Vanhin
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Posts posted by Vanhin
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What is funny is the fact that LDS people do NOT believe they are the only people to be saved nor that the statement of 'only true and living Church' somehow implies that her members are the only subjects of the saving blood of Christ.
There will be many who are not called Mormon who will be exalted and many who were called Mormon who will not.
-a-train
Exactly. Peter, James, John, Moses, Nephi, and Moroni to name a few. None were called Mormons. And all the little children who died before the age of accountability throughout all the ages.
Not to mention countless others who will be saved into lesser degrees of glory because of the saving blood of Christ, and all those who are saved from physical death who ever were born into mortality because of the Atonement of Christ.
Regards,
Vanhin
Ps. The prophet Mormon, on the other hand, is a tricky one. Technically he was not a Mormon...
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I would add that another possible definition of intelligence is any matter (physical or spirit matter) that is organized to some level. Orson Pratt suggested that the light of Christ fills all of space and all things, giving all things organizational structure. So, an atom may be an intelligence that is organized through the light of Christ from electrons and protons, etc. This atom would have qualities and characteristics that another atom may or may not have (Oxygen versus Helium). For example, I can breathe oxygen atoms, but helium atoms will not sustain life.
Then, atoms can be organized into higher forms of intelligence. One oxygen and 2 hydrogen atoms are combined into water - retaining the original intelligence, but now having new capabilities.
With continued organization, higher forms of intelligence can be created, until we can form spirits that are capable of individual personality and thought process. Abraham 3 describes the spirits that surrounded God as "the intelligences that were organized." Now, we have gone through the next step of organization, by adding a physical body to the spirit. All in the course of creating a higher and more intelligent form that is capable of agency and worship of God.
There are things in nature that lend credibility to some of that tought. Like the pregnant mother who eats fruits, vegetables, and meats (all of which are from less intelligent life forms than the woman), yet those elements are in turn used to form the baby in the womb. And the vegetables that lift the elements from the soil to a higher plane of intelligence. But the matter itself was not created ex nihilo and has always existed in one form or another.
Vanhin
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You're absolutely right about D&C 131 and spirit being matter, I've quoted it to others many times. I've just never applied that to intelligences as spirit matter. Abraham also mentions the "Intelligences that were organized before the world was.." so definitely eternal I totally agree. As far as Satan working with my little theory, it is hard to reconcile. That's why it's an imperfect theory and not doctrine :) Anyway, like I said, how intelligences are organized and made into spirits is not something we need to know for our eternal salvation, so I'm not too worried about it. I really appreciate you indulging my little escapade into "I wonder" land
It was a pleasure. Thanks Puf.
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Officially I mean the 3rd, as you say, "spirit matter" although I have never heard that term before - apparently a failing on my part in my own attempts at pseudo-scholarship. However a theory I've concocted would go something along the lines of saying that 1 and 3 are the same. The idea being that "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth." and that as the glory of God increases through the obedience of his children (us) more Light and Truth is created (or organized?) into Intelligence(s) as spirit matter. This line of thinking occurred to me while I was reading D&C 93:36 which I quoted here. It's entirely theory, conjecture, and speculation (unless you want to call it personal revelation, which still makes it not applicable in a public venue) and whether true or not, it is most probably not at all pertinent to our eternal salvation. All things considered I probably shouldn't even mention it here - but I've been itching for an excuse to talk about it with other (pseudo)scholarly members of the church and see what others think...
Thanks for the reply. To be honest, I have thought that before as well (1 & 3 = same). I think that would be in harmony with the second half of D&C 93:29, which states:
...Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29)
And we know that physical matter is also eternal:33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:33)
But I really can't say for sure (about the 1&3 idea), since there are implications there that are hard to reconcile, such as the fact that Lucifer remains a spirit personage, and my understanding is that he is void of intelligence and light, and certainly truth.
The actual term "spirit matter" does not exist in scripture, but I'm pretty confident you have heard it put like this before: :)
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)
As a side note, there is no part of us that is not eternal, both spiritual and physical. Otherwise we would have an end, or our bodies would, since there would be a beginning...
Anyway, thanks for indulging me in this conversation.
Regards,
Vanhin
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While Joseph Smith did teach about the Father also having a Father, there is so little information on it, that we are not entirely certain what the exact teaching is on it. Some LDS do not believe that the Father was mortal, while most of us that study this stuff leave it until more revelation is given on it. The issue is, if it is okay for Jesus, as God, to come down to earth and be mortal, why should it be difficult to believe the Father did the same?
This is just for conversation's sake.
I agree with your assesment of the matter. We will have to wait until further light and knowledge is given to us about this before we can know for sure.
About the idea that Heavenly Father also had a father, and so forth: This is one of those doctrines that is partly based on things that early leaders of the Church (including Joseph Smith) may have said, and years of speculation on the part of members of the Church in general. It does seem to be at odds with the current message of the Standard Works, however.
The scriptures, and modern revelation, confirm that God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe (everything that exists), and that His Son, Jesus Christ, is His Only Begotten in the flesh, and the Redeemer of all mankind; and that the Son, is like unto God (Abr. 3:24), and was with him from the beginning. The scriptures also affirm that man was also with God in the beginning (D&C 93:29).
There is no talk in all of scripture of Heavenly Father's father or other Christs, or anything like that. In fact, just the opposite is evident. Even before the creation of this earth, and the earthly ministry and atonement of the Son of God upon this earth, God the Father has been bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. That means that the work of God, which is only brought to pass because of the infinite and eternal Atonement of Jesus Christ, which was only completed some 2000 years ago on our earth, was happnening infinitely before us. Lest anyone think that these things only pertain to our earth, and our "generation", to Moses, God revealed:
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. (Moses 1:33-35)
I think perhaps the promise in scripture, of eternal increase for those who are exalted, has led some to specualte that one day we will be the father and that we will have a son who would atone for the sins of the "world". This, of course, would mean that the Atonement of Jesus Christ, was neither infinite, eternal, nor was it the last sacrifice for sin. The scriptures of course reject this idea (Alma 34:10,14). About the hereafter for those who are exalted, the Lord revealed the following:
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. (D&C 132:31)
It is evident that we will continue, when exalted, and even beget spirit children. In that sense they are fathers; but those works are the continuation of the work of the Father "werein he glorifieth himself". A lot like we do now in mortality. We are aiding the Father and His Christ, in this work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39).
Mainly because the scriptures do not allow it, I personally don't subscribe to the notion that Father has a father. Though, I don't understand everything. I don't doubt that the Father had to experience mortality in order to gain his glorified body, because that is how we do it, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that He has ever been the Supreme Ruler of the universe. So, if he then did gain a glorified body, it was by and through the Atonement of his Son, the Redeemer of mankind, since it's plain from scripture, there is no other way.
Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter...
Regards,
Vanhin
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I agree. He is reading the Book of Mormon, but like most of us do, is looking for some outside information as well.
Sorry, I was just being a smart alec. But seriously...
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I didn't mean to imply that at all, you're absolutely right - although the use of the word "coeternal" I believe stems from those credes and not from scripture or doctrine... But Jesus is an eternal being. The same does not only apply to Jesus alone, but to EVERYONE - we are ALL eternal beings. As the D&C says, we were intelligences before we were created spiritually, and spiritually before we were created physically. As far as where intelligences come from - I have a few ideas I've thought of, but that's another discussion for another time, and it's mostly speculation anyway.
Hey Puf,
So far I have enjoyed reading your posts. I have one point to make concerning intelligences.
You wording (highlighted in bold, and included in context) can easily lead one to believe that there is an entity more basic that our spirit, which represents us as pre-spiritual beings, and that the Doctrine and Covenants supports this idea.
Now, there is a fine line here, and it may simply be a matter of understanding on my part or perhaps clarification on yours. So, feel free to expound on your thought, if the OP will allow it.
According to the Guide to the Scriptures, from the Internet Edition of LDS Scriptures, the word intelligence(s) has multiple meanings, but it lists the three that are related to your point. I quote from the GS:
"Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children." (GS, Intelligence)
So according to that brief summary and the supporting scriptures that follow, three of the meanings for intelligence in our scriptures are:
1. The light of truth, (or the light of Christ)
2. A spirit child of Heavenly Father
3. Spirit matter (which our spirit bodies and all things spiritual is made up of)
If you were simply referring to intelligence as spirit element, then I am in agreement with your understanding. If you meant a being, or entity, that is not spirit element or a spirit son or daughter of God but is called intelligence(s), then I disagree with you. :) This mainly because I do not find support for such a thing in scripture, or the official doctrine of the Church.
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Sincerely,
Vanhin
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I think the LDS edition of The Book of Mormon, might be a good read. The internet edition is really nice too. -> The Book of Mormon
Both are pretty "pro-LDS" and cover at great length its teachings, its history, etc... -
Elphaba,
The Church recognizes a distinction between Civil marriage (for time only, including temple marriage for time only), and Sealing (the marriage that is in effect in the life after this). A person's divorce (civil) proceedings must be final according to law, before he or she can remarry.
In order for a divorced (civil) woman to be sealed to another man, she must request a cancellation of her former sealing from the First Presidency of the Church. This she must do regardless of the deseased/living status of the former spouse.
A divorced (civil) man may only be sealed to another living woman if he receives a sealing clearance from the First Presidency.
In any case, the former sealing, is preserved (unless cancelled) so that the requirements of exaltation are met, and are only in effect in the life after this (when all this mayhap will be rectified). The former couple are not "man and wife" in this life according to either the Church or the law, and would violate the law of chastity should they have sexual relations during that time, for example.
Just a bit trivia.
Deseased couples who had divorced, may be sealed to one another by proxy, because that is usually the only way their children can be sealed to their parents. Like I said before, the final status of those who merit exaltation will be determined at a later time, and everything will be set straight, in these exceptional cases.
Also deseased women may be sealed by proxy to each of the men they were civilly married to during mortality, as long as she was not sealed to one of them while she was living. Again, who she will be sealed to in the end, will be hashed out at some later time, where she will, no doubt, have the most say so about with whom.
These sealings, are part of the new and everlasting covenant, and are the final ordinances of mortality. They are required for exaltation. Children are sealed to parents and parents to one another.
Many of Joseph Smith's early sealings, were performed with that understanding that they were in effect in the eternities only, and did not constitute "marriage" in the Civil sense. This understanding helps explain the peculiar practice of Joseph Smith being sealed to women who were already in a civil marriages to other men. There is no credible evidence that these marriages were ever "consummated". In a sense he was still trying to figure out the proper order of this new law, and was really just linking families to one another through the sealing power which he had. But that is another conversation altoghether.
Regards,
Vanhin
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I don't teach such a thing
I was saying that the above is a lie that satan would have us to believe. I think satan would want us to believe that we will be saved to the level of truth and righteousness each on embraces for him/herself. <<< It's false and yes therefore he would love if we believed it. One of satans goals is to get us to believe false teachings. So I'm sorry if I didn't make my thoughts clear. We are not saved by what we embrace we are saved by the blood of Jesus. I am not a teacher and I didn't teach, that satan teaches people to be righteous. I do think satan would teach someone that something is righteous when it really isn't however, but I wasn't even say that.
^^^^^^^^^^^^I didn't say this. I never said that it's ok to sin a little bit. But I do believe satan does tell people such lies. Sorry for the confusion.
Roger that! Point taken. Thank you for clarifying that.
Vanhin
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Catholicgirl.
Please remember that what your asking here and getting here is a thought and believe, only used by thelds church.
No one else subsribes to the belief of the total apostacy that the lds church puts forth. Nor does anyone belief in the thought that the keys were taken away by God -------except the lds chruch.
A question you may also ask is way is that? Why does 99% of the Christian world reject this mormon teaching?
And the answer would be... drumroll... APOSTASY!!!
Actually, all of this boils down to one question. Was Joseph Smith really a prophet of God, and did what he said actually happen?
You see, God the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith and told him that an apostasy had happened. We're not the ones saying this, God is. So, your challenge is to find out if God really appeared to Joseph Smith. If God did appear to Joseph Smith, and put all of this in motion, then wouldn't you like to know for sure, rather than just dismissing it wholesale?
There was an apostasy, and there was a restoration. Our message to the whole world, is that the heavens are open, and God has once again called a prophet, like He did anciently, and we are commanded to preapred the world for his second coming. We say to all, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Regards,
Vanhin
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But to get an answer to that question, she would have to ask the 99% of the Christian world. She was asking our opinion on our doctrine.
Exactly.
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Men and women must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to receive exaltation. (see GS, Exaltation)
Concerning those who did not enter into this covenant in this life, both male and female, but would have, had they had the chance, will have an opportunity to do so. Most of this kind of work will be performed during the Millenium. The same is true for those who died without having a chance for baptism (except little children). We have already begun the great work for the salvation of the dead in our temples.
Everyone will have a chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all it's ordinances of salvation. Some will not accept it, and will "...remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." (D&C 132:17)
Regards,
Vanhin
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Will Holly and all Christians be saved? I'm glad you believe they will be saved to the level of truth and righteousness each one embraces for him/herself. I don't believe this. I believe our righteousness and our works are nothing but filthy rags and to believe that someone could be saved to the level of truth and righteousness one can embrace for him/herself is nothing more then a lie satan would want us to believe. I have no righteousness none zilch nada.
Satan doesn't teach people that they must be righteous. I don't personally know anyone (besides you at this time) who teaches such a thing. Jesus Christ himself teaches that we must be righteous. It is something we do, in the process of the exercising true faith in the Savior and in His Atonement. Listen to the words of the Redeemer:
"19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:19-20)
With talk about different levels of "greatness" in the kingdom of heaven, it's pretty clear people will be rewarded for their level of righteousness, and further, they need to at least qualify above the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees to enter. Who teaches us to be righteous? Jesus Christ does!
"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. " (Matt. 5:46)
What Satan puts in the hearts of men, is similar to what you are saying:
"8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God." (2 Nephi 28:8)
Just saying...
Regards,
Vanhin
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Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.
Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.
Hi CatholicGirl,
The point you are making actually works in our favor. Let me briefly explain. I quote the passage you quote again, along with the next verse:
"18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 16:18-19)
Frist and foremost, these passages represent the passing of keys to Peter, the chief apostle, from one having authority (Jesus Christ). Keys of the priesthood are not tangible keys like the ones we use to start our car. They represent authority, or the right to direct the work of the priesthood and the Chruch, within certain juristictions. In Peter's case, it was the the whole Church. In LDS language, we would say that Peter was the President of the Church of Jesus Christ, due to this passing of priesthood authority (or keys). Consequently, the Apostles James, and his brother John, were the "counselors" in Peter's presidency (see Matt. 17:1, Matt. 26:37).
Included in these passages, as you pointed out, is also a word of prophecy concerning this authority given to Peter and about Peter himself: "...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ".
The words of the Savior indicate, that Peter's death was by crucifixion (John 21:18). So, we know, that the "rock" upon which the Church would be built, died, along with the other martyrs of the "foundation" spoken of in Ephesians, the "apostles and prophets" of the Twelve. When Peter and the other Apostles had died or been slain, it happened so fast that there was not a chance to pass the keys on to others. This, along with the general falling away from truth of the church members, brought about the Great Apostasy. There no longer was anyone left on the Earth, who held the keys which Peter took with him in death. This is the most significant reason the Church fell into apostasy.
So, does that make Jesus a liar? Did the gates of hell prevail? He is not, and they did not.
In these latter days, when the Gospel of Jesus Christ was being restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord sent messengers to restore the priesthood along with it's right to govern the affairs of the Church; in other words, the keys. You would be interested to know, that the three messengers sent to restore the priesthood and it's keys, were in fact the last people on Earth to ever hold them: The resurrected apostles Peter, James, and John. By revelation the Savior said to Joseph Smith:
"12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;" (D&C 27:12-13)
Turns out that the gates of hell did not prevail!! It was Peter, who was sent to restore the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom to Joseph Smith. I believe that the passages you quoted, speak deeply of a coming apostasy, and more importantly of the restoration.
Since the restoration, there have been apostles and prophets on the earth again. In an unbroken chain the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints collectively hold these keys, and each time a new prophet is called, the right to exercise these keys is conferred upon him. And the Prophet, the President of the Church, is the only one authorized to exercise all the keys and direct, by revelation, the kingdom of heaven on earth.
"19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" (Eph. 2:19-21)
Regards,
Vanhin
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The requirement for exaltation, is that one enter into the new and everlasting covenant with at least one wife; it's not about the quantity of wives. However, make no mistake about it, plurality of wives, is an eternal principle of the new and everlasting covenant. I quote from the current LDS edition of the Doctrine and Covenants:
"61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." (D&C 132:61-63)
The simple fact is that we are not authorized to practice plural marriage in mortality at this point in time, because the prophet of God, who has the keys to this principle of the priesthood, has prohibited it's practice. As Official Declaration 1 states, the prohibition was brought to pass mainly because:
"...laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort".
President Woodruff wrote:
"I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . ." (See Official Declaration 1)
At this point in time I would like to also point out, that we are prohibited from practicing this principle in mortality by default! Whenever the law is authorized, it is exceptional. The prophet Jacob, from the Book of Mormon, taught:
"27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." (Jacob 2:27-30)
Should the Lord once again command us to practice plural marriage here in mortality? That I do not know. But no matter what, I intend to follow the commandments of God as he gives them to his his authorized servant, the living prophet.
Regards,
Vanhin
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Our knowledge of the Great Apostasy, is directly tied to Joseph Smith and the First Vision. There is, of course, ample historical evidence to support our claim that there was a general falling away from the truth. At the same time, it's quite understandable that those not of our faith would doubt this occurance, since it is very much at odds with the validity of the authority of their own religious organizations.
One of the first things Jesus Christ himself taught the young Joseph Smith, in that great vision, was that an apostasy had occurred. Joseph's object was not to form a new religion, but to obtain from God direction on which church to join. However, according to Joseph Smith, the Lord instead introduced the fact that an apostasy had occurred:
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."(JS-H 1: 19)
Like other things that we claim, the Apostasy, and by association, the Restoration, depends on the truthfulness of the account of the First Vision. "Was Joseph Smith really a prophet of God, and did he, in fact, converse with the Lord, as he claimed?", is the question that must be answered.
Vanhin
Did the church cease to Exist?
in Christian Beliefs Board
Posted
I would just like to add that Jesus Christ was God prior to his time in mortality. Under the direction of the Father, he created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. He is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament and the promised Messiah of the New Testament. It is He who appeared to the brother of Jared in the Book of Mormon hundreds of years before he was born into mortality. I know it's a long read, but check this out, I think you will find it interesting. I am interested in your thoughts on these passages:
4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.
5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men.
6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.
7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?
8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?
10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.
11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:4-16)
Regards,
Vanhin