Moroni 8:18?

[Justice]

It is entirely possible that there are several plans to godhood (hence the need for the council in premortal existence to choose our plan) some of these plans may not have a deceiver to rebel against it.

The Council's purpose was not to select a plan or any part of it. The purpose of the Council was to select a Redeemer to follow through with the Father's plan. That Father's plan was going to be used was never in doubt or question. Lucifer proposed a change to the plan, but the question was "Whom shall I send?" and not "Are there any ideas for a plan?"

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Without a deceiver that is like taking a multiple choice test with only one answer listed. Then there is no free agency and no accountability and no need for a Savior. That doesn't seem logical to me.

Not exactly, Adam and Eve always had there agency they were just innocent of the knowledge of good and evil until the partook of the fruit. We know that Lucifer is the deceiver in the garden but that doesn't guarantee that all situations require a deceiver.

Agency is agency and Satan is not part of our agency he hold no hold over us at all he only tempts us and we are never tempted beyond our ability to resist, Satan didn't make Adam and Eve transgress and start our eternal progression. Satan tempted Eve and she chose to transgress, Eve then told Adam and he chose to transgress.

This entire process is not dependent on a deceiver but choice. They could of decided on there own to of eaten the fruit just the deceiver always trying to frustrate God's plans tried to stop progression and actually was the catalyst for its creation in the world!

I still don't see how a deceiver is necessary though cause that would imply that God would have to make someone fall (meaning no choice for that person). If no one rebells in premortal existence there is no deceiver in that plan of salvation.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

The Council's purpose was not to select a plan or any part of it. The purpose of the Council was to select a Redeemer to follow through with the Father's plan. That Father's plan was going to be used was never in doubt or question. Lucifer proposed a change to the plan, but the question was "Whom shall I send?" and not "Are there any ideas for a plan?"

For this world and our Heavenly father I agree there was only one plan of salvation but what I am saying is on another world with another Heavenly Father there very well could be no rebellion against God in premortal existence meaning no deceiver unless that Heavenly Father forces someone to become a deceiver or makes a evil thing.

God will never force anything on anyone, nor will he ever create something evil. So while our plan was set in stone (since God knew that Lucifer would choose to rebel) other worlds plans of salvation my not be a carbon copy of ours.

Remember that agency existed in premortal life and will exist in the post mortal spirit world.

So to demand a deceiver for all worlds denies agency and frustrates the entire concept of eternal progression since we can only progress (or not progress) through our choice made by our free will!

[Justice]

For this world and our Heavenly father I agree there was only one plan of salvation but what I am saying is on another world with another Heavenly Father there very well could be no rebellion against God in premortal existence meaning no deceiver unless that Heavenly Father forces someone to become a deceiver or makes a evil thing.

I believe that we remain in heaven until there is opposition. That is how Father knows we are ready to move beyond that existence. If you read Alma 43 and 44 as a type or shadow of pre-earth life, especially the war in heaven, then that is what it says.

I believe man is saved in the exact same way all throughout eternity. A Savior is required. That is part of why we must choose CHrist as Savior and covenant to adhere, not just to Him and what He did for us, but to the eternal truth that it is the only way.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Justice

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I believe that we remain in heaven until there is opposition.

That is a good opinion and makes sense very much but my point is what happens when none choose to rebel against God?

The only way to guarantee rebellion is to remove agency since all things being equal it's is probable that no one chooses to rebel against God.

Now of course there is opposition there is always opposition there is no life without opposition light and darkness, heat and cold, ect.

What I am saying to assume someone must rebel us removing agency from the equation since someone has to rebel in order for things to be complete.

Since we know that agency is due to our spiritual nature as creatures of intelligence, we can only assume rebellion is a needed part of the various plans of happiness if we negate free will since an obvious choice is everyone could decide to follow God 100% in premortal life.

God made our plan cause he knew what Lucifer would do, being all knowing. But in a situation where no one chooses to rebel (which is small chance but in an infinite chain of Gods and spirit children it is guaranteed to happen at least once) That God would obviously have another plan to prove his children without a fallen spirit as the catalyst.

Now what that plan would be I don't know but rationally there cannot be one copy and paste model of salvation in my opinion.

I'm assuming that free will is the foundation of progress and if that is a case you can't require anything for each plan. Hence the need for a each group to have an all knowing god to guide each spiritual family to exaltation if they choose to follow that chosen plan.

I know you don't agree with me but does my position at least make sense to you?

[Justice]

Sure it does. But an eternity is a long time to have a lot of children... eventually there will be rebellion.

[Dravin]

But in a situation where no one chooses to rebel (which is small chance but in an infinite chain of Gods and spirit children it is guaranteed to happen at least once)

It is a logical fallacy that if there is a chance then given enough time it must happen. If I have a coin and flip it (so 50/50 chance*) an infinite number of times it is extremely likely that I will at some point get heads, however it is not guaranteed (aka 100% chance that I will).

Edit: I realize your argument is that it is so likely that you feel comfortable operating under the assumption that it did happen. I'm just being pedantic about the math. :)

* We have no clue on the odds of rebellion except in the large scheme of things it is non-zero as it has happened at least once out of an undefined number of times.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Justice]

Since, I'm assuming, all spirit children are not born at once, then some are older than others. I'm not sure what difference this makes, being they are born in eternity, but my point is there are always some "younger" than others. When can "all" the children be ready for progression? It seems logical to me (and fits Alma 43) that the children force a decision. God can then easily determine when they are ready. If they (we) had agency in the pre-mortal existence, then all you have to do is wait until they exercise it. Once there is rebellion, you have to make a choice, hence now you know who is ready.

Since we know there "has to be opposition," it seems plausible to wait until it exists. In eternity it will exist eventually. It just has to wait until there is "enough" opposition to force the issue.

Alma 43:

14 Now those descendants were as numerous, nearly, as were the Nephites; and thus the Nephites were obliged to contend with their brethren, even unto bloodshed.

This is the principle I'm speaking about. I believe Alma 43 and 44 form a type or shadow of what happened in the pre-mortal existence.

Some of the best chapters we have in the Book of Mormon are when Alma and his sons and friends go about preaching the word. Here they go out preaching again:

Alma 43:

1 And now it came to pass that the sons of Alma did go forth among the people, to declare the word unto them. And Alma, also, himself, could not arest, and he also went forth.

2 Now we shall say no more concerning their preaching, except that they preached the word, and the truth, according to the spirit of prophecy and revelation; and they preached after the holy order of God by which they were called.

3 And now I return to an account of the wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites, in the eighteenth year of the reign of the judges.

It's very interesting that Mormon would ignore their teachings and turn to an account of their wars.

Elder Bednar once said the wars in the Book of Mormon are not there to give us a body count or the amount of bloodshed, but that they taught us spiritual truths.

Read these 2 chapters very closely. There is very powerful symbolism.

In any case, I believe there will be opposition eventually.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Not exactly, Adam and Eve always had there agency they were just innocent of the knowledge of good and evil until the partook of the fruit. We know that Lucifer is the deceiver in the garden but that doesn't guarantee that all situations require a deceiver.

Agency is agency and Satan is not part of our agency he hold no hold over us at all he only tempts us and we are never tempted beyond our ability to resist, Satan didn't make Adam and Eve transgress and start our eternal progression. Satan tempted Eve and she chose to transgress, Eve then told Adam and he chose to transgress.

This entire process is not dependent on a deceiver but choice. They could of decided on there own to of eaten the fruit just the deceiver always trying to frustrate God's plans tried to stop progression and actually was the catalyst for its creation in the world!

I still don't see how a deceiver is necessary though cause that would imply that God would have to make someone fall (meaning no choice for that person). If no one rebells in premortal existence there is no deceiver in that plan of salvation.

The reason is simple. God did not give Adam and Eve that option, He forbade them to eat of the tree of knowledge (or tree of death, if you want to call it that). So there was no option for them to eat of that tree in their minds until the deceiver presented that as an option. Adam and Eve, both, would not spontaneously come up with a way to go against God's instruction in that setting.

This will be the same setting we will have after this life when we come unto His rest. We will rest from these options of choosing against the instructions of God. Otherwise there is no peace and no rest as promised if we constantly have to work to avoid making a mistake forever. The garden represents paradise. Your view of paradise is one that allows for the possibility of going against God without being deceived?

Was Eve beguiled by the serpent or not? "Beguile" meaning pulled away from the path that she was on by deceit, suggests that she was never on that pathway on her own. She was on a different path, one of obedience but she was beguiled, pulled away from the course she was on. If you don't believe she was beguiled then I don't know what to say about that, I suppose then you could believe that Satan was not necessary. That just doesn't register with what I believe happened in the Garden of Eden.

I agree that choice is key, but choice to go against God is made possible by the deceiver, the same deceiver that caused the battle in Heaven. If there is no deceiver there simply is no test of our faith, there is no probationary period to reveal our true character and to learn to live by faith. This is not one of the things that we could learn in the pre-earthly life, to live by faith. All those people in an imagined "non-deceiver existence" would never learn faith. So, you are discounting one of the most important lessons we have in this world, to live by faith and the value of faith in the world to come. God wants faithful members in His highest kingdom, not faithless members.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[JohnnyRudick]

I believe that we remain in heaven until there is opposition. That is how Father knows we are ready to move beyond that existence. If you read Alma 43 and 44 as a type or shadow of pre-earth life, especially the war in heaven, then that is what it says.

I believe man is saved in the exact same way all throughout eternity. A Savior is required. That is part of why we must choose CHrist as Savior and covenant to adhere, not just to Him and what He did for us, but to the eternal truth that it is the only way.

I agree.

The vary nature of "change" demands there be some type of opposing force.

Like "The desire and effort to empty my wallet without my consent."

Now that's "change you can bereave in."

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think the root of the opposition in the pre-mortal existence is the development of self centered drives. Lucifer, tasting some leadership in the pre-mortal life let it get to his head and started to develop some thoughts of prideful selfishness. I think once God sees that develop then it is time to present the plan. The one who's self centered drives outweigh their desire to serve God would present their own plan or follow one that requires less giving of oneself. There doesn't have to be any outward rebellion quite yet, just a sense that enough spirits are desiring to "do it on their own." Kind of like what happens to a lot of teenagers, who can't wait to go out on their own even though they are not mature enough to really do it. (I know, I've got one of my own)

Edited January 29, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I understand this completely, what I am saying though is that eventually by pure statistical necessity one of the infinite amount of worlds governed by a god in the cycle of eternal progression will hit this dilemma of no spirit child choosing to rebel.

So there has to be an alternate way to oppose this group without a fallen spirit. If there isn't that means that this dilemma can only be solved by removing agency which makes God "make evil".

I am not doubting that many if not most will have a deceiver, but to say that someone has to rebel and become a deceiver implies that we do not have a choice in certain situations.

If there is ever a situation where free will is removed eternal progression ceases to exist.

Plus there is always more that one answer to a given question, I think ours is one means to eternal progression but I cannot accept that it is the only way to eternal progression.

Our plan of salvation is set in stone because of our situation, but we are but one of an infinite number of spirit children under an infinite number of gods.

I just can't comprehend one plan fitting them all, one plan never fits every situation every time.

Of course I totally admit that I could be wrong I am just thinking out loud here. I admit that your point has several merits and I believe mine has it merits as well!

Some day I hope we will meet on the other side of the veil as gods in Celestial Glory and get to know which is right when we have knowledge of all things!

God Bless brother!

[JohnnyRudick]

I understand this completely, what I am saying though is that eventually by pure statistical necessity one of the infinite amount of worlds governed by a god in the cycle of eternal progression will hit this dilemma of no spirit child choosing to rebel.

So there has to be an alternate way to oppose this group without a fallen spirit. If there isn't that means that this dilemma can only be solved by removing agency which makes God "make evil".

I am not doubting that many if not most will have a deceiver, but to say that someone has to rebel and become a deceiver implies that we do not have a choice in certain situations.

If there is ever a situation where free will is removed eternal progression ceases to exist.

. . .

Soooooooooooooooooooo, my children, if I do not remove certain choices from them because I do not believe at this time they are ready for those choices, then progression ceases to exist?

Maybe progression does exist but in the path I allow at this time.

Yes, even though I tell my 3 year old he cannot play in the street even to walk across to retrieve a ball . . . This does not stump growth but may even prolong it.

Later when other thought patterns emerge to my view I will allow not even retrieve the ball from across the street but may even ride their bikes in the street.

Does this pattern of thinking stretch back into the pre-existence?

I think so:cool:

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Soooooooooooooooooooo, my children, if I do not remove certain choices from them because I do not believe at this time they are ready for those choices, then progression ceases to exist?

In the sense of mortal parenting of course we have to restrict our children's choice at times but this is not mortal parenting this is Celestial parenting. Restricting choice removes progression altogether in a Celestial setting.

Mortal parenthood prepares us for being gods and parents of our own spirit children but in no way is mortal parenthood even close to the same thing as celestial parenting.

Remember mortal children have a veil of forgetfulness, spirits do not have a veil they are not infants but fully adult spiritual children. If the Celestial Kingdom is filled with an endless supply of spirit infants my head just might explode! LOL

[JohnnyRudick]

In the sense of mortal parenting of course we have to restrict our children's choice at times but this is not mortal parenting this is Celestial parenting. Restricting choice removes progression altogether in a Celestial setting.

Mortal parenthood prepares us for being gods and parents of our own spirit children but in no way is mortal parenthood even close to the same thing as celestial parenting.

Remember mortal children have a veil of forgetfulness, spirits do not have a veil they are not infants but fully adult spiritual children. If the Celestial Kingdom is filled with an endless supply of spirit infants my head just might explode! LOL

So what we learn here in our mortal parenting is to as we organize the intelligences under our House we organize them by allowing every move in any direction without any restrictions other then great advice and example.

Those who make it to the point where they can understand our example then it is all the better for them.

We learn here by our experience that guidence is not to make a path or even to lead the way on a path but to allow our young to blaze their own path where ever it may lead them.

Got it.

Or did I miss something?

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

We learn here by our experience that guidence is not to make a path or even to lead the way on a path but to allow our young to blaze their own path where ever it may lead them.

A spiritual child is not the same a mortal child, a mortal child is born into a state on innocence. A spiritual child is a creation of intelligence, it has agency from the very beginning unlike a mortal child which has no agency (since until once is accountable they really are not making a choice) until the age of accountability.

Mortal parenthood will never teach us everything we need to know to be spiritual parents. The whole concept of eternal progression involves additional learning and experience in the post mortal spirit world, mortal existence is only the tip of the iceberg of out progression.

To compare mortal parenthood to spiritual parenthood disregards the need for more progression after we pass through the veil!

I am sorry but your position is not very solid, comparing mortal parenthood to immortal parenthood is like comparing apples and oranges.

[JohnnyRudick]

A spiritual child is not the same a mortal child, a mortal child is born into a state on innocence. A spiritual child is a creation of intelligence, it has agency from the very beginning unlike a mortal child which has no agency (since until once is accountable they really are not making a choice) until the age of accountability.

Mortal parenthood will never teach us everything we need to know to be spiritual parents. The whole concept of eternal progression involves additional learning and experience in the post mortal spirit world, mortal existence is only the tip of the iceberg of out progression.

To compare mortal parenthood to spiritual parenthood disregards the need for more progression after we pass through the veil!

I am sorry but your position is not very solid, comparing mortal parenthood to immortal parenthood is like comparing apples and oranges.

This life (as I understands it) is partly to serve as a Schoolmaster for the next step in our progression.

Raising children and learning about raising children as we gather information through trial and error over the millinneia is part of that experience I have been led to believe.

But I am not trough learning yet:rolleyes:

Let me get this right.

God took away a child's agency until he/she is eight years old because

they are not as bright as when they were gathered as intelligences.

Wait, He did not take away any agency as the agency is held in reserve

by the parents until the child is 8?

No the parent does not hold the agency of the child as the child does not

have any to start with until the child is 8.

I could take a few more stabs at it but I will let you pick the right one for me

or you can try again to help me see the correct one of your authorship.:)

Oh, by the way.

I do believe with you that a child is not held accountable till around that age.

Not that a child has no agency but that the child is not yet experienced in

it's new environment to make a wise enough choice just that the newly

organized intelligences have not enough experience in their new situation.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Agency does not exist without accountability hence children are incapable of having agency until they can be held accountable for there actions.

There agency isn't taken away (really didn't use the right wording there) but one is not about to make a choice if one cannot be held accountable for that choice.

You see the same though process in courtrooms if you are unable to understand what you are doing you never chose to do something in the first place.

I hope this clears up my earlier word blunders on agency!

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

What I am ultimately trying to get at in all this is that there is no progression for any of us if a single spirit loses it agency.

So the concept of a "required" deceiver presents the moral and logical quagmire of what if no one wants to disobey in premortal life.

To me is seems that each cycle would have it's own considerations that effect it's individual plan of happiness.

No two plans can be the same cause no two cycles can be the same.

The thought of a one size fits all plan rejects the individual circumstances of each cycle.

Of course there has to be a plan to progress through choice between right and wrong, but outside this parameter each plan can and could be significantly different for the next in my opinion.

I don't know if anyone else shares this belief with me, but if the eternal cycle of progression is nothing more than a cut and paste plan we all got to follow eternity is going to be really boring if you ask me!

[Dravin]

I understand this completely, what I am saying though is that eventually by pure statistical necessity one of the infinite amount of worlds governed by a god in the cycle of eternal progression will hit this dilemma of no spirit child choosing to rebel.

There is no such pure statistical necessity.

Once again a coin flipping example. The chances of not getting heads can be modelled by f(x)= 2^-X; X >= 0. X of course being the number of times you flip the coin.

So if you flip no times (x = 0) you have 100% chance of not getting heads (because if you don't flip you don't get a result, heads or tails). Now you flip once, you have a .5 chance of not getting heads. Now no mater what number you plug into it the result will never be zero, you have an asymptote at y=0, y will get closer to zero as X increases but it will never be zero.

[JohnnyRudick]

What I am ultimately trying to get at in all this is that there is no progression for any of us if a single spirit loses it agency.

So the concept of a "required" deceiver presents the moral and logical quagmire of what if no one wants to disobey in premortal life.

To me is seems that each cycle would have it's own considerations that effect it's individual plan of happiness.

No two plans can be the same cause no two cycles can be the same.

The thought of a one size fits all plan rejects the individual circumstances of each cycle.

Of course there has to be a plan to progress through choice between right and wrong, but outside this parameter each plan can and could be significantly different for the next in my opinion.

I don't know if anyone else shares this belief with me, but if the eternal cycle of progression is nothing more than a cut and paste plan we all got to follow eternity is going to be really boring if you ask me!

I tend to agree with you on that even though our wording my be slightly different but in the end it works out the same.

I just do not believe that H evenly parents present plans to their children until they believe they are ready to act on those plans.

That is all I have been trying to say here.

[Justice]

I think the mortal world is a schoolmaster for the immortal. I think we're learning more here than we know. It certainly isn't all we need to know, but we're learning a great deal.

I think it will be like in the Karate Kid movies when the master teaches the student kung-fu by ordinary chores and tasks. Before the student knows it, he's learned the basics of karate.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I tend to agree with you on that even though our wording my be slightly different but in the end it works out the same.

I just do not believe that H evenly parents present plans to their children until they believe they are ready to act on those plans.

That is all I have been trying to say here.

I understand that completely and I am not trying to seem like my way is better or makes more sense then yours.

I acknowledge that that my belief is complete theory and if we are ever revealed the answer to this question and it isn't what I thought it would be then I will admit I was a silly fool to not understand and embrace the reveled knowledge. I assume this will have to be decided on the other side of the veil where we can ponder such spiritual matters without the distractions of the worldly temptations.

[JohnnyRudick]

I understand that completely and I am not trying to seem like my way is better or makes more sense then yours.

I acknowledge that that my belief is complete theory and if we are ever revealed the answer to this question and it isn't what I thought it would be then I will admit I was a silly fool to not understand and embrace the reveled knowledge. I assume this will have to be decided on the other side of the veil where we can ponder such spiritual matters without the distractions of the worldly temptations.

Now ain't that the truth:p

Yup^_^

[Seminarysnoozer]

In the sense of mortal parenting of course we have to restrict our children's choice at times but this is not mortal parenting this is Celestial parenting. Restricting choice removes progression altogether in a Celestial setting.

Mortal parenthood prepares us for being gods and parents of our own spirit children but in no way is mortal parenthood even close to the same thing as celestial parenting.

Remember mortal children have a veil of forgetfulness, spirits do not have a veil they are not infants but fully adult spiritual children. If the Celestial Kingdom is filled with an endless supply of spirit infants my head just might explode! LOL

Those spirit children though are immature. They have to have the opportunity to experience opposition which is different than a test of whether the spirit is valiant or not.

This is kind of like the difference between looking at students during class time, which ones are studying the hardest and putting a good effort in their studies versus taking the final exam. During the exam, all the books are shut, there is no talking, the chalk board is erased etc. The exam situation is a different test of "agency" then the pre-mortal test of valiancy.

Or, another example, would be the difference between learning how to drive a car and the rules of driving through books and listening to someone talk about driving versus actually getting in the car and driving.

There is an immaturity that relates to innocence about accountability. Satan's problem was that he thought the "book learning" was sufficient. Why "hop in the car" and drive, hands on learning, when there is danger that one could crash the car? That was his argument, so to speak. But it comes from immaturity, and a third of the host of heaven were immature in that respect. They didn't understand the value of actually taking the "hands on" test.

The whole, "many are called but few are chosen" tells me that there can be a difference in what our pre-mortal existence suggests we are capable of but when we get put in the actual situation we reveal whether we really are capable of meeting what we are called to do.

This is similar to my straight A teenage daughter who thinks that she is capable of living on her own, providing for herself and thinks that she is smarter than her parents. This comes from prideful, self centered thinking which can eventually lead to rebellion if not redirected. Don't forget that Satan was successful in the pre-mortal existence in terms of being a "good student", "top of the class" spirit.