James Strang And False Prophets

[KosherXMorg]

James Strang's "Book of the Law of the Lord" has chaismus (sp?). Explain that.

[rameumptom]

How extensive are the chiasmus? Are they few and simple ones, or are they as complex as the one in Alma 36, with sub-levels throughout the chapter?

[Shaliach]

Ram...where was the priesthood before Joseph restored it? Nowhere. So by your own argument the Apostles could not have been legitimate since there were no successors to carry on after a time, but rather it had to be restored by Divine intervention.

The same could happen within the Strangites.

[rameumptom]

I agree that the priesthood authority could have been restored via an angel for the Strangites. But it hasn't. They are currently led by a high priest, who does not profess to be an apostle or prophet.

Joseph Smith emphasized continuing revelation through living prophets and apostles, and such a concept is in the minds of Strangites, as they continue to seek that revelation that restores their prophets and apostles. Until that time, they are no different than any other religion that does not have the full authority of God to guide their Church.

[Shaliach]

..a stirring in my spirit tells me that this very well could be about to happen for them, if they are open to receiving it as Joseph was open.

[rameumptom]

I think I'll happily stay with a succession that I know I can trust. As the early apostles chose Mattathias to replace Judas Iscariot, so today we have apostles that prayerfully choose, sustain and ordain new apostles and prophet (the chief apostle).

The Spirit has witnessed to me on many occasions that the First Presidency and 12 are men of God and are called of God as his chosen servants.

[Shaliach]

Actually, what you described is a system, not necessarily a succession. Succession is dependent on fidelity to the Apostolic doctrine as well as material succession. Material succession can be broken or can be passed to the unworthy since we never really know the interior of man, and can be just a process of the system.

Joseph demonstrated how the system is not necessary to the Restoration (though where it can be had it is a good thing), but fidelity is. In this the Strangites have demonstrated fidelity, though their material succession is in need of new life which can be bestowed by Heavenly Father.

[rameumptom]

I have shown a pattern that was used anciently and followed again in modern times. The Strangite "pattern" does not do anything, as it ended with its first prophet after Joseph Smith. There are too many holes, especially when Joseph stated that the keys and authorities were already restored to the earth and Church, to have to expect it would have to be sent again by an angel.

As for unworthiness, if we believe that God can see the insides of a person, and whether that person is worthy, THEN we can believe that fidelity to the apostolic doctrine of succession can work. And when you have 14 apostles praying over the successor, and all being led to appoint the same person through the Spirit, then you have a pattern of succession.

[Shaliach]

You said: I have shown a pattern that was used anciently and followed again in modern times.

To be historically accurate and honest, the Catholics can demonstrate a fidelity to the pattern of passing on material succession that they deem Apostolic too. If the ancien pattern in and of itself is sufficient, then we have a problem for Restoration theology.

You said: The Strangite "pattern" does not do anything, as it ended with its first prophet after Joseph Smith.

The "Jesus" pattern didn't do anything, as it ended with the death of the last Apostle.

See how silly that argument is?

You said: There are too many holes, especially when Joseph stated that the keys and authorities were already restored to the earth and Church, to have to expect it would have to be sent again by an angel.

Really? I'm sure the original Christians thought the same thing. After all, Jesus Himself established that succession.

You said: As for unworthiness, if we believe that God can see the insides of a person, and whether that person is worthy, THEN we can believe that fidelity to the apostolic doctrine of succession can work. And when you have 14 apostles praying over the successor, and all being led to appoint the same person through the Spirit, then you have a pattern of succession.

Okay, we have another problem for Restoration theology then. If indeed God knows the internal man (and I agree He does), then why would He not have made certain that the priesthood never needed restoration by making sure it was passed on throughout history to the present era? This sure would have saved alot of trouble and spared the lives of Joseph and Hyrum, not to mention the many who died going west. This notion of God is disturbing to me. I understand that you're trying to establish the primacy of the Utah LDS, but your assertions are creating more issues than they fix.

I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this with me. Your zeal is inspiring.

[rameumptom]

But the apostles DID attempt to continue the pattern, as when they called Mattathias to replace Judas. You're view on this is mistaken, as they continued the pattern as long as they could. That it later failed, due to distance and martyrdom, does not negate the fact that they followed it to fill their ranks in the Twelve.

OTOH, the Strangites show a pattern of Joseph Smith and James Strang receiving authority through angels, which dies with James Strang. Curious that their priesthood authority is still passed down for the lower priesthood offices, such as high priest, but that the calling of chief apostle and prophet had to be done via angel. It seems there are a couple of conflicting patterns going on here.

As for the papal succession, I agree that they can show a pattern. The issue comes down to whether it was a succession from the very beginning, not necessitating a restoration (and hence, making all protestant religions moot), OR that their succession view is flawed and there IS a need for the ancient pattern of restoration to occur via angels.

[Shaliach]

"You're view on this is mistaken, as they continued the pattern as long as they could. That it later failed, due to distance and martyrdom, does not negate the fact that they followed it to fill their ranks in the Twelve."

Actually, my view is that the pattern never failed. Material Apostolic Succession continues to this day in various denominations, Catholics and Anglicans among them. However, the spiritual component which is fidelity to Apostolic teaching did not continue. This is due to either passing on the succession to the unworthy and/or men falling prey to false teachings and additions/subtractions from the Gospel. Material authority is only one component of succession and not even the most important. However, both must be present for the fullness of the Gospel to be available.

"the Strangites show a pattern of Joseph Smith and James Strang receiving authority through angels, which dies with James Strang."

To be fair, the Utah LDS have a similar issue. Brigham Young taught at first that Joseph would have no successor. Nor did Joseph appoint one. For that matter, angels didn't appoint Young either. Many times Young denied being a prophet.

"Curious that their priesthood authority is still passed down for the lower priesthood offices, such as high priest, but that the calling of chief apostle and prophet had to be done via angel."

Where in any scripture does it state that the presence of a prophet is a must at all times? It doesn't say that in any scripture. What is necessary is Apostolic Succession. In this case the priesthood continues to operate and the sacrament, the central act of any believers spiritual life, continues to be offered. This is what matters most.

[rameumptom]

In the LDS Church, the prophet is the Chief Apostle and bottle washer, therefore my statement fits in with Apostolic succession.

Wilford Woodruff and Brigham Young, among other of the Twelve, stated that Joseph Smith had given them all the keys of the kingdom necessary to carry it forward after he was gone. He spent countless days over the last year of his life training the Twelve in the mysteries of the kingdom. I guess he forgot to mention to them in those many meetings that he was taking the keys back from them and giving them to a new guy in the Church, named Strang.

Brigham was right when he stated a new president/prophet wasn't necessary. Why? Because the 12 held and hold the same keys as the First Presidency. Only later, when the Lord commanded him to reorganize the First Presidency did he do so. But, you are wrong in stating Brigham said there would be no successor. The successor lay in the hands of the 12 apostles, all of whom claimed they held the keys of the kingdom as a quorum.

[Shaliach]

Nope. Not wrong. I just read the quote two nights ago from Brigham Young. I'll go back and get it for you and post it along with the reference. And you still haven't substantiated the claim that we must have a prophet at all times. I've seen no such official church teaching to that effect, though I may be wrong. If you can provide evidence to the contrary I would appreciate it. I'd hate to keep saying it if it were untrue. lol

By the way, I am LDS. For me these discussions are an exercise in theological discernment. I appreciate very much your continued discussions with me. You've been polite and you're informed, so its very interesting exchanging opinions with you. Thank you!

[rameumptom]

Wilford Woodruff explains it this way:

This is a portion of the remarks given by President Woodruff on 2 June 1889 at a YMMIA conference.

Before the close of this conference there is a subject upon which I wish to bear my testimony. … I am … the only one living in the flesh who was with … Joseph Smith, the Prophet of God, when he gave to the Twelve Apostles their charge concerning the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom of God; and as I myself shall soon pass away like other men, I want to leave my testimony to these Latter-day Saint.

News of the Martyrdom

I was sitting with Brigham Young in the depot in the city of Boston at the time when the two prophets [Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum] were martyred. Of course we had no telegraphs and no fast reports as we have today to give communication over the land. During that period Brother Young was waiting there for a train of cars to go to Peterborough. Whilst sitting there we were overshadowed by a cloud of darkness and gloom as great as I ever witnessed in my life. … Neither of us knew or understood the cause until after the report of the death of the prophets was manifested to us. Brother Brigham left; I remained in Boston, and the next day took passage for Fox Islands, a place I had visited some years before, and baptized numbers of people and organized branches upon both those islands. My father-in-law, Ezra Carter, carried me on a wagon from Scarborough to Portland. I there engaged passage on board of a steamer. I had put my trunk on board and was just bidding my father-in-law farewell, when a man came out from a shop—a shoemaker—holding a newspaper in his hand. He said, “Father Carter, Joseph and Hyrum Smith have been martyred—they have been murdered in Carthage Jail!”

As soon as I looked at the paper, the Spirit said to me that it was true. I had no time for consultation, the steamer’s bell was ringing, so I stepped on board and took my trunk back to land. As I drew it off, the plank was drawn in. I told Father Carter to drive me back to Scarborough. I there took the car for Boston. …

Next day I met Brigham Young in the streets of Boston, he having just returned, opposite to Sister Voce’s house. We reached out our hands, but neither of us was able to speak a word. We walked into Sister Voce’s house. We each took a seat and [covered] our faces. We were overwhelmed with grief and our faces were soon bathed in a flood of tears. … After we had done weeping we began to converse together concerning the death of the prophets. In the course of the conversation, he smote his hand upon his thigh and said, “Thank God, the keys of the kingdom are here.” …

The Last Meeting

All that President Young or myself or any member of the Quorum need have done in the matter was to have referred to the last instructions at the last meeting we had with the Prophet Joseph before starting on our mission. I have alluded to that meeting many times in my life.

The Prophet Joseph, I am now satisfied, had a thorough presentiment that that was the last meeting we would hold together here in the flesh. We had had our endowments; we had had all the blessings sealed upon our heads that were ever given to the apostles or prophets on the face of the earth. On that occasion the Prophet Joseph rose up and said to us: “Brethren, I have desired to live to see this temple built. I shall never live to see it, but you will. I have sealed upon your heads all the keys of the kingdom of God. I have sealed upon you every key, power, principle that the God of heaven has revealed to me. Now, no matter where I may go or what I may do, the kingdom rests upon you.”

Now, don’t you wonder why we, as Apostles, could not have understood that the prophet of God was going to be taken away from us? But we did not understand it. The Apostles in the days of Jesus Christ could not understand what the Savior meant when He told them, “I am going away; if I do not go away the Comforter will not come!” [see John 16:7]. Neither did we understand what Joseph meant. “But,” he said, after having done this, “ye Apostles of the Lamb of God, my brethren, upon your shoulders this kingdom rests; now you have got to round up your shoulders and bear off the kingdom.” And he also made this very strange remark: “If you do not do it you will be damned.”

I am the last man living who heard that declaration. He told the truth, too; for would not any of the men who have held the keys of the kingdom of God or an apostleship in this Church have been under condemnation and would not the wrath of God have rested upon them if they had deserted these principles or denied and turned from them and undertaken to serve themselves instead of the work of the Lord which was committed to their hands?

The Keys Are Here

When the Lord gave the keys of the kingdom of God, the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, of the apostleship, and sealed them upon the head of Joseph Smith, He sealed them upon his head to stay here upon the earth until the coming of the Son of Man. Well might Brigham Young say, “The keys of the kingdom of God are here.” They were with him to the day of his death. They then rested upon the head of another man—President John Taylor. He held those keys to the hour of his death. They then fell by turn, or in the providence of God, upon Wilford Woodruff.

I say to the Latter-day Saints the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. They may not rest upon my head but a short time, but they will then rest on the head of another Apostle, and another after him, and so continue until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven to “reward every man according to the deeds done in the body” [see History of the Church, 1:245]. …

We Are in the Hands of the Lord

… I say to all Israel at this day, I say to the whole world, that the God of Israel, who organized this Church and kingdom, never ordained any President or Presidency to lead it astray. Hear it, ye Israel, no man who has ever breathed the breath of life can hold these keys of the kingdom of God and lead the people astray. …

Let us make up our minds to serve and honor God. Do not have any fears concerning the kingdom; the Lord will lead that aright; and if Brother Woodruff or any of the Presidency of this Church should take any course to lead you astray, the Lord will remove us out of the way. We are in the hands of the Lord, and those keys will be held and taken care of by the God of Israel until He comes whose right it is to reign.

From the Wikipedia on Brigham Young, we read:

While in jail awaiting trial for treason charges, Joseph Smith, president of the church, was killed by an armed mob in 1844. Several claimants to the role of church President emerged during the succession crisis that ensued. Before a large meeting convened to discuss the succession in Nauvoo, Sidney Rigdon, the senior surviving member of the church's First Presidency, argued there could be no successor to the deceased prophet and that he should be made the "Protector" of the church.[5] Young opposed this reasoning and motion. Smith had earlier recorded a revelation which stated the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were "equal in authority and power" to the First Presidency,[6] so Young claimed that the leadership of the church fell to the Twelve Apostles.[7] Many of Young's followers would later reminisce that while Young spoke to the congregation, he looked or sounded similar to Joseph Smith, to which they attributed the power of God.[8] For many in attendance at this meeting, this occurrence was accepted as a sign Young was to lead the church as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Rigdon became the president of a separate church organization based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and other potential successors emerged to lead what became other denominations of the movement.

Obviously, Brigham Young did not think that Joseph had no successor, as Sidney Rigdon claimed.

Finally, a very good article at the blog Common Consent:

The previous decade, he (Brigham Young) had similarly preached (speaking of himself in the third-person):

A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? He professed to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ, called and sent of God to save Israel. If you know what the calling of an Apostle is, and if there were ten thousand of them on the earth at the same time, you must know that the words of an Apostle who magnifies his calling are the words of the Almighty to the people all the time… Joseph Smith was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator before he had power to build up the kingdom of God, or take the first step towards it. When did he obtain that power? Not until the angel had ordained him to be an Apostle.

From these quotes, I'd say the 12 were aware of their calling, the keys they held, etc. Brigham Young did know he held the keys of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator; though he may not have exercised them often in his life, as he did not receive a multitude of visions, as did Joseph (a very hard act to follow).