Ankh

Greetings to you Drtm1988 and welcome :) After 15 years of being "inactive" I just recently returned to the fold. It's a shame I ever left in the first place for I didn't realize then that I had the (restored) Truth, but instead got caught up in an endless search for the Truth by being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Picking up the Book of Mormom again in June I began a slow reading of its content and found within days my heart beginning to swell with joy and a longing to return to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After contacting the missionaries in my area and meeting with them as well as a member of our ward, I returned to the fold as of August 11. Since then I have met with the Bishop, and now I wait for my calling and to be able to go the Temple. My advice... return to the church, do not procrastinate, step out by faith and God wil meet you half way and you will be glad you did. God bless you. Ankh

Rory Storm and the Hurricanes. (Ringo's band before The Beatles)

Greetings drham3rd, AMEN! I have the same testimony. When I began to read the Book of Mormon for the first time (1997), the Spirit bore witness almost immediately to its parallels in the Bible. ======================================================== Tovarisch, as to your question, "...is it possible for you to have a testimony that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon real while having specific doubts about some elements?" My heart-felt advice would be what Alma said in 32:21, "...faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things..." God bless you both. Ankh

Greetings drham3rd, I think the following sums it up best... "But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself." (Philippians 3:20-21) Ankh

Greetings JodyTJ and welcome, Like yourself I to have recently (June) begun to (re)read the Book of Mormon after a 15 year absence from the Church. It has been through the picking up of the Book of Mormon again that I have returned to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Though as of now I have no specific favorite verse, I do have a favorite chapter (Alma 32). Very powerful. I encourage you to keep on reading :) Ankh

The "person of the Son" in His incarnation as Jesus the Christ said "As the Father hath life in Himself; so has HE GIVEN TO THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF." "I live by the Father" (John 5:26, 6:57) Ankh

Greetings Traveler, Thanks for your reply to "The Most High?" In the following you wrote... Traveler, no, it does not sound confusing. I understand. Yes, and thanks for pointing out that "am" at the end of Abraham's name. It's amazing how you often don't see the little details outlined in scripture. There is also a significance to Yahweh adding the "h" to Abram's name when He changed it to Abraham. I have notes on it somewhere that I have to dig up in order for me to go into it with you, but it is really a blessing when you see why. I'll try in find it to post. Interesting Traveler how this title "Most High" relates to the Hebrew Temple. Would you care to further elaborate? Are you getting these ideas from Margaret Barker's "Temple Theology?" Again Traveler you present some good "food for thought." It seems we are both "deep thinkers" and like to get below the surface of Scripture for the pearls Thanks again Traveler. Look forward to further correspondence with you. Ankh

Greetings to you Roseslipper, Thanks for the warm welcome. It's great to be back. God has been opening my heart lately to take another look at the faith (LDS) I professed in 1998, but later failed miserably to nourish it allowing other weeds to choke it out, but it never entirely died. I do understand LDS position on Jesus being Yahweh of the O.T, and Elohim being the Father. This teaching does settle a lot of misconceptions when reading the O.T, especially when you come from an "evangelical Christian" background. I apologize if my post wasn't clear in what I was trying to convey. Ankh :)

Greetings once again Just_A_Guy, I agree. In the process of writing this (supposed) dilemma out for further comments I was beginning to see this solution as both a "shared title" and a subordination issue. Thanks Just_A_Guy and everyone for allowing me to spill my mind in type. Please brothers/sisters continue to comment if you like. Ankh :)

Greetings there Just_A_Guy, In the following you wrote... Thanks for your reply. I understand where you are coming from sir and I can concur that being that Yahweh's allotted share was Jacob/Israel (Deuteronomy 32:9) and that the people acknowledged Him so as their Most High God vs the other tribal gods surrounding them (Deuteronomy 6:13-14). But in regards to the Father Elohim being called "the Most High" (Deuteronomy 32:8) vs Yahweh (Psalms 91:9)... again is that a shared title being they are comprised of one Godhead, or are we looking at subordination being that the Father is "the Most High", "the Highest" (Luke 1:32, 35) of Yahweh, both as the firstborn spirit child of the Father as well as the only begotten in the flesh/Jesus, and Yahweh being the "Most High" over all that the Father has given Him such as angels, authorities, and powers (1 Peter 3:22)? Ankh

Greetings everyone, This is my first post here in quite some time. The last being in July 2008. As I make my way back into the faith I gave testimony to and followed that confirmation with Baptism (2 Nephi 9:23) in 1998, I would like to pose a question to the Latter Day Saint brethren/sisters in regards to the title "Most High." Being that, as we teach, Jesus was the LORD/Yahweh of the Old Testament, would not such Scriptures as Psalms 7:17, 9:1-2, 91:1-2, 92:1, 8...etc. be speaking of Him? Now, if this is the case, and this is my dilemma, how can we then say Yahweh is the Most High, when Elohim, who is the Father of the spirit of Yahweh and the Only Begotten in the flesh is called the "Most High" in such passages as Mark 5:7, Luke 8:28? Since, as we teach, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit comprise one Godhead, acting as one God, united in purpose and will, though they are separate beings, could this title of "the Most High" be thus used interchangeably between them being that they do comprise one Godhead? Thanks in advance Ankh

Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker, At the end of this educational post you wrote this... SeattleTruthSeeker, I for one look forward to you're further development of this post ~ "Israel's God - An Old Testament Doctrine" Also, since I have resurrected this post from the (sleeping) archives -zzzz- how about others offering their thoughts on this wonderful subject of Jehovah (the Son) being the God of Israel (3 Nephi 11:13-14) vs the Father (Elohim). There is much confusion regarding this in Christiandom. Let's shine a little light on the subject... OK? Good Evening to all Ankh

Greetings again SeattleTruthSeeker, Yes brother that is a good one (Matthew 23:37) to indicate that Christ was the "God of Israel" "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! I was always taken by the testimony of Nathanael in John 1:49 when first confronting Christ... "Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Wow!... what a powerful testimony of who this man was who was before Nathanael. And this revelation to Nathanael was BEFORE Peter had his in Matthew 16:16. What is most interesting is how Nathanael relates the "Son of God" with being the "KIng of Israel." Because in Isaiah 44:6 we have the LORD (Yahweh) saying this Himself... "Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. In Zephaniah 3:15 we read this... "The LORD (Yahweh) hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD (Yahweh), is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. So without a doubt we can see that the "King of Israel" was Yahweh and Nathanael testifying that this Rabbi before him was the "King of Israel" who in turn was the "Son of God." leaves no confusion as to WHO the "King of Israel" was. And to think... most of the religious leaders didn't have a clue. (John 8:25, 53) Yes... a very serious dilemma indeed. Ankh

Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker, Excellent post... and a subject I find most fascinating. For so long, as a former evangelical Christian, you always were under the assumption that the LORD in the O.T was speaking of the Father, and thus, that is how you often interpreted it... which in turn lead to misunderstanding, which lead to misinterpreting it throughout the O.T. For years I went in circles looking at it this way, not realizing that most often LORD was speaking of the Son/Yahweh. It wasn't until earlier this year upon re-investigating the LDS faith that I realized that the LORD (Yahwah) of the O.T was in actuality the "Firstborn Son of Elohim", and it was Him who was given the nation of Israel as an inheritance, thus, it's King (Isaiah 44:6), Redeemer (Isaiah 48:17), LORD (Isaiah 37:20) , God (Isaiah 43:3), Saviour (Isaiah 43:11), father (Isaiah 63:16) and Ruler (Micah 5:2). I find it most challenging nowadays to try and prove this unto those who still read the O.T with the assumption that the LORD is the Father. Now don't get me wrong, LORD/YHVH is at times used interchangeably between the Father and the Son, example: Genesis 19:24, but in the majority of the O.T it is the Son/YHVH speaking or being spoken of. When reading John 8:58 do we not have a dead giveaway of who the "I AM" was in the O.T? Jesus told the Jews over and over again that they did NOT KNOW THE FATHER (John 7:28. 8:19, 54-55) even though they claimed that their one Father was God (John 8:41) so for Christ to tell then that He was the great "I AM" just blew them away, so much so that they took up stones to stone Him and even asked Him earlier, "Who art thou" (John 8:25) They just could not understand who was before them even when Christ told them that though they believed and trusted in Moses, it was Moses who wrote of Him (John 5:45-47) signifying the Torah spoke of Him. Is it not the same today? There are still many who do not know who Christ was/is, and misinterpret the O.T "God of Israel" as being the Father... especially when reading Deuteronomy 6:4 as you have noted. But this misinterpetation can be cleared up quite easily if we look to the "restored gospel" along with the Bible... for have we not read that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established? (Matt. 18:16) "And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD/YHVH, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. (Isaiah 45:3) WHO is the God of Israel? "And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying: Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come. (3 Nephi 11:13-15) "Who do men say that I the Son of man am? (Matthew 18:13) Look forward to more correspondence SeattleTruthSeeker :) Ankh

Greetings Justice, Exactly Justice. Did you notice what Jesus says in verses 54 & 55? Here all along the Jews must have been thinking the GOD of Israel was the Father, but, Christ tells them even though you guys say the Father is your GOD (John 8:41), you have NOT KNOWN HIM. So know wonder they picked up stones to stone him (Jesus) when he said to them, "Before Abraham, was I AM"... claiming to be just THAT, the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" Know wonder they asked Christ in John 8:25, "Who art thou" Just my thoughts. Ankh

Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker, Yes brother I fully concur. It seems we're both making our way back. Welcome back. Ankh

Greetings Brother Rameumptom, Brother rameumptom, as always your posts are a breath of fresh air. I thank you for addressing me in my post Your insights here were quite helpful but I will need time to digest what you have written here. If you wouldn't mind looking at my initial post to this thread "How is God Our Father?" and commenting I would be much obilged :) Thanks again. Ankh

Greetings aliasgeorge, In the following you write, Aliasgeorge... thanks for the tip. I do have Mr. McConkie's 5 volume set on the Messiah on my list of books to purchase. Sounds like some interesting material. I have been thoroughly reading much LDS material over the months so I am again becoming acquainted with the Church's teachings as well as the opinion of others. I'll check it out. As to the issue of "intelligences" I've come to a much clearer understanding on this matter over the last week in my own research as well as with the help of some of the brethren here (Tom K, Justice...) who were a great help. Thanks again brothers By all means aliasgeorge do feel free to give your opinion(s). But I do thank you for this post and of the reading material you have pointed out to help me for the furtherence of my LDS education. By the way... isn't that 5 volume set by McConkie out of print? I've seen it on Ebay, but desertbooks.com has it as not available. What's the story? Peace to you always Ankh

Greetings Tom, Thanks Tom, but you're input is appreciated as well. You're the one that got me thinking all this :) I agree Tom that they are irrelevant and are not vital to my salvation... but being one who has an inquiring mind, there are things I just would like to know... not that I always get an immediate answer, but I am told to "ask," "seek," and "knock." If the brethren can help, great. If not I'll continue to ask, seek and knock at the throne of grace. Thanks again Tom. I appreciate everyone's patience with me as well. Having been re-introduced to the LDS faith (after a 10 year absence) has been an eye-opener as I am re-learning what I once took for granted and threw away as dung. Wow. was I ever so wrong Got it Ankh

Greetings Justice, In the following you write... Justice... wouldn't you mean that there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become like Heavenly Father, vs becoming a god? Are we not already gods (gods in embryo) and that as intelligences we have always existed and were NOT created "gods" but were created "sons of God." God does not differentiate Himself from man based on His Godhood but rather His Eternal Fatherhood. Yes... would shine light on Hebrews 12:9 as well as Numbers 27:16. We are His "literal" spirit children. That's interesting Justice that you quoted those 2 verses from Genesis. I was pondering them yesterday... asking myself, "how could Lucifer have said they "shall be as gods" when in actuality they were already "gods?" Was he hiding this fact from them as he does to most individuals today? Yes, he did tell them a "half/truth" they would "know" good and evil but only after they took on mortality. Now where I get thrown for a loop is in verse 22 where it is said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." I can understand the Father saying that since God was once as man now is, but the Son could not as he had not yet taken on mortality??? You be surprised of all the different interpretations Exactly! The "day" that is spoken in Genesis 2:17 in which God said "they would surely die was spoken in reference to God's time not man's. Remember a "day" with the LORD is as a 1,000 years, and Adam died in that "day"... he was 930. Thanks Justice :) Ankh

Greetings Tom, Yes... you're right. If I would have thought beyond "the Son" I might have realized that the Holy Ghost is "God" and "... has NOT a body of flesh and bone, but is a personage of spirit." Now having said that, let me ask you this... since God and gods are infinite and have no beginning, what constitutes one being a God vs a god? Were the "Son" and the "Holy Ghost" appointed this status (God) by the Father cause of their position in the "Godhead?" And also this... the Son has received exaltation (Acts 2:33) but the "Holy Ghost" has not since he has yet to obtain a body which is a requirement for exaltation, right? I hope these questions don't seem "elementary"... I'm just trying to sort out some things in my mind in order to be able to have a clearer understanding of LDS beliefs. After being exposed to "churchanity" for well over 25 years it takes time to be deprogramed of many false teachings that often cloud your mind in understanding the "restored gospel." Thanks again Tom :) Ankh

Greetings Tom, I did look in Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ" for answers relating to Christ's obtaining of "Godhood" in the preexistence but to no avail. The more I contemplate the question of how Christ received "Godhood" in the preexistence the more other questions arise. For one... isn't "godhood" received at exaltation? If so, how did Christ receive his if he did not first take on flesh. Is it possible to receive "godhood" in the "first estate" thus bypassing the "second estate" which I thought was necessary for "exaltation/godhood?" Brother... where am I missing it? Can anyone help me get this straight in my mind? Thanks in advance Ankh

Tom... thanks. I do have James Talmage's book "Jesus the Christ." I'll look to see where I can find his mentioning of Christ's obtaining "Godhood" in the preexistence. Also thanks for the Ensign article... the 2 topical guides I'm familiar with. Ankh

Greetings Tomk, In the following you write... Tomk... In reviewing your response above I underlined that which again caught my interest, that of Christ obtaining "Godhood" in the pre-existence. Where can I obtain more information/teaching on this subject... would you (and others) care to elaborate further on this statement? My thanks in advance Ankh

Greetings Justice, Excellent point. Justice... have you ever noticed in the Hebrew translation of this first verse that there is a "gap" of translation between the word "God" and "the heavens?" Example... "In the beginning created God [ ] the heavens and the earth." Now that "gap" of translation [ ] has the two Hebrew letters "Alef & Tav" which is the "first" and "last" letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Who is the "Alef" (first) and "Tav" (last)? Isaiah 44:6/Revelation 1:17. Could this "gap" after "God" and "the heavens" be pointing to and identifying who the creator was? "In the beginning created God~ [first and last/YHVH]~ the heavens and the earth."? Just a thought. Oh how many in Christiandom believe and accept that creation was from "nothing" Enjoying the study Justice Ankh