Baptism For The Dead

[jlf9999]

This question is just for non-LDS readers.

How do you feel about the LDS practice of doing temple work for your dead ancestors? I ask because the people for whom we perform these ordinances have non-LDS relatives too.

(Sometimes in the past non-relatives names were submitted but that is not the accepted practice. If it is done currently it is not in keeping with the disclaimer submitters must acknowledge before they can submit a name. The rules have tightened up from what they were before.)

Edited April 8, 2011 by jlf9999

[twinbrother]

I am a bit weary of this practice. Being that it's up to us to have a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father, and to have Faith in Jesus Christ as our savior, I believe that there is no way we are able to baptize another person after they have passed away. I believe that our loving Heavenly Father will judge accordingly, and to me when he calls upon His saints, He's the only one that judges each and everyone of His children!!!! It's not like you are able to reverse the earthly process of baptism in order to save one's soul. Once we have passed, He's the final Judge!!!!

[jlf9999]

I am a bit weary of this practice. Being that it's up to us to have a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father, and to have Faith in Jesus Christ as our savior, I believe that there is no way we are able to baptize another person after they have passed away. I believe that our loving Heavenly Father will judge accordingly, and to me when he calls upon His saints, He's the only one that judges each and everyone of His children!!!! It's not like you are able to reverse the earthly process of baptism in order to save one's soul. Once we have passed, He's the final Judge!!!!

The question is really what non-LDS think about the practice as it relates to ancestors they share with LDS people. I accept that you think it is meaningless. But how would you receive notice that the temple work for a common relative had been done or was being proposed? Would you just accept it as a courtesy to your LDS cousin or would there be a fight in the family? Also, given you think it is meaningless, why would you object assuming you would?

I ask this question because I spend a lot of time doing this kind of work and don't want unnecessary strains with others not of my faith. The Church has rules for such things but some people are so hateful it would not make much difference what a Mormon does, they would object. I just want to get a feel for what most people think.

Edited April 9, 2011 by jlf9999
clarity

[twinbrother]

I wouldn't accept it as a courtesy. I use the Word as my guidance, and will allow our Heavenly Father judge me, period. We all have to face judgment on our own, and I will accept my judgment because I choose not to accept the Book of Mormon as a Gospel. I live for my Father above and will have no issues accepting His judgment. I believe that ever since I have consciously given Him all of me, read His Word daily, pray with an earnest heart daily, and do my best to love my neighbor as He loves us, I am drawing closer to Him each and every day, and I will be ready for Him when ever that times comes!!!!

[RipplecutBuddha]

Sometimes the reaction comes from a mild misunderstanding of what we believe we are doing through proxy work in the temple. Here are some of them;

-we baptize dead people

-we count temple baptisms in our membership count

-we force the spirits of the dead to accept the baptism

Allow me to clear these up at least. When a proxy baptism is performed, someone else is standing in a baptismal font in the temple. The only presence of the deceased is their name, and we believe their spirit may be present as well.

Proxy baptisms cannot be included in our membership counts because the person has passed on. All deceased members are taken off of the annual count, just like any other census would be handled.

Finally, when we do perform a proxy baptism, we believe that the individual in the spirit world is then given the option of either accepting it or rejecting it. We believe that our intelligences exist in the afterlife as we were in this life. We will still retain our identity, thoughts, preferences, etc. that we have developed in this life.

Thus if someone were to pass through death that was strongly opposed to the LDS church, then when their proxy baptism is performed, chances are they would reject it. Through temple work, we are only offering them the option to decide for themselves.

I hope this helps clear things up at least a little bit.

[madeleine1]

It is more disturbing to me the stories of spirits appearing to people in Mormon temples. In that sense, yes, I'd wish you'd let the dead rest in peace.

Mormons seem to like visitations of spirits. I think if you seek after that sort of thing you are going to find it. So, the practice to me seems on the occult side of things, in the sense of trying to have a physical interaction with the dead. But I don't think it is anything that is going to be stopped, so it is what it is.

[Jason_J]

It is more disturbing to me the stories of spirits appearing to people in Mormon temples. In that sense, yes, I'd wish you'd let the dead rest in peace.

Mormons seem to like visitations of spirits.

I'm sorry, but this is very amusing to me coming from a member of a Church which seems to like apparitions of Mary and other deceased persons...or a Church which doesn't let the dead rest in peace when they are constantly petitioning them for their intercession. I hope you see how this can work both ways.

I think if you seek after that sort of thing you are going to find it.

We don't "seek" after having visitations of spirits. The stories you may have heard are of people doing the proxy work for the deceased, and having some sort of experience where their presence is felt, a voice, etc. They weren't seeking for this, it just happens.

So, the practice to me seems on the occult side of things, in the sense of trying to have a physical interaction with the dead.

See above. No one is trying to have a physical interaction with the dead. We are not trying to have any interaction with the dead (nor do we pray to/through them). Instead, we are offering these ordinances to them by proxy, and they have the opportunity to accept or reject them. If there is some sort of spiritual manifestation or experience that occurs, it is not because we sought for that to happen, as you are asserting.

[madeleine1]

The veil between life and death is made thin by Mormons in a purposeful manner, in practiced rites. No Catholic should ever do this. Such a practice is strongly denounced by the Catholic Church.

[Jason_J]

The veil between life and death is made thin by Mormons in a purposeful manner, in practiced rites. No Catholic should ever do this. Such a practice is strongly denounced by the Catholic Church.

It is no more "thin" than in the Catholic Church where you can actually speak to them through prayer, petition for their intercession, apparitions of Mary and other deceased persons, etc. Sorry, the same criticisms you are directing against the restored Church have been directed at the Catholic Church (I've seen these arguments against Catholics many times).

[madeleine1]

A google of lds.org and there are numerous teachings from Mormon leaders stating that the veil between the living and dead is thin in Mormon temples. If this is what people are taught, this is what they are going to anticipate.

Certainly Catholics believe that the Kingdom of God consists of the earthly and the heavenly. Jesus rules over one Kingdom, not two. This acknowledgement is the basis for our prayers to the Saints. Saints hear our prayers by the grace of God, not by making the veil between life and death thin.

If you believe prayers to the Saints makes the veil between life and death thin, this is your belief, but it is not Catholic in origin.

[jlf9999]

madeleine

Many churches look for connections to the dead. The Catholics are right at the top with all their saints who are supposed to intercede on someone's behalf. It seems that Christ is not good enough. So I hope you can see that Mormons look upon your complaints about what you think you understand in our temple worship as a bit disingenuous. The veil can be thin at times and not just for Mormons.

I could find many Catholic practices that seem un-Christian, at least to my eyes, but I recognize that is your business. Seeking to understand does not mean accepting. That is why I asked the original question. It has to do with understanding not accepting and wanting to connect with another person rather than disconnecting.

Edited April 15, 2011 by jlf9999

[madeleine1]

You asked what non-Mormons thought, but apparently, you didn't really want to know what is thought.

I base my conclusion on what I've read on Mormon sites, and what Mormons say. I'm sorry, but I see the occult in Mormonism, very clearly.

I'll leave it at that.

Peace.

[Jason_J]

Since I do not want to derail this thread further, this will be my last post on this issue.

A google of lds.org and there are numerous teachings from Mormon leaders stating that the veil between the living and dead is thin in Mormon temples. If this is what people are taught, this is what they are going to anticipate.

Obviously there is a difference between the veil being thin in the temple and us making the veil thin, which is what you asserted. Clearly we are not teaching what you said.

Certainly Catholics believe that the Kingdom of God consists of the earthly and the heavenly. Jesus rules over one Kingdom, not two. This acknowledgement is the basis for our prayers to the Saints. Saints hear our prayers by the grace of God, not by making the veil between life and death thin.

I am well aware of the Catholic teaching, and I have not said that you are making the veil thin through your prayers to/through deceased persons. What I have said is that your criticism of LDS experiences with persons that have accepted proxy baptisms in our temples is misplaced. Firstly, we do not "seek" interactions with the deceased, nor is that the purpose of our proxy ordinances in our temples. If they happen, they happen, however that is not the purpose for our proxy temple rites.

Secondly, you said that we should let the dead rest in peace, which was amusing to me since the Catholic Church says that you can petition them for their prayers, and they can intercede on your behalf. Apparitions of Mary are also popular in the Catholic Church, among other apparitions, and Catholics "seem to like" these visitations (you had previously stated that Mormons "seem to like" the visitations of souls that accept proxy ordinances).

So, it is very amusing to me for someone to criticize LDS experiences by saying that we don't let the dead rest in peace and that we seem to like visitations of souls, when that person is the member of a church that claims that we can petition the deceased for their intercession, and a church where members seem to like apparitions of Mary and others.

If you believe prayers to the Saints makes the veil between life and death thin, this is your belief, but it is not Catholic in origin.

And again, I never said that prayers to deceased saints makes the veil thin. Please reread what I have actually written.

[Jason_J]

You asked what non-Mormons thought, but apparently, you didn't really want to know what is thought.

I base my conclusion on what I've read on Mormon sites, and what Mormons say. I'm sorry, but I see the occult in Mormonism, very clearly.

I'll leave it at that.

Peace.

And I base my conclusion on what I've read on Catholic sites, books, articles, attending a Catholic university, and most importantly, what I experienced as a very active Catholic for 23 years. So if you see occult in Mormonism for the reasons you listed, than the Catholic Church is also engaging in occult activities (which I obviously don't believe, but I am showing how your logic applies to your own church, and this is the very accusation I've seen lobbed against Catholicism by anti-Catholics multiple times).

Have a good day.

[madeleine1]

Jason_J---regarding letting the dead rest in peace...about every 3-6 months Mormon missionaries knock on my door, at which point, I politely say several times, "I'm not interested". They don't seem to be listening, since they keep talking to me like I said something other than "I'm not interested" and they keep showing up, again.

I've read that the same dead people are recycled over and over through Mormon temples. So I imagine that Mormons think that after I'm dead you can still keep coming around every 3-6 months.

I'm thinking the dead would like a rest from all this Mormon activity. I know the living would.

Peace.

[Jason_J]

Jason_J---regarding letting the dead rest in peace...about every 3-6 months Mormon missionaries knock on my door, at which point, I politely say several times, "I'm not interested". They don't seem to be listening, since they keep talking to me like I said something other than "I'm not interested" and they keep showing up, again.

I've read that the same dead people are recycled over and over through Mormon temples. So I imagine that Mormons think that after I'm dead you can still keep coming around every 3-6 months.

I'm thinking the dead would like a rest from all this Mormon activity. I know the living would.

Peace.

And I'm sure that the deceased would like a rest from all this petitioning for their intercession...see how this works?

Anyway, I've already showed how your arguments can apply against your own church (and have been applied by anti-Catholics for decades), so I'm done.

[madeleine1]

And I base my conclusion on what I've read on Catholic sites, books, articles, attending a Catholic university, and most importantly, what I experienced as a very active Catholic for 23 years. So if you see occult in Mormonism for the reasons you listed, than the Catholic Church is also engaging in occult activities (which I obviously don't believe, but I am showing how your logic applies to your own church, and this is the very accusation I've seen lobbed against Catholicism by anti-Catholics multiple times).

Have a good day.

Yes, I've read your litany of "Catholic credentials" before. You should realize that the moment you forsook Jesus Christ in the the Holy Eucharist, your "Catholic credentials" became meaningless. Especially falling for another Gospel, of which we are warned. In my eyes, you have been supremely deceived by another spirit. So much so that you cannot see the difference between truth and deception. Warping Catholic truth do defend what is false, is where you have gone.

That may seem harsh, but I don't think it does either of any good to pretend.

Peace.

[jlf9999]

You asked what non-Mormons thought, but apparently, you didn't really want to know what is thought.

I base my conclusion on what I've read on Mormon sites, and what Mormons say. I'm sorry, but I see the occult in Mormonism, very clearly.

I'll leave it at that.

Peace.

Madeleine

What I was asking for was how responders would react and what they would say to an LDS relative. In your case, if your LDS cousin calls you on the phone and wants some information about great aunt Sally so he could do temple work on her behalf you would tell him no. You would say it is because you think Mormonism is occult, evil and disturbs the dead. Is that correct? I do not want to put words in your mouth. I just want to get a feel for what others would say. I accept that you and others have no faith in the doctrine.

Edited April 15, 2011 by jlf9999

[madeleine1]

So if your LDS cousin calls you on the phone and wants some information about great aunt Sally so he could do temple work on her behalf you would tell him no. You would say it is because you think Mormonism is occult, evil and disturbs the dead. Is that correct?

I don't need a hypothetical. Mormons never leave my non-Mormon daughter alone. I have Mormon relatives whom I am sure would want to do dead work for her. If I were still around at that time, I'd be much more straightforward than what you have going here. It would be made very clear that this work would done over my dead body.

[madeleine1]

And I'm sure that the deceased would like a rest from all this petitioning for their intercession...see how this works?

Anyway, I've already showed how your arguments can apply against your own church (and have been applied by anti-Catholics for decades), so I'm done.

Jason-J, when I pray to a Saint they are CATHOLIC. I'm not praying to Joseph Smith asking him to forsake everything he believed in his life. That really, that was just a waste of time. Now that he is dead he should realize this and become Catholic, and it would be really cool if he could just pop into my bedroom wearing a rosary so I know that he heard me and accepted Catholic truth.

[jlf9999]

I don't need a hypothetical. Mormons never leave my non-Mormon daughter alone. I have Mormon relatives whom I am sure would want to do dead work for her. If I were still around at that time, I'd be much more straightforward than what you have going here. It would be made very clear that this work would done over my dead body.

You sound bitter. If so, why are you here talking with Mormons?

[Jason_J]

Yes, I've read your litany of "Catholic credentials" before. You should realize that the moment you forsook Jesus Christ in the the Holy Eucharist, your "Catholic credentials" became meaningless.

Unfortunately that is illogical and irrational. But I understand that you must say this since it's only "poorly catechized" people that leave the Catholic Church. Yes, I've heard this before, I used to be one of the people that said it. My "Catholic credentials" show that I am quite familiar with Catholic teaching (having studied it at the collegiate level as well), and was a Mormon critic just like you for years (anyone familiar with me on Mormondialogue.org will tell you this).

Especially falling for another Gospel, of which we are warned. In my eyes, you have been supremely deceived by another spirit. So much so that you cannot see the difference between truth and deception. Warping Catholic truth do defend what is false, is where you have gone.

Sorry, I have done no warping of Catholic teaching, and I understand that you must say what you said. In fact, I have repeatedly referenced the Catechism, official Vatican publications, and works by Catholic apologists on this website and others to show the bases for my arguments. But what we do see in this thread, as well as the other that I participated in with you, is that you continually misrepresent what I have actually said (for example, claiming that I said that Catholics believe that praying to/through saints 'makes' the veil thin, when anyone can read my posts in this thread and see I said no such thing) to defend your own beliefs.

That may seem harsh, but I don't think it does either of any good to pretend.

Peace.

It's okay, I know you must say that. I have the fulness of the Gospel now, and I am thankful for that.

[Jason_J]

Jason-J, when I pray to a Saint they are CATHOLIC. I'm not praying to Joseph Smith asking him to forsake everything he believed in his life. That really, that was just a waste of time. Now that he is dead he should realize this and become Catholic, and it would be really cool if he could just pop into my bedroom wearing a rosary so I know that he heard me and accepted Catholic truth.

That is irrelevant. The point is about letting the deceased rest. You criticize LDS practice for not letting the deceased rest. I showed that if this is your argument, then I can also say that Catholic practice does not let the deceased rest since they are constantly petitioning them. This is very simple.

Also, your caricature is amusing, since it is no different than when someone converts to the Catholic faith, they have to forsake the "false" beliefs they held previously.

The LDS practice of proxy baptism is no different than someone accepting or rejecting baptism in this life.

[madeleine1]

You sound bitter. If so, why are you here talking with Mormons?

I'm not bitter. I'm Catholic and stand up for what I believe. I don't believe I should stand by while Mormons make the veil thin in their temple rites so that they can do ineffective dead work for my daughter.

Mormon belief is very strange and I know a few members. I thought a Mormon forum would clear up what I see in real life. It hasn't. What I see is what I see and there is no explanation for it other than it is there.

Like telling people they are bitter when they don't agree with you. A very Mormon thing to do, that is, assign feelings to people. Feelings they don't have.

With that, and Holy Week coming, I think it is a good time to say farewell.

Peace.

[Guest]

Jason-J, when I pray to a Saint they are CATHOLIC. I'm not praying to Joseph Smith asking him to forsake everything he believed in his life. That really, that was just a waste of time. Now that he is dead he should realize this and become Catholic, and it would be really cool if he could just pop into my bedroom wearing a rosary so I know that he heard me and accepted Catholic truth.

And what would you do if Pope John Paull II popped into your bedroom with a Book of Mormon?