Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Evidence to you. As long as you are convinced, and happy, that should be enough for you.It'll have to be...
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Evidence enough to prove as fact.Yes, we know you have yourself convinced of that. B) Just not the rest of us. You wanted to agree to disagree, so try and let it go...
Dror Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 The Christian majority in this country would argue otherwise! The founders quotes I have provided, as well as quotes from our prophets, speak volumes and is irrefutable evidence that America is a Christian nation.Speaking as a member of the Christian majority in this country, I would have to disagree with you on this. Whatever any of the founders may have said as individuals, their collective work, and actual law of the land, the Constitution of the United States, says otherwise. The Constitution is a thoroughly secular document: it never mentions God, Jesus Christ, or Christianity, and certainly does not establish Christianity as the state religion. In fact, it specifically forbids it in Amendment I and Article VI. We are all familiar with the First Amendment, but here's the relevant text from Article 6:The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.Where the First Amendment allows citizens to practice or believe any religion they want (or not practice any), and forbids the government from interfering or from imposing a state-sponsored religion (not even Christianity!), Article 6 protects the rights of any citizen, even atheists, to hold any public office (even President!).You may quote individual founders, but where they stand on religion/state matters depends entirely on which founder you quote. They had wildly varying opinions on practically every topic under the sun, from religion, to slavery, to states' rights, to numbers of representatives, to their favorite dessert. The only way the Constitution ever got passed was through a great deal of compromise. To extrapolate "original intent" from the basis of what any one founder, or group of founders, believed or said is foolhardy and/or misleading. The only reliable evidence we have of the founders' intent for this nation is the work that they, as a group, collectively produced, namely the Constitution itself, as that is what they all agreed to sign.As the prophets have said, the Lord did indeed inspire the Constitution. That is, He inspired the founders who wrote the Constitution. He inspired them to humble themselves and work with each other in order to produce something they could all agree to. He inspired them to not only protect people's freedom of religion, but their freedom from being forced into someone else's religion. He inspired them to allow anyone who got elected, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, to hold public office (that is govern) in this country. He gave us freedom of religion so that, among other things, the Latter-day Saints would be able to worship freely and exist as a Church. I have a hard time believing that if some of those who are pushing the hardest for Christian dominance in government actually got their way, that they would leave the LDS Church alone.Let's not forget our own Mormon history. So-called "Christians" persecuted and eventually disincorporated our Church precisely because they thought our beliefs and practices were not Christian. (Yes, they had other reasons, too, but this proved a very convenient way to sway others to support them--it would be very convenient today, too.) Think about it--Christians actually used the government to persecute other Christians by accusing them of not being Christians... in America! How could we Latter-day Saints even contemplate running the risk of something like that happening again, to ourselves or to others, by supporting the notion that our government ought to be Christian? I would ask, Whose version of Christianity is the one that should rule America?No, until Jesus Himself comes to rule, I'll stick to a secular form of government, thank you very much.
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 America is 85-90% Christian...quite a majority rule!But quite a few of those people know that the US was not established as a Christian nation, so we won't try to make them back your opinion; that wouldn't be honest. And remember, quite a few of those 85-90% don't consider you Christian.
Guest Syble Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 What does it mean to be a Christian Nation? What does it mean to be a non-Christian Nation? We are what WE are and this is our Nation!!!!
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 What does it mean to be a Christian Nation? What does it mean to be a non-Christian Nation?We are what WE are and this is our Nation!!!!What about your Jewish neighbor? Or Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist? It's their country as much as it is yours. If anything, our behavior decides what kind of nation it is.I'd like to think we behave like a Christian nation; the point is that it wasn't set up to be such. The founding fathers set up the government to respect no religion over another, and made it clear that's how it was to be. It's a wonderful system. We've seen the dangers involved in giving one religion more consideration than others.Check out the topic on America...this is a Christian nation. Our prophets have stated such, as have our founding fathers.This is just becoming noise. We all know what your opinion is. Just get used to the fact that your opinions aren't automatically accepted as fact by others.
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 No, until Jesus Himself comes to rule, I'll stick to a secular form of government, thank you very much.I'll throw a big "AMEN' in on that one myself.
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Israel is a Jewish nation; the Middle East are Muslims; America is a Christian nation. No wonder our non-denominational Christian brothers think that Mormons are so weird, if some Mormons keep insisting that we're not a Christian nation! It has nothing to do with "Mormons;" anyone who's read the Constitution or the statements of its creators knows that. What might make them wonder is the people who try to reword the Constitution to say something that it does not. "And while the Gentiles established the Constitution, we [the elders of Israel] have a divine mandate to preserve it. But unfortunately today in this freedom struggle, many gentiles are showing greater wisdom in their generation than the children of light." - Ezra Taft BensonWhich says nothing about the Constitution being about Christianity."The prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church...if the Church should ever innaugurate a program [to save the Constitution], who do you think would be in the forefront to get it moving? It would not be those who were sitting on the sidelines prior to that time or those who were appeasing the enemy." - Ezra Taft BensonAgain, nothing there, either.Is doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that America is a Christian nation; read the words of the prophets...read the words of our founders. None of which says America was founded as such. We know about your opinion, but you don't seem to realize that's all it is.Of course, there will be those who quote atheistic arguments. And those who wrongly attempt to misconstrue the intentions of the founding fathers into theocratic sentiment. Again, you mistake history for "atheistic argument." Show us where anyone said God was not mentioned. Your hyperbole weakens an already dead argument.But I have quoted the prophets of God, and the founders themselves, who have established America as a Christian nation in preparation for the Lord's return.Not one of your quotes said so, or supported such a claim.Correction: Our founders set up this government without respect to any one Christian denomination over another. Another unfounded (and frankly bigoted) statement. You need to re-read the Jefferson quote above; quite a bit more than Christians are mentioned.You are not willing to view the subject reasonably. As before, your extremely contentious nature leads you to argue for the sake of argument and pronounce your opinions as fact. To be honest it makes you a most unpleasant poster. You can't stand to be contradicted or told when you are wrong.If you read the statements of the founding fathers and don't filter it through your own religious bias, you'll understand that they formed our Constitution to favor no religion over another, including Christianity. As they said themselves.
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 If there's one thing I've learned in this forum, Outshined, it's that you and your counterparts will disagree with everything I say. When you lose the argument, you resort to personal attacks. Shooting the messenger doesn't mean that my references/sources (prophets/founders, i.e., the facts) aren't legitimate...it simply means that you disagree with them! No, I have agreed with you on some subjects which youve overlooked, but on this I understand that you are wrong (I have no idea who "my counterparts" are). You could avoid a lot of problems by simply saying "I believe" or "in my opinion" instead of trying to portray your opinions as some form of indisputed truth.I have "lost" nothing here; was it a contest? I gave you facts and quotes, and you pretended not to see. History and our Constitution are clear on this, and I won't lie to make you feel better. Christianity was given no special consideration.Your tactic seems to be to stick with a silly argument until everyone gets bored or exasperated and drops the topic, then claim you somehow "won."As I said, I believe you often argue just for the sake of arguing. That's unfortunate.
Jason Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Ari, Just because Ezra Taft Bensen says something, doesn't make it so. It's called an opinion. And not even Latter-day Saints are required to accept his opinion.
Sugarbay Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Ari, Just because Ezra Taft Bensen says something, doesn't make it so. It's called an opinion. And not even Latter-day Saints are required to accept his opinion.You need to remember this if you are going to be prophet...we belive that the prophet is a prophet and we have a tendency to believe what his opinion is because his opinion is inspired of God if not directly from him. But then, that is just my opinion. :)
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 The difference is that I quote legitimate sources (referencing the prophets/founders)...which is truth...as opposed to biased opinions based upon sources which are anti-Christian and anti-American.Sadly, none of your sources backed your claims. Yeah, I gave you a quote from Jefferson's autobiography . That's "anti-Christian and anti-American". Remember what I said about hyperbole?...
Outshined Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 And you still consider Thomas Jefferson's own autobiography to be "unreliable and questionable", as well as "anti-Christian and anti-American."Hysterical. I heed the prophets when they are not incorrectly quoted in support of silliness. I don't support your claims, of course, as they are wrong.
Jason Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 I consider that you pick and choose words from Jefferson to back up your false claim that America is not a Christian nation. You're the queen of "out of context" on this board Ari. Shooting the messenger (who has delivered the message in its entirety), serves no purpose.Only when she's misquoting on purpose to serve her ultra-conservative point of view.
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