ChicagoGuy

That's hardly accurate. Mainstream Christianity at first used amateur scribes (lots and lots of them) to maintain and transmit religious writings and then tons of "professional" scribes and copyists. Countless hours and years and more went into the effort. The Gnostics put some writings in jars and buried them. I have read/heard that it was the people who wrote ( pieced together ) The 4 gospels ( Mathew,Mark,Luke, John ) - went more for what everyone could agree upon rather than an accurate portrayal to the teachings of Christ. Actually that is one of the things that drew me to the BOM. Granted I have no clue really what the "gnostics" were - or if they were really Christians at all - But the fact they have something saved that predates when the Gospels were put together is pretty signifigant. To just dismiss it as rubbish because you think they were just some cave dwellers that put a few things they found in jars and buried them I think is foolish - but then again maybe they were.

Been wondering what the Church's official stance on this was. Some say it's the most authentic of the Gospels of Christ from that time and place ( ie. more autentic then the 4 gospels we have today in the New testament ), some say those are the actual words Christ spoke not a persons perspective on what Jesus said ( like the Gospels are said to be ) , then some say it's just Gnostic rabble not to be paid attention to ! Just wondering what the boards thought are on thsi and what the Church official stance is thanks

Yes...Bat is gone ! and I do miss snow and bat....I wonder if there will ever be a part 2 Hmmmmmm well you're the one that can make it happen

great responses so far thanks all !

maybe not then Last time i was here I know Bat was like a Mod or something -- that was pretty funny. and also shows how long it's been.

What are you talking about... I thought they had something really good going on. :) Sorry to say Bat has been banished..... funny how the last time I was here it was Snow that was banished and Bat was still here. Now I gues in a few years tables have reversed

Haven't been here in ages just trying to get caught up on things. They always made for some good clean ( most of the time clean anyway ) hilarity.

Hi all -- I have been on here off an on for like 4-5 years back during the Snow - Bat saga. LOL My story is like this I have been Mormon since 1994 ( practicing [if that's what it's called ] since 1999 ). Got married in SLC Temple in 00 - have two kids , go to church every Sunday with Family - even have a calling of some importance. Still after all these years it feels like i am living a lie or at least in a sense. Even though I seriously have doubts inregards to the Temple/DC/POG and JS in general -- I do appreciate and like the set up of the Church and I have always believed Mormons to be the most trustworthly , naturally kind and generous people I have ever known. I agree with many if not most ( even all ) of the teachings of the Church - Even Follow the WOW , LOC , prayer , etc. Fact is I am one of those people that actually REALLY WANT'S to believe in the church -- If I did it wouodmake my life so much easier with my family -- who for 7 years I have had to keep my true feelings toward the Church secret from. rust me I am not posting here to conflict other just looking for answers if anyone has them. I can't ask these questions of my Bishop ( His wife and Mine are best friends - and to be honest I just don't feel comfortable telling anyone in the church I talk to on a regular basis how I feel in fear being ostrisized or my wife finding out ). Finally before I go further -- I have read and re read the scriptures and prayed alot. My answers or i guess at least the ones I am looking for just aren't there. The only answer I seem to get is literally a feeling of : If it makes you happy and makes you a better person for it - what does correct or incorrect matter : I guess that answer should be somewhat comforting but to be honest I am so much of a perfectionist about things like this that the details bother me -- and over time it builds and builds. it's like an itch where I know if i leave it be and forget it everyhting will be fine. If I scratch it it will just grow and make things worse. Yet I always end up scratching :wall: My issues with the Church are signifigant. Please do not take offense I do not mean to offend anyone here - If i do in following statements/?'s I appologize in advance. A. Joseph Smith/Prophets -- Why Did his story of the first vision so dramatically change over his time ? Why would he translate Plates that were faked ( Kinderhook or whatever those plates were called ) ? Many reports of his being a con Artist in youth as a Treasure seeker ? Joseph Smith having a fondness for Wine even said to of drank wine the day he died , JS Running for president , becoming a Free Mason , Salamander letter ? and a few more. -- One thing I could over look , 2 things likley but all these things unless they really do have simple explanations - just don't add up to Credibility. B. Temple -- I love the temple and think they are great -- Just some of the ceremonies are Identical to ceremonies of Free Masonry - no coincidence that those ceremonies weren't added until JS became a Free Mason ? One of the biggest questions I have -- if this can't be disscussed here becasue you don't discuss temple things outside of it I uinderstand but it is a major barrier I have. The whole everyone gets the same Temple name for a certain day ? When I heard that it really effected me as it made when i got my endowment feel like a went through a factory and got my stamp rather then something special happened - It still was a great experience but it was cheapened by that at least with me. C. POGP - Okay this is something I just cannot get my head around. The facsimiles have been translated by several egyptologists and never has the translation ever been anything near what JS translated them as. I mean nothing was even close. I mean I can even look at and tell something was up with the JS translation there. It was translated many time and every time was found to be just some Egyptian fella's Burial rite. there are several other things but these are the one that pretty much give me the most issues. If anyone here has any real answers or just what they think about these things and back it up -- that would be really helpful. I know there are many very knolegable people on here that might have just that. thanks all ChicagoGuy NOTE: If this was posted on the wrong board MOD's please feel free to move it where it needs to be.

What is her take on the situation? Have you discussed it with her? thats not really an option for me

we were married in the temple already.

Joself Smith or the BOM ? Juts a question for the members here. I have come to the realization that the BOM and JS at least IMO are fraudulent. To me there is just too much evidence againt and the only things that support them seem at least to me like it's grasping at straws to try and explain somehting out the air. The argument - if somehting bears good fruit it's true doesn't hold water with me anymore as many things bear good fruit but that doesn't make all the churches true or mean any other church is false. What i can say is I very much agree with the LDS church structure and the morals that it stands behind -- though i from time to time struggle with a few. I greatly appreciate the fellowshipping and how the family is so much the focus of the church. Actually after I have thought about it for some time do not mind staying in the church even though i think the way I do. I will admit paying tithing will be a bit painfull now . Back to my question -- can you be LDS without believing in those 2 things ?

Not so. Have you been to a Mason ceremony? There are a few similarities, but no more than perhaps ten percent. This is a claim antis make much of, but it falls short under scrutiny, as much of this does. http://www.masonicinfo.com/mormons.htm Again, some Native Americans have some Asian DNA markers. The reports in the link I gave you show that it isn't quite so cut-and-dry as you're making it out to be. Tithe is a tenth. Your increase is the increase in your worth, as in income. Every church I've ever attended, LDS or Baptist, urges you to tithe on your income. This is not an LDS thing, it's in the Bible. This is a bit comical. "Celestial" pertains to Heaven; stars are in the heavens. The symbols in the Celestial room are stars. Sometimes it's in the eye of the beholder, I suppose, but stars are what they are. I presume you are referring to the Spaulding manuscript. The problem here is that his book in no way resembles the BOM; yes, I've read it. Critics claim there must be a second Spaulding manuscript somewhere, but it has never appeared. This has always been a bogus claim. Are we talking about the kinderhook plates? Read up on it by all means before you condemn JS. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/respons.../kinderhook.htm http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai026.html A lot of ground to cover on that subject; lets just say you shouldn't be so sure you know the story on the BOA. http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai125.html I have more after you finish that. With almost none of South American BOM-era sites examined yet, and most of what has been found a mystery to scientists, what makes you think they didn't? LINK Nope, that one keeps falling apart. http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/main.html I'm sorry, but it seems like the excuses go on and on and on. If I have answers available, so should you, which implies that you've looked harder for reasons not to believe. If you really want answers, they are available, and the "evidence" against the Church isn't nearly as solid as you seem to think it is. In Christ, -Outshined I appreictae the links but you left out the book that was written describing JS's 3 degree's of glory long before JS's ministry.

Amilia , straw -- i appreciate your sentiments. I have so many questions about the church that I don't think anyone in the church can really answer. From the 3 degrees of heaven being written about year before Joself Smith almost exactly as he describes them , The Temple ceremonies being almost identical to Free masonry , native Americans having asian DNA , Tithing being stressed so much by the church when in reality the only scripture that speaks on tithing speaks on tithing from your surplus not on income , Pentagrams in the Navoou Temple Clestial room , The story of Israelites coming to america being written about many years before Joself Smith by a person not far from where he grew up and many things in both books are identical , JS translating fake plates after being tricked by farmers , The Book of abraham scrolls being nothing more a burial rite in Egypt and not even close to the age of Abraham , The POGP facililies not even close to what thye description says it is , the fact there is NO physocal evidence that the Nephites/ lamanites ever existed -- you would think that 2 great civilations living here 2000 - 1700 years ago would have left something behind , Several animals mentioned in the BOM as being over on this continent were impossible as they never existed here , the reasons go on , on , on on on on, and on. Granted Catholism was founded by a Roman Emporeor not Peter and all other religions are based on catholism. I am not saying any other church is right only that I do not believe at all that the LDS can possible be true

First - I do believe in God but right now I am not sure I can call myself any religon. Though I do still consider myself christian in nature -- though I am still a emmber of the LDS church. On the DNA thing -- it was not done by poeple trying to discredit the church it was done by a LDS Bishop who was trying to do the opposite. Can you find reasons to not believe in any church - of course you can ! For me it just seems there is so many evident reasons that this entire church was founded upon fraudulent means. To Proud Duck - When I said premise i meant the Book of Morman and Joself Smith. The way I feel right now is that I just opened my eyes and seen things for how they really are and now wish i never opened my eyes at all.

Maybe there is one true church and maybe there isn't. If you look around and decide that another church than the LDS Church is the true church, by all means go to it. If you look around and decide that there isn't one true church, then you've got to sit down and do a nice, rational cost/benefit analysis. Obviously, if the Church's historical claims aren't true, then that's a great big mark in the debit column. You have to ask yourself (1) whether the goodness you find in the Church and its communities outweighs that debit, and (2) whether other churches or philosophies have any better "balance sheets" in that department. Sometimes I wonder if we aren't all doing a lot more grasping about in the shadows than any of us want to admit. IF you've found the Church to be an institution that teaches divine truths and produces kind and happy people, that's not peanuts. There is some intriguing evidence for the literal truth of the Church's teachings that Mormon apologists have developed. There's also some pretty strong evidence on the other side. For some people, none of this matters: they've received an unmistakeable spiritual witness that the Church is ultimately true, never mind the details. I'm not one of them, so my testimony of the Church has to be based on other things. I'm lucky enough to be married to a person with a similar outlook, so I'm afraid I don't have any practical advice to you on that particular area. Awesome response ! I remember reading a fe of your posts a few years ago !People that say they have a definite spiritual witness and feeling of the Churchs truth though. people have that with many mnay religions if they are all true there might be a little problem :) I wish my wife had more of the outlook in which you speak of. Yes I see the church as a place that produces some of the kindest people i have ever met and many of the principles I really believe in if not all of them. though when you believe the entire premise of the church to be a fraud it makes for just a little conflict