Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I think you are missing my point. God is a perfect and all powerful being. He also designed every detail of us. He is also trying to communicate his true nature to us. My contention was that He would have no trouble doing so if all those statements were correct. VisionOfLehi stated that forcing us to listen would violate our free agency, but then I revised my statements to include that many people are trying to communicate with God and have already decided to listen, so in no way would God be violating free agency by communicting clearly with them. If a perfect being designed a creature with the intent to communicate with it later, why would the message get so garbled as with the game you mentioned? I guess I would want to find out what those other people are doing, and then do the same thing they are doing.Do you have any children? I'm going somwhere with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I guess I would want to find out what those other people are doing, and then do the same thing they are doing.Do you have any children? I'm going somwhere with this.No, I don't have any kids, not planning on it for a few years at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 No, I don't have any kids, not planning on it for a few years at least. Okay, well, so much for that...I was gonna say, "Well, do you remember how you felt when you saw your son (or daughter) for the first time?"Most parents feel happiness ... joy ... ya know?So, let me think...When have you experienced something "joyful" or "peaceful" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Okay, well, so much for that...I was gonna say, "Well, do you remember how you felt when you saw your son (or daughter) for the first time?"Most parents feel happiness ... joy ... ya know?So, let me think...When have you experienced something "joyful" or "peaceful" ?I have experienced "joyful" and "peaceful" things many times, but I really don't attribute them to anything other than the biochemical response (as described in the OP) as a result of certain stimulus. I appreciate what you're trying to do for me, but I fear we are steering this thread off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisionOfLehi Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Back to that telephone game, as a side note. I played it at a Single's Ward about 6 weeks ago. One of the most convoluted changes was this: Start: Stegosauruses have walnut sized brains. Midway(where I sat): Santa slithers walnuts in his brains. End: Whispers are endless. ---- Anyway, DS. You've used the argument that some people are told "to kill in His name." Well, aside from Scriptural references, I doubt that's happened in about 2,000 years. I think it goes against God's principals. So, most likely, if people believe God told them to do that, they're not actually receiving a message from God. Perhaps another entity, but not Him. But the fact that they believe God DID tell them to say that may belie that they weren't actually in a state to receive God's message in the first place. I believe that when the Lord wants to make sure we hear Him, regardless of our state, He will use clearer ways. Joseph Smith's experiences with the angle that visited him 3 times, for instance. When the Father has literally spoken concerning His Son. Instances like that, there's no mistake. And in those instances, confusion WAS removed for those who listened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I have experienced "joyful" and "peaceful" things many times, but I really don't attribute them to anything other than the biochemical response (as described in the OP) as a result of certain stimulus. I appreciate what you're trying to do for me, but I fear we are steering this thread off topic. I tend to agree.My apologies to the original poster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Anyway, DS. You've used the argument that some people are told "to kill in His name." Well, aside from Scriptural references, I doubt that's happened in about 2,000 years. I think it goes against God's principals. So, most likely, if people believe God told them to do that, they're not actually receiving a message from God. Perhaps another entity, but not Him. But the fact that they believe God DID tell them to say that may belie that they weren't actually in a state to receive God's message in the first place.I used the argument that some people are "told to kill in His name" as an extreme example to demonstrate a point. Take for instance the terrorists who died in the attack on 9/11. They truly believed they were carrying out a Holy War on the nonbelievers and would be rewarded with many virgins in the afterlife. They believed it so deeply they died for it probably with no doubt in their mind. They thought they were doing God's work and I'm sure some of them even prayed about it. Why wouldn't God straighten them out and say "Hey stupid, you're going to Hell if you follow that path!" when they prayed about it? Obviously you can say that they are misguided and not following God's principles, but then again they can say the same thing about you. Who is to say either of you are right since you both obviously believe that way with unwavering faith?I believe that when the Lord wants to make sure we hear Him, regardless of our state, He will use clearer ways. Joseph Smith's experiences with the angle that visited him 3 times, for instance. When the Father has literally spoken concerning His Son.Instances like that, there's no mistake. And in those instances, confusion WAS removed for those who listened.What may or may not have happened to one person is beside the point. My contention is that there are honest, good people who are sincerely seeking God's wisdom, but he remains silent. I know this for a fact as I am one of them, and I can speculate that I am not the only person in this condition. I have also seen many good people seeking God find Him in other religions with absolute certainty that they have spoken to God and their church is true.So I ask again, why is it that a "perfect" being would use such an imperfect mechanism (feelings) to deliver His message to His own creation when they sincerely want to hear it? (free agency is not an issue when communicating to those trying to listen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 ............So I ask again, why is it that a "perfect" being would use such an imperfect mechanism (feelings) to deliver His message to His own creation when they sincerely want to hear it? (free agency is not an issue when communicating to those trying to listen) I see it as:PERFECT BEING + PERFECT "TRUTH DELIVERY" MECHANISM + IMPERFECT YOU OR MEnot:PERFECT BEING + IMPERFECT "TRUTH DELIVERY" MECHANISM + IMPERFECT YOU OR MEIf the delivery mechanism is imperfect, THEN I would say we are definitely all in trouble down here.That is my point. The delivery mechanism IS perfect!!!!I know your observations seem to point to it NOT being perfect, but I think there are valid alternative explanations for any scenario you can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisionOfLehi Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I don't call it "free" agency, just FYI. All religions have some of the Light. I know Heavenly Father WANTS us all to be in his flock (and, for me, that also means being LDS), but I also know that not everyone will do so in THIS life. So maybe they get called to other churches, and are good and righteous. They still live a good life, and Christ will Judge them based on that, and they STILL get the opportunity for proxy work to be done on them, and perhaps being a righteous non-member in this life prepares them for accepting the Fullness of the Gospel in the next. And I don't God communicates to us SOLELY with feelings. But I think that yes, He does, and it's not illogical, and a good deal of our answers come in impressions of emotion. I also think they come in impressions of thought, as well as clear thought, clear voice, visions, dreams, actual appearances of Heavenly Beings, and the voice of the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 I see it as:PERFECT BEING + PERFECT "TRUTH DELIVERY" MECHANISM + IMPERFECT YOU OR MEnot:PERFECT BEING + IMPERFECT "TRUTH DELIVERY" MECHANISM + IMPERFECT YOU OR MEIf the delivery mechanism is imperfect, THEN I would say we are definitely all in trouble down here.That is my point. The delivery mechanism IS perfect!!!!I know your observations seem to point to it NOT being perfect, but I think there are valid alternative explanations for any scenario you can think of.The mechanism can't be perfect if it doesn't work and I believe I've cited plenty of evidence that it doesn't work. Every bit of the system (including us) was designed by a perfect being, so why is there so much confusion over God's will in the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 The mechanism can't be perfect if it doesn't work and I believe I've cited plenty of evidence that it doesn't work. Every bit of the system (including us) was designed by a perfect being, so why is there so much confusion over God's will in the world? No, you've cited plenty of evidence that the imperfect part is US. That is all you have shown. But just because we are imperfect does not mean we are not able to receive God's truth. We're just not looking at it right YET.From where I stand, you cannot fault the delivery mechanism based upon behavior or even belief.It was known, and planned for, that some people would live their entire lives without hearing the Gospel in some form. For example, during the Apostasy. Those people will have a chance to hear the word of God.I must also point out that a full third of the hosts of heaven actively rebelled AGAINST God, while standing right in His presence. The "truth delivery mechanism" wasn't faulty then, and they still rebelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 The mechanism can't be perfect if it doesn't work and I believe I've cited plenty of evidence that it doesn't work. Every bit of the system (including us) was designed by a perfect being, so why is there so much confusion over God's will in the world? That was why Joseph went to woods to pray, because nobody agreed.The answer he received was between himself and God. One of his fruits is the Book of Mormon. I have followed the prescribed method of finding-out if the book is God's word, and I received the promised witness.That witness is mine, and it is independent of any other person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 No, you've cited plenty of evidence that the imperfect part is US. That is all you have shown. But just because we are imperfect does not mean we are not able to receive God's truth. We're just not looking at it right YET.From where I stand, you cannot fault the delivery mechanism based upon behavior or even belief.It was known, and planned for, that some people would live their entire lives without hearing the Gospel in some form. For example, during the Apostasy. Those people will have a chance to hear the word of God.I must also point out that a full third of the hosts of heaven actively rebelled AGAINST God, while standing right in His presence. The "truth delivery mechanism" wasn't faulty then, and they still rebelled.I'm not talking about willful rebellion or even imperfections in us. I'm talking about people honestly seeking God who either get nothing or a "wrong" message. Saying the mechanism is perfect but we are not makes no sense since both us and the mechanism were "designed" by a perfect being with the intent of being able to communicate with us. Since God is perfect and all-powerful and designed every part of this system, it can't be "our fault" as you suggest. This leads me to believe one of the following is true:1. God does not want to communicate with us.or2. God is not perfect and all-powerfulor3. God does not even exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 1. God does not want to communicate with us.I say He does.or2. God is not perfect and all-powerfulI say He is.or3. God does not even existI say He exists.The difference between us experiential.When the day comes that you are able to experience an answer from Him, then you'll understand why I am so adamant.I want to note that it takes daily effort to nourish my faith in God. It has a short shelf-life. :) Just because I have received answers from God and know that He exists (in every way possible short of having seen Him) does not mean that if I choose to neglect my prayer and scripture study that I could not begin to doubt and eventually lose faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisionOfLehi Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 1. God does not want to communicate with us.or 2. God is not perfect and all-powerfulor3. God does not even existAll-powerful and perfect are 2 separate qualities, to start. Being all-powerful means able to do all that can be done. It doesn't mean being able to make a triangle a circle and such.(Just to be clear)I don't believe, as tomk is saying, that the mechanism is perfect (any longer). As part of the Fall we became imperfect beings. That's why we have chemical imbalances. Why don't some people get answers? Why aren't all answers through the method I've mused on above? I don't know. It bears researching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Even God has to obey eternal law. He cannot save us against our will, or even make us obey His will!!!! But all things He can "lawfully" do to help us and better us, He does and is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalShadow Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 All-powerful and perfect are 2 separate qualities, to start. Being all-powerful means able to do all that can be done. It doesn't mean being able to make a triangle a circle and such.(Just to be clear)This is true, we can leave out the "all-powerful" from my argument if you like, it was only added for emphasis and does not really affect the conclusion.I don't believe, as tomk is saying, that the mechanism is perfect (any longer). As part of the Fall we became imperfect beings. That's why we have chemical imbalances.Weren't we always imperfect beings? Since a perfect being cannot do anything wrong (I believe that is the definition of perfect), if we were made as perfect beings, then either there would have been no fall or the fall would not be our fault, making the word "fall" being used to describe the event a bit of a misnomer.Why don't some people get answers? Why aren't all answers through the method I've mused on above? I don't know. It bears researching.I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tomk Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 "Perfection" can be obtained by combining God's power with ours. If God can supply "100" ("Infinity" for the sake of argument) and we can supply "1" then "100" + "1" is still "Infinity" or "Perfection" as far as Justice is concerned. That is why we "cleave unto Christ" and seek to be "Perfected in Him". We are saved based upon His merits, not ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisionOfLehi Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Ah, you're right. Instead of "became imperfect beings" make it "gained imperfect bodies" I was only thinking of the physical aspect at that time. Didn't cross my mind that I was referring to something else on accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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