power to lay down his life.. and take it up again.

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When Christ agreed to the sacrifice he would be making.. he was taking upon him the sins of the world (the punishment of each sin that had been or will be committed). The Justice System required that for every law broken.. a punishment was to be served. So Christ agreed that he would receive the punishment. And he would receive this punishment for everyone.

So what does he require of us?.. for him doing this?

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1. To believe on him.

2. To Repent, be baptized of water and fire.

3. To obey all his commandments.

That is it.

If we do this.. he will take the punishment for the sins we committed. In the Garden of Getheseme is where he suffered this punishment. Now don't get excited.. we will talk about the cross and his sacrifice there in a minute. But in the Garden is were everything started.

Lets read in Luke 22:42-44

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42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared and angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: band his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

So we see that the process of the Atonement began in the Garden. So what of the Cross?

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Well.. remember I said earlier that the serving of the punishment fulfills the Justice System.. but does not make a person "clean" in the sight of God. Christ fulfilled the punishment part... but what of the "unclean" part? This is what "by the Grace of God" means. When Christ.. who was "clean" was put to death on the cross, the spilling of his blood (clean blood) is what was needed to make the status of "unclean" on our record be made “clean”.

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And to be “clean” is making the "unclean" be erased from the book of life as if it did not ever happen and the Lord remembers it no more. To fulfill all righteousness, Christ laid down his life, allowed himself to be sacrificed.. (he had the power to stop it).. he allowed it, and on the 3rd day he took his life back and returned to the Father. The sacrifice on the cross gave all of us the status of "clean". And being “clean”.. we can enter into the kingdom of God.

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This is the saving grace. We have to do nothing for this. It is given to us freely. But the punishment we have to serve is conditional. For us to use the "PUNISHMENT ALREADY SERVED” card.. we must do something for that. It is by works. Again.. we must believe in Christ (being saved is to have a change of heart), Repent, be baptized with water and fire, and must obey all the commandments, enduring to the end.

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Well what happens if we don't repent? If you don't repent.. then you will take the punishment of your sins upon yourself. Yes.. you will still be considered "clean" but you will be required to serve the punishment yourself . The Lord said:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

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16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.

Understanding the Atonement is the beginning of understanding who Jesus Christ is. God Bless you!

Last- :-)

[Justice]

It's a tricky discussion in person, much less on-line. For any of your points to be understood the Spirit must help.

We also believe that we are saved by grace. In spite of our best efforts, without the grace of Christ we are hopeless. Word this particularly careful.

Whenever you have discussions with people who believe differently, the best thing you can do is try to find something you can agree on and take baby steps away from that point. If a person doesn't trust you they won't even give your words a second thought. The best way to gain trust is to agree first.

Good luck. Maybe you can post a link to your discussion so we can follow it.

[MrNirom]

Justice,

I wish it worked like that. For someone to follow a discussion is practically impossible. You said:

In spite of our best efforts, without the grace of Christ we are hopeless.

I know I said This is what "by the Grace of God" means. So you think I should word it differently? I wanted to make sure that the concept of what you see is sound doctrine. Thanks.

[Justice]

Here are 3 different definitions in the Study Helps in the scriptures. I will highlight the parts I find most useful in discussions.

GS Grace

The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adam’s fall and also because of man’s weaknesses.

BD Grace

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25: 23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15: 1-11). See also John 1: 12-17; Eph. 2: 8-9; Philip. 4: 13; D&C 93: 11-14.

And, for more understanding of the end results:

GS Justification, Justify

To be pardoned from punishment for sin and declared guiltless. A person is justified by the Savior’s grace through faith in him. This faith is shown by repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Jesus Christ’s atonement enables mankind to repent and be justified or pardoned from punishment they otherwise would receive.

And the listed scriptures:

In the Lord shall all Israel be justified, Isa. 45: 25. Not the hearers but the doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2: 13. Man is justified through the blood of Christ, Rom. 5: 1-2, 9. Ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, 1 Cor. 6: 11. Being justified by his grace, we shall be made heirs, Titus 3: 7. Was not Abraham our father justified by works? James 2: 21. By works a man is justified, and not by faith only, James 2: 14-26. By the law no flesh is justified, 2 Ne. 2: 5. My righteous servant shall justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities, Mosiah 14: 11 (Isa. 53: 11). Could ye say that your garments have been cleansed through Christ? Alma 5: 27. Justification through the grace of Jesus Christ is true, D&C 20: 30-31 (D&C 88: 39). By the Spirit ye are justified, Moses 6: 60.

Maybe use some of these statements verbatim, and build your post from the things you seem to agree on with those you will discuss this with. The fastest way to get someone to not listen is to call them wrong.

Just my 2 cents, and again, please post links to this discussion so we can follow it.