The Fall

[Justice]

There are many chapters and verses throughout the Book of Mormon that teach about the Fall. I'd like to begin with and focus on Alma 42 for now.

Sometimes a little background can help understand what's being taught.

Alma 42 are the words of Alma to his son Corianton (39-42 inclusive). Corianton was with his brothers on a mission to preach the gospel. He had been called and set apart to perform a holy calling. He forsook his mission and slept with a harlot. His father is trying to help him deal with the guilt of sin, and to understand sin a little better. Also, the resurrection is a big topic of his discussion to Corianton. Chapter 42 are his concluding remarks:

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

This is what Alma is trying to help his son understand. I'm going to concentrate on a few verses where Alma uses the Fall of Adam to help him see sin more clearly and the need for a Savior.

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

The above 2 verses are taught in the Bible as well. But, if you have any question or comment on them, PC, by all means...

Now, here is where the Book of Mormon begins to add to what is taught in the Bible.

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

The Book of Mormon teaches that the Fall of Adam was part of Father's Plan of Redemption, and that is why Christ was foreordained from before the foundation of the earth to redeem man... even before man fell. Yes, it is because of God's infinite knowledge, but it is more than his just "knowing" it was going to happen... it was part of His plan.

Watch this next part:

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

It was planned for man to "die." It was necessary for man to become mortal in order to fulfill God's plan. We can get into why if you'd like. But, for now I just want to point out the Book of Mormon teaches that the Fall was part of God's plan... not just something He knew would happen.

OK, the main point I'd like to discuss first about the Fall is here:

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

The result of the fall was that men were cut off temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord. We believe death is but a separation. Death does not mean "cease to exist." But, it's important to note the Book of Mormon clearly teaches 2 deaths, not just 1.

It was not "expedient" for man to be reclaimed from temporal death, or in other words, it was not what needed to be done first. It was important for men to be reclaimed from the spiritual death first.

Without getting too wordy, all you have to do is consider that we must become "born again" before we are resurrected and you will understand this point.

Now, after you study these 9 verses and offer comment and ask questions, and we are satisfied with these 9 verses, we'll move on.

I ask that we try to stay focused on only the principles mentioned in these verses.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Justice

[mountthepavement]

From the above:

" for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery"

-----

This doesn't sound like a very reasonable depiction of human psychology to me. Specifically, if one is to self-consciously call oneself a sinner, it is less likely that one will balk at experiencing misery in their lives. Rather, there is a kind of pride that encourages people to want to shoulder their sins themselves. (Ask an alcoholic if you don't believe me.) If I misunderstand human nature or the verse I quoted, let me know.

[Justice]

I don't think you misunderstand.

However, people are different. There are so many people that want to be told their sin isn't sin, or that because of Christ they don't have to worry about sin ever again. They say we can be justified in committing a little sin; He will beat us with a few stripes then redeem us. I'm guessing Corianton was one of them. It is less painful than facing it head on.

[mountthepavement]

Also, how is original sin transmitted? Or is it that it is simultaneous: We are all Adams and Eves? Or is it that we all just happen to sin at some point in our lives, thus becoming a sinner, contingently? Perhaps it is heritable? Like DNA? Do we volunteer to share in the sins of our fathers and pass it on like an heirloom?

Why would anyone on earth think it is injustice for god to punish rebellion? We may think a ruler himself is bad or unjust, but few would argue with the reasonableness of a ruler of punishing rebellion, don't you think? We rise up against a tyrant, but we can only expect that he will do whatever is in his power to put us down. Now, punishment of insurrection against a good leader must then be even more reasonable, except to the extent that a good leader knows when to punish and when to stay his hand against his subjects favoring other means.

Which is to say, I'm not sure I know where the author is coming from, but maybe I need more context.

[mountthepavement]

I don't think you misunderstand.

However, people are different. There are so many people that want to be told their sin isn't sin, or that because of Christ they don't have to worry about sin ever again. They say we can be justified in committing a little sin; He will beat us with a few stripes then redeem us. I'm guessing Corianton was one of them. It is less painful than facing it head on.

What does Christ do for our sin? I need a doctrinal lesson here.

[mountthepavement]

They say we can be justified in committing a little sin.

A primary source would convince me of this claim. (I don't like talking about people who aren't present, or, even worse, are quite possibly hypothetical.)

[Justice]

Also, how is original sin transmitted? Or is it that it is simultaneous: We are all Adams and Eves? Or is it that we all just happen to sin at some point in our lives, thus becoming a sinner, contingently? Perhaps it is heritable? Like DNA? Do we volunteer to share in the sins of our fathers and pass it on like an heirloom?

Adam and Eve were created in an immortal or perfect state. When they fell they became mortal. Therefore, all their children would be born mortal. This seems simple and logical at first thought, but it is deeply profound if given enough thought.

As I said, becoming mortal was part of God's plan for us. It allowed us to "become like Him" in "knowing good and evil."

After gaining this knowledge, we become agents unto ourselves to act according to that knowledge or conscience we have. This conscience comes to us becaue of our mortality. This is why we had to become mortal. It was the only way to get it.

In other words, being "separated from God" because of our 2 deaths (spiritual and temporal deaths) we could now freely act without eternal consequences. If we rebel against God in His presence then the death suffered is eternal. He created an earth with the conditions for a fall to a mortal state (or physical state). This physical death literally saves us from the eternal consequence ONLY BECAUSE there is a way to be redeemed when we commit sin while in the fallen condition.

Why would anyone on earth think it is injustice for god to punish rebellion? We may think a ruler himself is bad or unjust, but few would argue with the reasonableness of a ruler of punishing rebellion, don't you think? We rise up against a tyrant, but we can only expect that he will do whatever is in his power to put us down. Now, punishment of insurrection against a good leader must then be even more reasonable, except to the extent that a good leader knows when to punish and when to stay his hand against his subjects favoring other means.

Which is to say, I'm not sure I know where the author is coming from, but maybe I need more context.

I think those who feel they are under justice, or who are facing the demands of justice, look for any way to get out from under it. This could explain his comments. Alma is teaching Corianton the ONLY way to escape the demands of justice... repentance... Redeemer... mercy... the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

What does Christ do for our sin? I need a doctrinal lesson here.

On condition of repentance, Christ can answer the demands of justice for us.

He literally can save us from a just fate, that we brought on ourselves.

He can make it as if we never sinned.

I don't know how this is accomplished, I just know it can be.

[Justice]

A primary source would convince me of this claim. (I don't like talking about people who aren't present, or, even worse, are quite possibly hypothetical.)

I cheated. I was actually paraphrasing a scripture. Speaking of our day:

2 Nephi 28:

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

[mountthepavement]

Adam and Eve were created in an immortal or perfect state. When they fell they became mortal. Therefore, all their children would be born mortal. This seems simple and logical at first thought, but it is deeply profound if given enough thought.

Perhaps there is a physical correlate to this. Try looking up senescence on wikipedia or something to see what I'm getting at.

As I said, becoming mortal was part of God's plan for us. It allowed us to "become like Him" in "knowing good and evil."

After gaining this knowledge, we become agents unto ourselves to act according to that knowledge or conscience we have. This conscience comes to us becaue of our mortality. This is why we had to become mortal. It was the only way to get it.

It sounds like you mean mortality was the cause of these things, knowledge of good and evil, agency. I do not see the causal connection. Were they simply simultaneous? Or is perhaps the causal mechanism or details a mystery?

In other words, being "separated from God" because of our 2 deaths (spiritual and temporal deaths) we could now freely act without eternal consequences.

I disagree. This does not seem logical. Mortality itself is truly an eternal consequence, if there ever was one, as in, the wages of sin is death.

If we rebel against God in His presence then the death suffered is eternal. He created an earth with the conditions for a fall to a mortal state (or physical state). This physical death literally saves us from the eternal consequence ONLY BECAUSE there is a way to be redeemed when we commit sin while in the fallen condition.

I think those who feel they are under justice, or who are facing the demands of justice, look for any way to get out from under it. This could explain his comments. Alma is teaching Corianton the ONLY way to escape the demands of justice... repentance... Redeemer... mercy... the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where does the onus of salvation lie? With Jesus or with us? If it is us, and we are corrupt sinful beings, how can we ever expect to "pick ourselves up by our bootstraps?"

Thanks for the conversation here.

[mountthepavement]

On condition of repentance, Christ can answer the demands of justice for us.

He literally can save us from a just fate, that we brought on ourselves.

He can make it as if we never sinned.

I don't know how this is accomplished, I just know it can be.

Makes sense. Can you talk more about the condition of repentance though, and how we get from A to B, sin to repentance. What is the mechanism?

[mountthepavement]

I cheated. I was actually paraphrasing a scripture. Speaking of our day:

2 Nephi 28:

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Is Nephi then talking about "present company excluded" or is he recriminating us to our faces?

[Justice]

I disagree. This does not seem logical. Mortality itself is truly an eternal consequence, if there ever was one, as in, the wages of sin is death.

Yes, mortality was an eternal consequence, but as I said, one that we could somehow be redeemed of.

Where does the onus of salvation lie? With Jesus or with us? If it is us, and we are corrupt sinful beings, how can we ever expect to "pick ourselves up by our bootstraps?"

The fall was a permanent state. Man could not overcome either of the deaths on his own.

God knew this and this is why He provided a Savior. Mortality was part of His plan because it was a state man could be redeemed from. Only by sending a Redeemer could man be redeemed.

So, Christ is the "onus" of salvation.

But, if Christ could pass His atonement to man, asking nothing of the man in return, then all mankind would have salvation.

[Justice]

Is Nephi then talking about "present company excluded" or is he recriminating us to our faces?

Book of Mormon prophets saw us.

Mormon 8:

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

[Justice]

Makes sense. Can you talk more about the condition of repentance though, and how we get from A to B, sin to repentance. What is the mechanism?

That's going to be a very different discussion. I'd like to keep this one focused on the Fall. If you would like to discuss it just start a new thread and I'll join you there.