Afterlife and Millennium questions...

[maiku]

I'm not sure it's a collective imperative that all will be resurrected at the same time, even at the 'end' of the 2nd resurrection. That is what I am pretty sure is not in the scriptures. We all know that the resurrection occurs first, and then the FINAL judgement.

I'm not at all sure that everyone's FINAL judgement happens at the same time. I have searched and searched and never found scriptural justification as to that.

Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Resource Manual - Final Judgment and Intermediate Judgment

Your answer is in the first two sentences of this talk. There will be a Final Judgment and it hasn't happened yet.

The book of Revelation is pretty clear on this topic as well. Christ will come and purge the earth, He will reign for the millennium, THEN there will be a Final Judgment.

[Guest Sachi001]

I would say there is no support for such a statement in the scriptures. Unless you make it clear that the timing is open ended to an extreme degree.

"until a thousand years after -- or possibly a few million quadrillion billion eons after..."

HJ

Apparently you did not read the links provided.

Gospel Principles Chapter 45:

"At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will be set free for a short time. Some people will turn away from Heavenly Father. Satan will gather his armies, and Michael (Adam) will gather the hosts of heaven. In this great struggle, Satan and his followers will be cast out forever. The earth will be changed into a celestial kingdom. (See D&C 29:22–29; 88:17–20, 110–15.)

Supported with Doctrine References

Gospel Fundamentals Chapter 34

One Final Struggle Will Occur Near the End of the Millennium

" Revelation 20:7–15 (Satan and his followers will be defeated in the final war.)"

7And when the athousand years are expired, bSatan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, aGog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the adevil that deceived them was bcast into the lake of cfire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the aearth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no bplace for them.

12And I saw the adead, small and great, bstand before God; and the cbooks were opened: and another book was opened, which is the dbook of life: and the dead were ejudged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their fworks.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and adeath and bhell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And adeath and bhell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the csecond death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There you go scripture's included

[maiku]

FINALLY getting some help with this, thank you Sachi001 :)

[HiJolly]

Apparently you did not read the links provided.

Gospel Principles Chapter 45:

"At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will be set free for a short time. Some people will turn away from Heavenly Father. Satan will gather his armies, and Michael (Adam) will gather the hosts of heaven. In this great struggle, Satan and his followers will be cast out forever. The earth will be changed into a celestial kingdom. (See D&C 29:22–29; 88:17–20, 110–15.)

Supported with Doctrine References

Gospel Fundamentals Chapter 34

One Final Struggle Will Occur Near the End of the Millennium

" Revelation 20:7–15 (Satan and his followers will be defeated in the final war.)"

7And when the athousand years are expired, bSatan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, aGog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the adevil that deceived them was bcast into the lake of cfire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the aearth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no bplace for them.

12And I saw the adead, small and great, bstand before God; and the cbooks were opened: and another book was opened, which is the dbook of life: and the dead were ejudged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their fworks.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and adeath and bhell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And adeath and bhell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the csecond death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There you go scripture's included

So we have the sequence of events, but still no timeline. Ok.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm not sure it's a collective imperative that all will be resurrected at the same time, even at the 'end' of the 2nd resurrection. That is what I am pretty sure is not in the scriptures. We all know that the resurrection occurs first, and then the FINAL judgement.

I'm not at all sure that everyone's FINAL judgement happens at the same time. I have searched and searched and never found scriptural justification as to that.

What would be the purpose for waiting much longer after that point to make a Final judgement? What piece of information is missing to make that Final Judgment after the second resurrection?

I thought we were resurrected unto our Kingdom, which to me is the judgement. This is how I read D&C 88, specifically verses 15-22, " 20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified." In other words, at the point of resurrection, bodies that are sanctified and redeemed will be made for the purposes of the Celestial Kingdom activities and those that are assigned to other kingdoms will have other bodies. - verses 28-31. We will be quickened by the type of body that matches our assigned Kingdom. It seems to me that at the point of resurrection it will at least be obvious what kingdom we are going to.

Realize, of course, that the Final Judgment is not a time to dish out punishments but a time to assign and inherit a level of glory. Bodies are how we "inherit" things after it has been decided that we have earned that inheritance. The bestowing of that glory comes in the form of the resurrected body which is the soul of man and described in D&C 88 as quickened by a specific fullness of glory, either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial type quickening. To me that sounds like it happens all at once. If you think the "quickening" won't happen till later .... I don't see that in the scriptures either. Sounds like it is one in the same time frame.

[HiJolly]

What would be the purpose for waiting much longer after that point to make a Final judgement? What piece of information is missing to make that Final Judgment after the second resurrection?

Have you ever heard it said, that the question can be more meaningful than the answer? I can give answer to both questions, yet these answers would probably not suit you. Not because they are inadequate, but because they MUST be inadequate. All mysteries must be taught by the Holy Ghost, not by some old dude on the internet. But I will say this: Peruse and ponder section 138. Keep in mind that the CES is tasked with satisfying young, inquiring minds -- and therefore shies away from discussing the mysteries. The teaching of non-movement between the kingdoms is one of these "compromises".

I thought we were resurrected unto our Kingdom, which to me is the judgement. This is how I read D&C 88, specifically verses 15-22, " 20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified." In other words, at the point of resurrection, bodies that are sanctified and redeemed will be made for the purposes of the Celestial Kingdom activities and those that are assigned to other kingdoms will have other bodies. - verses 28-31. We will be quickened by the type of body that matches our assigned Kingdom. It seems to me that at the point of resurrection it will at least be obvious what kingdom we are going to.

Yes, I agree. But again, you cannot show me a scripture that definitively states when this shall occur except perhaps in some sequential sense, not including a given 'time'. This is because each judgement is personal. Very, very personal.

Realize, of course, that the Final Judgment is not a time to dish out punishments but a time to assign and inherit a level of glory. Bodies are how we "inherit" things after it has been decided that we have earned that inheritance. The bestowing of that glory comes in the form of the resurrected body which is the soul of man and described in D&C 88 as quickened by a specific fullness of glory, either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial type quickening. To me that sounds like it happens all at once. If you think the "quickening" won't happen till later .... I don't see that in the scriptures either. Sounds like it is one in the same time frame.

So even though we have a scripture that states that no 'work' can be performed after death, at the same time we have a scripture that says 'work' has been and is now being performed after death. It is the tension between these that teaches us if we are humble and if we seek.

"By proving contraries, truth is made manifest" -- Joseph Smith JR.

Every mystery involves paradox. Thus, they must be taught only by the Holy Spirit, and none else. Give it time.

HiJolly

Edited July 8, 2011 by HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

Have you ever heard it said, that the question can be more meaningful than the answer? I can give answer to both questions, yet these answers would probably not suit you. Not because they are inadequate, but because they MUST be inadequate. All mysteries must be taught by the Holy Ghost, not by some old dude on the internet. But I will say this: Peruse and ponder section 138. Keep in mind that the CES is tasked with satisfying young, inquiring minds -- and therefore shies away from discussing the mysteries. The teaching of non-movement between the kingdoms is one of these "compromises".

Yes, I agree. But again, you cannot show me a scripture that definitively states when this shall occur except perhaps in some sequential sense, not including a given 'time'. This is because each judgement is personal. Very, very personal.

So even though we have a scripture that states that no 'work' can be performed after death, at the same time we have a scripture that says 'work' has been and is now being performed after death. It is the tension between these that teaches us if we are humble and if we seek.

"By proving contraries, truth is made manifest" -- Joseph Smith JR.

Every mystery involves paradox. Thus, they must be taught only by the Holy Spirit, and none else. Give it time.

HiJolly

Thank you for your response.

I think having forks in the road is different than having traveled the road completely. This is the time where there are forks in the road, not after.

I think "work" after this life for individuals is in terms of satisfying the demands of proof in the law. I don't think the "work" is in terms of development or change (forks in the road). But, I realize this is just my opinion, likely based in the sense of urgency I have to do the right thing here while we "have a chance".

The gospel seems to suggest that this is the one-time probationary period. The probationary period has to include the choice between good and evil and not just a choice between being more or less valiant. When we die we enter into a restful state of not being buffeted by any external source of evil temptations. Therefore, after this life there is no more opportunity for change, but there could still be time for stating our choices that may have gone undeclared to that point for lack of opportunity. I don't think, though, after this life we can make one choice and then reverse the choice after we "think about it". Now is the time to reason, to ponder and to work out one's salvation in that sense. After this life, without external evil influences, if we are posed a question that we fully understand, I think we would answer the question the same way every time. There won't be another chance to change our opinion about something.

I think the degree to which one leans in one direction or the other, in terms of kingdom progression depends on how much one looks at this life as an opportunity to reveal our true natures (a test) versus an opportunity to grow. I guess I look at this life as more of a test than it is a class. Like taking a final exam in a college class, one would hope they go into it having learned all they could before undergoing the test but I suppose one could learn a little from the test itself. If one leans in the direction of this life being a class as opposed to a test then I could see how that person would feel like there should still be time to "figure out" the right answer later. I am also of the opinion that the "refiner's fire" does not change one's true nature, it makes a person more pure or consistent with their true nature. Without the misdirection that occurs in this life, everyone will be living their 'true nature' in the next life, it doesn't have to be discovered or worked out. When our true natures are revealed the glory assignment can take place. That doesn't mean the path for learning and growing is complete, it just means the person won't change direction because there is no fork in the road after that.

[HiJolly]

I enjoyed reading your response very much. I can see that you are right where you need to be. Thanks for your thoughts.

HiJolly