Ankh
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Posts posted by Ankh
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Rory Storm and the Hurricanes. (Ringo's band before The Beatles)
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Greetings drham3rd,
... As I was reading the Book of Mormon as an investigator, what told me that it is true is its paralles to the Bible! Since it is the history of a tribe of Israel that came to this side of the world, its important to realize how closely the experiences in the BOM are so in tune with those recorded in the Old Testament!
AMEN! I have the same testimony. When I began to read the Book of Mormon for the first time (1997), the Spirit bore witness almost immediately to its parallels in the Bible.
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Tovarisch, as to your question, "...is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?" My heart-felt advice would be what Alma said in 32:21, "...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things..."
God bless you both.
Ankh
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Greetings drham3rd,
My question deals with how similar will our resurrected bodies be to our mortal bodies? I have Cerebral Palsy so would my resurrected body be whole..without physical deficits? I'm also sterile, so would I still be unable to reproduce in the Celestral Kingdom? Would like others to share what they believe about the nature of our resurrected body.
Thanks
I think the following sums it up best...
"But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself." (Philippians 3:20-21)
Ankh
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Greetings JodyTJ and welcome,
I don't have a specific verse that is my favourite yet. I've just recently started reading the Book of Mormon, and no verse has really popped out at me so far. I'll find a favourite verse soon enough.
What's your favourite? :)
Like yourself I to have recently (June) begun to (re)read the Book of Mormon after a 15 year absence from the Church. It has been through the picking up of the Book of Mormon again that I have returned to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Though as of now I have no specific favorite verse, I do have a favorite chapter (Alma 32). Very powerful.
I encourage you to keep on reading :)
Ankh
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Why would I have to acknowledge that Christ was created by God the father?
I'm a Trinitarian. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, always were and will always be.
God is not created, He is the first cause.
That's why I cannot believe in pre-mortal spirit beings.
The "person of the Son" in His incarnation as Jesus the Christ said "As the Father hath life in Himself; so has HE GIVEN TO THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF." "I live by the Father" (John 5:26, 6:57)
Ankh
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Greetings Traveler,
Thanks for your reply to "The Most High?"
In the following you wrote...
I believe what you are experiencing and wondering about concerns differences in ancient and modern cultures; specifically the nature, culture and law of ancient “Kingdoms”. Often the Bible and other ancient text will reference terms and ideas that seem foreign to our modern culture and laws. The use of various titles is one of the stark differences. In modern times unique individuals hold titles that referred only to them and one never shares their title and on rare occasions will one share their name. Anciently names and titles were more fluid and when referencing an individual often their name and title where considered one and the same. However, when acting officially for an individual the name and title of the person they represented would often be used. Sound confusing.
Traveler, no, it does not sound confusing. I understand.
To us it may seem so confusing but it is just because individuality plays such a prominent role in our society and culture. We see many reflections of the ancient culture being used in history. For example it is difficult for many to understand the difference between an ancient Egyptian G-d and ancient Egyptian kings or Pharaoh. The Pharaoh had the name of G-d imbedded in their own name and title. So in referencing or using the name of Pharaoh one would also be referencing and using an Egyptian G-d. It is interesting that this practice of name use began in Egypt about the time of Abraham. And we are told in scripture that G-d changed Abraham’s name to include the ancient reference to G-d or I Am. Thus Abraham’s name ended in the same title of Am. So we see the ancient Kingdoms following after the patterns and methods utilized by G-d in scripture.
Yes, and thanks for pointing out that "am" at the end of Abraham's name. It's amazing how you often don't see the little details outlined in scripture. There is also a significance to Yahweh adding the "h" to Abram's name when He changed it to Abraham. I have notes on it somewhere that I have to dig up in order for me to go into it with you, but it is really a blessing when you see why. I'll try in find it to post.
The title of “Most High” is a very interesting title and has implications with the Hebrew temple as well as other ancient temple. We see this same term associated with the ancient Germanic cultures that also have roots in and around the time of Abraham. The title of Most High is the title of the L-rd or of G-d associated with the Holy of Holies of the temple. The title of High L-rd or G-d is associated with the Holy of the Temple as an example of contrast. Thus the title of Most High corresponds to the ancient title given to the Supreme Suzerain of the Kingdom of G-d as associated with the Celestial Kingdom or the Most High level. But this title is also used or referenced by the direct servant vassals of the Supreme Suzerain acting in the name of the Suzerain. I know that this is rather confusing – especially to Traditional Christians that confuse the entire issue of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and think of them as the same whenever one uses the title of the Father when acting as his servant vassal.
Interesting Traveler how this title "Most High" relates to the Hebrew Temple. Would you care to further elaborate? Are you getting these ideas from Margaret Barker's "Temple Theology?"
The easiest way to keep all this straight is the realization that man is fallen and that the G-d of the fallen is the Son Jesus Christ. As we progress through the different levels of holiness, as represented in the temple we are dependent on Jesus that takes upon him the name of the Father and in turn asks us to take upon us his same. Eventually all that obtain salvation will take upon them the ascending names of G-d until we reach the most Holy or Holy of Holy where the title of G-d is “The Most High” which is a name we will take upon ourselves as well. Thus the title "Most High" is the title of the Father that is given to the Son and that is also given to those that take upon them the name of G-d by covenant in his holy temple
Hope this help
The Traveler
Again Traveler you present some good "food for thought." It seems we are both "deep thinkers" and like to get below the surface of Scripture for the pearls
Thanks again Traveler. Look forward to further correspondence with you.
Ankh
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Greetings to you Roseslipper,
Ankh, Hi and welcome back to the faith(the fold)...Hope that you learn and grow in the faith and stay strong all your days. Life is a journey, and we are blessed to have the Gospel...even though we dont understand it all. Jehovah of the old testament is Jesus. If I remember right Yahweh is another word for Jahovah who is Jesus
Elohim is God, Heavenly Father.
I hope I didnt mess u up, for Im not sure what you are really asking....
Thanks for the warm welcome. It's great to be back. God has been opening my heart lately to take another look at the faith (LDS) I professed in 1998, but later failed miserably to nourish it allowing other weeds to choke it out, but it never entirely died.
I do understand LDS position on Jesus being Yahweh of the O.T, and Elohim being the Father. This teaching does settle a lot of misconceptions when reading the O.T, especially when you come from an "evangelical Christian" background.
I apologize if my post wasn't clear in what I was trying to convey.
Ankh :)
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Greetings once again Just_A_Guy,
Assuming I'm understanding you properly, I would venture to state: Both.
I agree. In the process of writing this (supposed) dilemma out for further comments I was beginning to see this solution as both a "shared title" and a subordination issue.
Thanks Just_A_Guy and everyone for allowing me to spill my mind in type.
Please brothers/sisters continue to comment if you like.
Ankh :)
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Greetings there Just_A_Guy,
In the following you wrote...
"As I understand it, some of the very early Hebrews acknowledged a plurality of gods but claimed that their god was the mightiest of all the pagan gods and, therefore, the only one really worth worshipping. Therefore, OT references to Jehovah as the "most high" are comparing Him to the gods worshipped by the Hebrews' peers; not to His Father Elohim. Any similar references in the NT, BoM, and D&C are simply following suit."
Thanks for your reply. I understand where you are coming from sir and I can concur that being that Yahweh's allotted share was Jacob/Israel (Deuteronomy 32:9) and that the people acknowledged Him so as their Most High God vs the other tribal gods surrounding them (Deuteronomy 6:13-14).
But in regards to the Father Elohim being called "the Most High" (Deuteronomy 32:8) vs Yahweh (Psalms 91:9)... again is that a shared title being they are comprised of one Godhead, or are we looking at subordination being that the Father is "the Most High", "the Highest" (Luke 1:32, 35) of Yahweh, both as the firstborn spirit child of the Father as well as the only begotten in the flesh/Jesus, and Yahweh being the "Most High" over all that the Father has given Him such as angels, authorities, and powers (1 Peter 3:22)?
Ankh
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Greetings everyone,
This is my first post here in quite some time. The last being in July 2008.
As I make my way back into the faith I gave testimony to and followed that confirmation with Baptism (2 Nephi 9:23) in 1998, I would like to pose a question to the Latter Day Saint brethren/sisters in regards to the title "Most High."
Being that, as we teach, Jesus was the LORD/Yahweh of the Old Testament, would not such Scriptures as Psalms 7:17, 9:1-2, 91:1-2, 92:1, 8...etc. be speaking of Him?
Now, if this is the case, and this is my dilemma, how can we then say Yahweh is the Most High, when Elohim, who is the Father of the spirit of Yahweh and the Only Begotten in the flesh is called the "Most High" in such passages as Mark 5:7, Luke 8:28?
Since, as we teach, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit comprise one Godhead, acting as one God, united in purpose and will, though they are separate beings, could this title of "the Most High" be thus used interchangeably between them being that they do comprise one Godhead?
Thanks in advance
Ankh
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Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker,
At the end of this educational post you wrote this...
"I will leave it here for discussion. Even though there is much more, I would like some of your thoughts, comments, questions. There is definitely more that will be developed but I will leave it at this.
SeattleTruthSeeker, I for one look forward to you're further development of this post ~ "Israel's God - An Old Testament Doctrine"
Also, since I have resurrected this post from the (sleeping) archives -zzzz- how about others offering their thoughts on this wonderful subject of Jehovah (the Son) being the God of Israel (3 Nephi 11:13-14) vs the Father (Elohim).
There is much confusion regarding this in Christiandom. Let's shine a little light on the subject... OK?
Good Evening to all
Ankh
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Greetings again SeattleTruthSeeker,
Yes brother that is a good one (Matthew 23:37) to indicate that Christ was the "God of Israel"
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
I was always taken by the testimony of Nathanael in John 1:49 when first confronting Christ...
"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Wow!... what a powerful testimony of who this man was who was before Nathanael. And this revelation to Nathanael was BEFORE Peter had his in Matthew 16:16.
What is most interesting is how Nathanael relates the "Son of God" with being the "KIng of Israel." Because in Isaiah 44:6 we have the LORD (Yahweh) saying this Himself...
"Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
In Zephaniah 3:15 we read this...
"The LORD (Yahweh) hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD (Yahweh), is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
So without a doubt we can see that the "King of Israel" was Yahweh and Nathanael testifying that this Rabbi before him was the "King of Israel" who in turn was the "Son of God." leaves no confusion as to WHO the "King of Israel" was. And to think... most of the religious leaders didn't have a clue. (John 8:25, 53)
Israel's God truly was one God and that God was YHWH/Jesus Christ. This leaves the question as to who the Father and Spirit are because, the Evangelical Christian is faced with a very serious delimma, that dilemma being the separate distinct identies of the Father from the son.
Yes... a very serious dilemma indeed.
Ankh
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Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker,
Excellent post... and a subject I find most fascinating. For so long, as a former evangelical Christian, you always were under the assumption that the LORD in the O.T was speaking of the Father, and thus, that is how you often interpreted it... which in turn lead to misunderstanding, which lead to misinterpreting it throughout the O.T.
For years I went in circles looking at it this way, not realizing that most often LORD was speaking of the Son/Yahweh. It wasn't until earlier this year upon re-investigating the LDS faith that I realized that the LORD (Yahwah) of the O.T was in actuality the "Firstborn Son of Elohim", and it was Him who was given the nation of Israel as an inheritance, thus, it's King (Isaiah 44:6), Redeemer (Isaiah 48:17), LORD (Isaiah 37:20) , God (Isaiah 43:3), Saviour (Isaiah 43:11), father (Isaiah 63:16) and Ruler (Micah 5:2).
I find it most challenging nowadays to try and prove this unto those who still read the O.T with the assumption that the LORD is the Father. Now don't get me wrong, LORD/YHVH is at times used interchangeably between the Father and the Son, example: Genesis 19:24, but in the majority of the O.T it is the Son/YHVH speaking or being spoken of.
When reading John 8:58 do we not have a dead giveaway of who the "I AM" was in the O.T? Jesus told the Jews over and over again that they did NOT KNOW THE FATHER (John 7:28. 8:19, 54-55) even though they claimed that their one Father was God (John 8:41) so for Christ to tell then that He was the great "I AM" just blew them away, so much so that they took up stones to stone Him and even asked Him earlier, "Who art thou" (John 8:25) They just could not understand who was before them even when Christ told them that though they believed and trusted in Moses, it was Moses who wrote of Him (John 5:45-47) signifying the Torah spoke of Him.
Is it not the same today? There are still many who do not know who Christ was/is, and misinterpret the O.T "God of Israel" as being the Father... especially when reading Deuteronomy 6:4 as you have noted. But this misinterpetation can be cleared up quite easily if we look to the "restored gospel" along with the Bible... for have we not read that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established? (Matt. 18:16)
"And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD/YHVH, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. (Isaiah 45:3)
WHO is the God of Israel?
"And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying: Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come. (3 Nephi 11:13-15)
"Who do men say that I the Son of man am? (Matthew 18:13)
Look forward to more correspondence SeattleTruthSeeker :)
Ankh
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Greetings Justice,
Jesus claimed to be the God of the Old Testament, this is why the people of His day tried to kill Him over and over.
Exodus 3:
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Interestingly enough, I Am is literally translated from Jehova. This is the name Moses took back to the Hebrews who did not know God's name.
Jesus answers a question in the New Testament this way:
John 8:
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:
The Jews knew exactly what Christ was claiming, to be the God of their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or that He was Jehova. This is why they took up stones to kill Him. If they understood it any other way they would not have tried to stone Him.
Exactly Justice. Did you notice what Jesus says in verses 54 & 55? Here all along the Jews must have been thinking the GOD of Israel was the Father, but, Christ tells them even though you guys say the Father is your GOD (John 8:41), you have NOT KNOWN HIM. So know wonder they picked up stones to stone him (Jesus) when he said to them, "Before Abraham, was I AM"... claiming to be just THAT, the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"
Know wonder they asked Christ in John 8:25, "Who art thou"
Just my thoughts.
Ankh
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Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker,
"The Bible truly does teaches and supports the first article of faith of the Mormon Church. And that is why I am starting to come back to the LDS Faith and coming back to the LDS Church.
Yes brother I fully concur. It seems we're both making our way back. Welcome back.
Ankh
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Greetings Brother Rameumptom,
Ankh,
Let me throw in my 2 cents worth, which is about all I can afford due to gas prices....
D&C 88 and 93 tell us about Intelligence, light and truth. It seems to me that as we move toward God or away from him, we gain or lose light and truth in ourselves. God sends throughout all of space the Light or Spirit of Christ. This is His power that allows all things to organize and function.
The more we are infused with the Light of Christ, the more God-like we are. Jesus and the Holy Ghost became so God-like in the premortal existence that the infusion of God's light in them (indwelling, if you will) that they had already received the power and ability to be God-like. Still, we see with Jesus that he not completed (exalted) as of yet, because he still required mortality, a body, and resurrection. Obviously, there are levels of godhood. Many, including me, read Abraham 3 in this way. Those surrounding God were the "great and noble ones", not just the average spirit (organized intelligence). These were gods before the Earth was formed, though they were not yet exalted.
The term "Father" requires defining. Jesus is both the Father and the Son, according to scripture. Just as I am both a father and son, depending on the role I am playing at the moment, so is Christ the "very Eternal Father" as well as the Son of God. Our Father in Heaven is also our Father, due to the role he plays as our Creator, and Benefactor. Even if we weren't created in the way mortal children are born, fatherhood is still a term that applies. I am a step-father and an adoptive father, and have been a foster father in the past. While I haven't been involved in the biological creation of these children, my actions and efforts have still given me that title. God's goal is to save his children in the family unit, with as much joy and truth and light each is willing to receive. Whatever amount of light and truth the Spirit of Christ has infused us with will determine what glory we will receive. All will return to be his family in a kingdom of glory, except for sons of perdition. Now, depending upon the amount of glory an individual is willing and able to receive will determine the glories, responsibilities and opportunities given in the next life, but they are all still His children.
Brother rameumptom, as always your posts are a breath of fresh air. I thank you for addressing me in my post
Your insights here were quite helpful but I will need time to digest what you have written here. If you wouldn't mind looking at my initial post to this thread "How is God Our Father?" and commenting I would be much obilged :)Thanks again.
Ankh
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Greetings aliasgeorge,
In the following you write,
Ankh,
Interesting questions. I think one of the impediments to this discussion are clear and solid definitions of words... I recommend you read "the promised messiah" by BRMcconkie. Chapter 10 in particular, entitled "Christ is the God of Israel" renders some great definitions of words which clarify much of the scriptures concerning, eternity, eternitity to eternity, how Jesus Christ is the first-born spirit child, yet also from beginning to end, from eternity to eternity, etc. (need to combine with chapter 9) Very clear and concise and sound explanations on this issue.
Concerning "God" and the status of a "God", read chapter 8: "there is one God".
Concerning the premortal status of Christ as God, read chapter 7: "Messiah is God."
Concerning how the premortal messiah is "God":chapter 12: "messiah is the perfect one"
I guess a thorough explanation can be found in chapters 7-10.
The whole book has some incredible insights and clear explanations concerning deeper doctrinal issues. Make sure you read the last 2 chapters as well--incredible.
Aliasgeorge... thanks for the tip. I do have Mr. McConkie's 5 volume set on the Messiah on my list of books to purchase. Sounds like some interesting material.
IMHO, many will write their two cents here in the forum, and I just gave you mine, but nearly all is speculation. These readings will not cross the "t's" and dot the "I's" concerning all of your questions per say (it will on some though), but they will give you a sound foundation upon which you can stand. Then you will be able to discount many speculative opinions and theories because they refute another gospel truth. Many opinions in this forum can be effectively checked off the list if we understand and hold true to these doctrinal foundations.
I have been thoroughly reading much LDS material over the months so I am again becoming acquainted with the Church's teachings as well as the opinion of others.
As for "intelligence" and "intelligences," read "the way to perfection" by JFieldingSmith. There are two chapters which specifically address these issues. And as for the "intelligences" which abraham saw, which were graded and possessed agency, they are to be understood as "personal spirits," or spirit-born children of God our Father (see "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son" by the 1st pres and quorum of the 12 apostles).
I'll check it out. As to the issue of "intelligences" I've come to a much clearer understanding on this matter over the last week in my own research as well as with the help of some of the brethren here (Tom K, Justice...) who were a great help. Thanks again brothers
This is a lot of reading, but it sounds like you're genuinely willing to put in the time and effort to understand these things, so I figure I'd just point you to some great sources rather than give you my opinion on the matter.
By all means aliasgeorge do feel free to give your opinion(s). But I do thank you for this post and of the reading material you have pointed out to help me for the furtherence of my LDS education. By the way... isn't that 5 volume set by McConkie out of print? I've seen it on Ebay, but desertbooks.com has it as not available. What's the story?
Peace to you always
Ankh
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Greetings Tom,
It looks like Justice has given this a thorough treatment and is in a dialogue with you -- so I'll let you and Justice work-out the God vs god question.
Thanks Tom, but you're input is appreciated as well. You're the one that got me thinking all this :)
While I know these answers are to be had -- it's not where my focus lies right now during mortality. My focus is on the saving principles of Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. My focus is on the Son of God, on having a relationship with Him.
These other things - I will admit - are very interesting, but irrelevant for now.
I agree Tom that they are irrelevant and are not vital to my salvation... but being one who has an inquiring mind, there are things I just would like to know... not that I always get an immediate answer, but I am told to "ask," "seek," and "knock." If the brethren can help, great. If not I'll continue to ask, seek and knock at the throne of grace.
But by all means -- keep coming with your questions! I appreciate the respect and patience you are extending to us as we try to explain.
Thanks again Tom. I appreciate everyone's patience with me as well. Having been re-introduced to the LDS faith (after a 10 year absence) has been an eye-opener as I am re-learning what I once took for granted and threw away as dung. Wow. was I ever so wrong
Exaltation occurs POST resurrection. God
Before that we can attain to being god.
Tom
Got it
Ankh
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Greetings Justice,
In the following you write...
I have always thought of it like this...
In the pre-mortal existence we needed 2 things in order to become like God, or in other words, that's simply saying there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become a god.
Justice... wouldn't you mean that there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become like Heavenly Father, vs becoming a god? Are we not already gods (gods in embryo) and that as intelligences we have always existed and were NOT created "gods" but were created "sons of God." God does not differentiate Himself from man based on His Godhood but rather His Eternal Fatherhood.
This isn't really sacrilegious if you consider:
Acts 17: 28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Many people say he is just stating what other poets have said, and not official doctrine. Yet, it is clear he repeats it and agrees with it. Truth is truth, regardless of the source.
We know we are not His "offspring" in the flesh. The only other possibility is that it is in the spirit.
Yes... would shine light on Hebrews 12:9 as well as Numbers 27:16. We are His "literal" spirit children.
Our Father in Heaven wanted to give us these two things we needed:
1) a physical body
2) to know right and wrong
Everyone born into this life has a physical body, of this we are certain and need no evidence.
Listen to what Lucifer and God said about the second:
Genesis 3: (before and after "man" ate the fruit)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Many think this was a lie, but it was not the lie Lucifer told Eve. It is verified by God after Adam ate the fruit:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So, we now have the two things we needed to be as God.
That's interesting Justice that you quoted those 2 verses from Genesis. I was pondering them yesterday... asking myself, "how could Lucifer have said they "shall be as gods" when in actuality they were already "gods?" Was he hiding this fact from them as he does to most individuals today? Yes, he did tell them a "half/truth" they would "know" good and evil but only after they took on mortality. Now where I get thrown for a loop is in verse 22 where it is said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." I can understand the Father saying that since God was once as man now is, but the Son could not as he had not yet taken on mortality???
It really is simple and I don't know how all other churches interpret these verses, but they have to be a reach because they really are quite clear.
You be surprised of all the different interpretations
By the way, the lie Lucifer told Eve was that he would not die. Look at the verse just before:
Genesis 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Exactly! The "day" that is spoken in Genesis 2:17 in which God said "they would surely die was spoken in reference to God's time not man's. Remember a "day" with the LORD is as a 1,000 years, and Adam died in that "day"... he was 930.
Thanks Justice :)
Ankh
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In Jesus the Christ it is Chapter 4 (page 30) that talks about it.
It would seem that Godhood and Exaltation are not synonymous. Otherwise the Holy Ghost could not be a God or have been a God either.
Exaltation would seem to require a body.
Greetings Tom,
Yes... you're right. If I would have thought beyond "the Son" I might have realized that the Holy Ghost is "God" and "... has NOT a body of flesh and bone, but is a personage of spirit." Now having said that, let me ask you this... since God and gods are infinite and have no beginning, what constitutes one being a God vs a god? Were the "Son" and the "Holy Ghost" appointed this status (God) by the Father cause of their position in the "Godhead?" And also this... the Son has received exaltation (Acts 2:33) but the "Holy Ghost" has not since he has yet to obtain a body which is a requirement for exaltation, right?
I hope these questions don't seem "elementary"... I'm just trying to sort out some things in my mind in order to be able to have a clearer understanding of LDS beliefs. After being exposed to "churchanity" for well over 25 years it takes time to be deprogramed of many false teachings that often cloud your mind in understanding the "restored gospel."
Thanks again Tom :)
Ankh
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Did anything I post assist with answering your question?
Tom
Greetings Tom,
I did look in Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ" for answers relating to Christ's obtaining of "Godhood" in the preexistence but to no avail. The more I contemplate the question of how Christ received "Godhood" in the preexistence the more other questions arise. For one... isn't "godhood" received at exaltation? If so, how did Christ receive his if he did not first take on flesh. Is it possible to receive "godhood" in the "first estate" thus bypassing the "second estate" which I thought was necessary for "exaltation/godhood?"
Brother... where am I missing it? Can anyone help me get this straight in my mind?
Thanks in advance
Ankh
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Sure!
I know this is discussed in "Jesus the Christ" by James Talmage.
Hemi may know about an online version of this book.
I don't have a copy with me at the moment, but when I get home I will look up the relevant bits.
Here are few talks where it is mentioned:
LDS.org - Ensign Article - Looking to the Savior
From that talk:
Throughout the thousand years of Book of Mormon history, many prophets bore solemn witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, of His premortal godhood, of His earthly ministry—His suffering, His death, His resurrection—and of the plan of salvation by which we can make His atonement effective in our lives. These prophets spoke from pure knowledge, knowledge that came by personal visitations of the Savior to them, by the testimony of angels who spoke with them, by visions, and by the power of the Holy Ghost. They knew whereof they spoke and could not be shaken from their testimonies.
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He is Jehovah - the God of the Old Testament (God before He was born)
Topical Guide: Jesus Christ - Jehovah
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He was the Creator of this Earth (under the direction of the Father):
Topical Guide: Jesus Christ, Creator
See if that is enough for you. :)
Tom
Tom... thanks. I do have James Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ." I'll look to see where I can find his mentioning of Christ's obtaining "Godhood" in the preexistence.
Also thanks for the Ensign article... the 2 topical guides I'm familiar with.
Ankh
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Greetings Tomk,
In the following you write...
We can consider ourselves "Gods" in the fact that we are "Gods in embryo" -- we are the "same species" as God the Father....we just lack the spiritual maturation.
Some, through obedience, obtained godhood in the pre-existence, while still spirits. Christ was one of those. The Holy Ghost was one of those.
So a body is not needed for Godhood, per se, but perhaps is needed for Exaltation...Heavenly Father's mode of living...being able to have spirit children.
Tomk... In reviewing your response above I underlined that which again caught my interest, that of Christ obtaining "Godhood" in the pre-existence. Where can I obtain more information/teaching on this subject... would you (and others) care to elaborate further on this statement?
My thanks in advance
Ankh
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Greetings Justice,
Let's start with verse 1. I'm going to quote Genesis, so the non-members in the forum can participate, but let's not forget about the other 2 accounts we have.
Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
There is no greater division between Christian faiths about any single scripture than the myriad of beliefs in the world about the main words in the opening verse of the Bible. If people can not agree on the 5 main words in the first verse, it will be impossible to agree with nearly every scripture that follows.
1. beginning
2. God
3. created
4. heaven
5. earth
It's a given that people with different faiths, from different backgrounds will view 1-3 very differently. Most of what we need to understand each other on are in the first 3 words.
I'll make a general definition according to the LDS faith:
1. beginning: This can be understood to mean the beginning of the planning and actual creation of this earth. We are told through modern revelation that there have been an innumerable (to man) amount of worlds created. But, that this account pertains to the creation of this earth we live on. It is not describing the creation of the first man ever, but the first man to inhabit this earth.
Excellent point.
2. God: This is the premortal Jesus Christ, and His name is Jehova. He will later be born in the flesh to Mary, and Atone for the sins of mankind, and reverse the effects of the fall.
Justice... have you ever noticed in the Hebrew translation of this first verse that there is a "gap" of translation between the word "God" and "the heavens?" Example...
"In the beginning created God [ ] the heavens and the earth."
Now that "gap" of translation [ ] has the two Hebrew letters "Alef & Tav" which is the "first" and "last" letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Who is the "Alef" (first) and "Tav" (last)? Isaiah 44:6/Revelation 1:17. Could this "gap" after "God" and "the heavens" be pointing to and identifying who the creator was? "In the beginning created God~ [first and last/YHVH]~ the heavens and the earth."? Just a thought.
3. created: This means that things were organized or formed from existing matter or material, and not willed or wished into existence from nothing. Joseph Smith once said, "If there ever was a time when there was nothing, there would still be nothing." This is a different way of saying "you can't get something from nothing."
Oh how many in Christiandom believe and accept that creation was from "nothing"
Now, for 4 and 5 (heaven and earth) we will leave to the scriptures to define as we move through the first chapter.
Any thoughts about the first verse, especially the first 3 words on my list? Please don't move ahead, it can get confusing if we move back and forth.
Enjoying the study Justice
Ankh
Hello
in Introduce Yourself
Posted
Greetings to you Drtm1988 and welcome :)
After 15 years of being "inactive" I just recently returned to the fold. It's a shame I ever left in the first place for I didn't realize then that I had the (restored) Truth, but instead got caught up in an endless search for the Truth by being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Picking up the Book of Mormom again in June I began a slow reading of its content and found within days my heart beginning to swell with joy and a longing to return to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After contacting the missionaries in my area and meeting with them as well as a member of our ward, I returned to the fold as of August 11. Since then I have met with the Bishop, and now I wait for my calling and to be able to go the Temple.
My advice... return to the church, do not procrastinate, step out by faith and God wil meet you half way and you will be glad you did.
God bless you.
Ankh