mike_uk
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Posts posted by mike_uk
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Oh, maybe because the Lord commanded it? Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? We don't always know why or understand God's reasons, except sometimes he is just testing us to see if we're willing to obey.
The way I see it, God would not have restored the fullness of the temple blessings to the earth, had Joseph not been fully prepared to receive them. Without obedience by marrying Fanny Alger, there would not have been a visit by Elijah to restore the sealing keys - because Joseph would not have been ready to do all things commanded of God.
I just asked a question. Also, how do you know he commanded it?
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A couple of examples of why i think people label us a cult:
Temple ceremony.
Then the accusations of brainwashing or mind control etc.
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Hi Mike.
The article I just read also said this... (not sure if this helps answer any questions)...
"There is some historical evidence that Joseph Smith knew as early as 1831 that plural marriage would be restored, so it is perfectly legitimate to argue that Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger was such a case."
Interesting. Id like to know more of that evidence.
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I Just read this article...
"Probably the wife about whom we know the least is Fanny Alger, Joseph's first plural wife, whom he came to know in early 1833 when she stayed at the Smith home as a house-assistant of sorts to Emma (such work was common for young women at the time). There are no first-hand accounts of their relationship (from Joseph or Fanny), nor are there second-hand accounts (from Emma or Fanny's family). All that we do have is third hand accounts, most of them recorded many years after the events.
Unfortunately, this lack of reliable and extensive historical detail leaves much room for critics to claim that Joseph Smith had an affair with Fanny and then later invented plural marriage as way to justify his actions. The problem is we don't know the details of the relationship or exactly of what it consisted, and so are left to assume that Joseph acted honorably (as believers) or dishonorably (as critics)."
Just thinking in writing here...
Even though this specific story is interesting...it's still got a TON of holes and unknowns in it.
To make a personal conclusion from this particular very vague story would be like going to a scene of a car accident after the cars are towed away and all that is left is the broken glass on the street...and making a conclusion as to who's fault it was by looking at where the glass is currently lying.
Im not making a song and dance about it. I just find what info we do have available very interesting.
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The keys to eternal marriage were officially restored in 1836. Joseph was commanded to enter into a plural marriage for time, not eternity, with Fanny Alger.
So he just married her civily then? What purpose if it wasnt for eternity? Im not bitching I just dont understand the significance and why he did it.
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Mike,
I'm understanding that you don't believe Joseph Smith to have been a prophet and therefore don't believe in the restored gospel -- is that correct? Do you believe in Christ's atonement and the gospel taught in the Bible? I guess what I'm asking, is what do you have a testimony of -- even a seed of a testimony.
Candy
That is correct. I No longer believe him to be a prophet and that he restored the gospel. Being what I would consider 90% atheist now makes the atonement hard to accept now. Testimony? Hmmmm, nothing. It's a blunt answer I know but thats all I can say now.
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Maybe someone can advise what the heck is going on here.
How did Joseph marry Fanny Alger in April 1833 (the 19 year old nanny/housekeeper) when the sealing keys were not even restored yet? As we know those keys were supposedly restored by Elijah in 1836.
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Thanks Mike. :)
That wasn't me, that was the spirit. God seriously wants a relationship with you.
At this very moment in time I do doubt that but I started last night. I spoke to God and had to dig deep to start. I pleaded for him to help me remember him and invited christ to pull me up.
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I didn't say it was you each time, Mike. No need to be defensive. It just seems I have seen people say this same type of thing three or four times just in the last week or so. I'm not quite grasping why people seem to feel the need to reaffirm that this is indeed a discussion board, and that they are indeed free to express their opinion.
Sorry, it appeared the finger was pointed my way. Sorry, didnt mean to sound defenseive.
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This thread is so interesting. There is so much honesty in here, so many people just pouring their hearts out. Thank you all for being so honest. I have really learned a lot from this thread.
Finding peace is so important...constant struggling and doubt in God and in ourselves is really not going to result in peace.
I think deep deep down, know that God exists, which is why you are struggling but still searching for answers right now...in the past, the idea of God has given you peace in your life. You've been bombarded by so much information that your faith has turned into a need to appeal to the intellect...leaving you confused and kinda cheated.
(been there! Everything you've said...I've had the same thoughts and ideas!)
But please remember...God communicates through the heart, not the mind.
Mike, can I challenge you to something for the next two weeks...?
Put aside any association with any religion and all the intellectual mumbo jumbo, and history of churches, and offensive people, etc).
Wipe your mental slate clean... focus only on your own individual relationship with Jesus Christ....no religion, no literature, no confusion... just you and Christ. Don't read anything...just you and Christ.
For 10 minutes in the morning and evening, go somewhere where you can be completely alone, completely quiet, away from all distractions...
Close your eyes and take a couple deep breaths to relax and clear your mind, in your mind think that you are in a vast peaceful space standing or walking with Jesus Christ. Then pray, and ask to remember Him, don't ask Him to "prove" that he is there, but rather ask him to help you remember.
...for two weeks.
I really still think that a priesthood blessing could be of benefit too, what's the harm right?
Funky
Wow, funky are you sure you arent my wife posting anonmously? You hit the nail right on the head.
Also I will seriously consider your challenge. I really will. I guess then that will prove to myslelf If I really do want to find Jesus again. Dont get me wrong but my whole body tingled when I read this (natural occurence!!!).
Thank you Funky, you are really supportive even though my remarks can be offensive about stuff.
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mike_uk - Help me to understand your logic. Is it the basic church doctorine you are having trouble with, feeling the spirit, Joseph Smith, or exactly what? Your statement above gives me cause for concern that your struggle is more with basic Christianity and the church is only a part of your concerns.
I think to be honest I have told my story often. You guys know so much more about my problems than most of my family/bishop friends do from past posts but I will explain again briefly.
I never felt the spirit or anything remotely unexplainable but just accepted that the silly feelings like the hairs on the back of my neck standing up was maybe the spirit talking to me. Thats about it for spiritual experiences and its pathetic when I hear about others. Still I never doubted for many years, no reason to. I avoided all "anti" literature and stuff i did come across I shelved as being nonsese. Then I became fascinated by church history and stuck to church books and that lead me to further the investigations and gradually I learnt more and more about the early church until I built up a huge collection of "dirt". Then the more research I did the more of an effect it had on me. Temples and Masons, Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham which contains much of our doctrine, BoM problems, Kirtland Bank fiasco, Polygamy, double standards, racism, sexism, blood attonement, Mark Hoffman incident, church whitewashing etc. I studied myself away and concluded JS was a fraud and I got sucked in. I wont elaborate on these things becasue its all out there.
So it went from believing but struggling to feel the spirit through my whole membership to a total disbelief in JS as being a prophet. So now I cannot believe in our doctrine becasue of the information I have and pondered. I will add that I kept this information to myself for a long time whilst still active and it has absolutely torn me to pieces physically. I'm a shadowof my former self
Although I generally accepted the bible to be true some of the events like the Arc and flood etc I thought to be a myth but I have maintined until now atleast a beleif in God and Jesus since i can remember. It's actually very common for people to go through a total belief in something to see it all come crashing down to become atheist. However Im not there just yet.
Does this help?
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I like what wanderer said. :)
By the tone of some of the messages, it sometimes feels more like an arguement board...or a debate board...may the most articulately argumentative person win!
I know you are just mesing around but Im not out to win any arguemnts and if I was I could never win a damned thing on my articulate writing becasue I dont have the skills or the ability to do it as you can tell from my posts.
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Why do people keep saying this? Isn't it obvious? Or is there someone that keeps claiming this isn't a discussion board?
Keep saying this? Wild exageration from you there Vort. Its the 1st time I have ever said it and a rather pontless reply from you tbh.
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So you think it's appropriate to judge the actions of historical figures by modern mores rather than by contemporary ideas?
Funky beat me to it and I was going to say the same thing.
But yes its my opinion and one I share with many thousands of individuals both member and none member. This is a discussion board so im discussing.
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I do believe that many times God answers us in ways we do not expect. Many times he works through other people. It may not seem so miraculous, but it is, as it allows us to serve God in performing his miracles.
Often I find we reject God because he does not want to respond to us in the way we wish. If Joseph Smith could have a First Vision, then why not me....?
Yes that could definately be true. Still I need an answer from him. I want to experience that feeling so many others have. It may not changemy mind about my opinions of JS but would help to know he's out there, thats for sure.
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Is it possible, Mike, that God is coming after you? Is it possible he is using other people in your life to find you and communicate with you? Or maybe he is waiting for you....if indeed you are determined to be lost. He does let us choose... and if we move away from the light he lets us feel the darkness. And he doesn't give blessings, even when we want them and demand them and are hurt because they don't come, before we obey first.
"How oft I would have gathered you..........but you would not."
"Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden...."
"Come follow me, The Savior said."
"Seek me and ye shall find me"
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock."
Come unto Christ, Mike. Come unto Christ.
MissH
Quite possibly yes.
I know it will be hard to believe but I do want to believe and I do want to feel christ in my life. I do want to have a loving relationship where I can approach him and feel his love. I want to know him. I just feel I cannot now. Im so far down the road to atheism I am REALLY struggling to believe they are even out there. No amount of pleading and begging to feel his presence resulted in a damned thing. Ive said that often becasue its the truth. If he wants to make himself known in prayers or the scriptures then I just have to accept that if he is out there, he aint interested in me.
I have to be honest with you all and I know you guys love the church and the faith you have but I wont get anything from it, its not for me even if it was true its standards are WAY above my abilities and its history too questionable now. None of it would ever feel right now I have gained this knowledge. I would always be questioning everything said and would land in trouble or cause offense etc.
You know the more I consider my situation the more Im lead to writing that letter and requesting my name to be removed becasue then maybe I could find christ elsewhere. Christ without the complexities. Surely thats a better path than remaining 90% and counting atheist?
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I find the above bolded statement quite curious. How do you know Joseph did not tell her immediately? Knowing Emma (!), there is not a chance that if he DID tell her, she would've written it down, or told anyone. So, we would have ZERO evidence of it today.
Perhaps his acting in secrecy was a result of her own initial response to what he had told her. That is quite likely, from my reading of In Sacred Loneliness and Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith. He had to act, as it was a commandment-- just as Abraham had to act.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I have to agree with Ram's comments to you also -- it seems you are inapropriately forcing your own 20th and 21 century ideas, mores and standards on people who had a totally different set of ideas, mores and standards. Bad idea.
HiJolly
I can pretty much guarantee Emma knew nothing about many of these women.
On August 18, 1842 Joseph wrote a letter to his plural wife, Elizabeth Ann, who was 17, and her parents.
"I take this opportunity to communicate, some of my feelings, privetely, at this time, which I want you three eternaly to keep in your own bosams; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has pased lately between us. It would afford me great relief, of mind, if those with whom I am alied to love me, now is the time to afford me succour....The nights are very pleasand, indeed, all three of you can come and see me in the fore part of the night, let brother whitney come a little a head and knock at the south east corner of the house, at the window; it is next to the cornfield; I have a room entirely by myself, the whole matter can be attended to with the most perfect safety. The only thing to be careful of, is to find out when Emma comes, then you can not be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty..... ..I think Emma wont come tonight if she dont, dont fail to come to night."
Clearly, Emma was not aware of his marriage to Sarah Ann.
Joseph married seventeen year (why only younger women?) old Lucy Walker on May 1st, the day before Emma arrived on the Maid of Iowa. She later said about her marriage:
"Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know any thing about it at all."
Poor Emma really had a hard time of the whole Polygamy thing. A young woman from Carthage reported:
My sister went into the hotel parlor....to await the call to breakfast. Ten or twelve young women were assembled here, laughing and talking. Mrs. Emma Smith presently joined them,a nd recognizing my sister, whom she had met before, entered into conversation with her. Upon my sister asking, "Mrs. Smith, where does your church get this doctrine of spiritual wives?" her face flushed scarlet, and her eyes blazed as she replied, "Straight from hell, madam."
Inapropriate in your view not mine HiJolly.
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Mike,
While I appreciate your struggle with this, once again, it all comes down to whether God commanded Joseph. Why would Joseph put himself through so much heck otherwise? He could have made his life very easy, by simply turning the religion into another Protestant religion. But as he stated, he knew God had talked with him.
Why did God not warn the peoples that Moses annihilated? Couldn't God have had Moses send an emmissary to them, allow them a chance to repent or move away?
It isn't an issue of what WE view as right or wrong, but whether God commanded it.
Yes Ram I agree, God either coimmanded it or he didnt. Also Ram, thanks for trying to understand, its appreciated.
Ive asked myself why he went through all he did many times in my struggles. Why would he? Was he so totally dillusional that he convinced himself he was who he was? It's not unheard of.
I agree if God commanded it then I will shut up. However, I believe with my whole heart in this instnace he did not. I believe JS was caught in a situation he would rather have not been and conjured up this story about the angel. His many followers oviously believed him and would do anything he said. He used this story of death by sword to win these women over. Thats my theory.
Ahhhhh I hate this. God is supposed to be all knowing, totally loving, kind etc yet he would command someone to do all these things or face death? Wow, real love shown there. An all knowing God would have known that many years later this practise would cause massive problems and spawn idiots like Warren Jeffs. Its not right and sorry I will never change my mind on this.
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Hi Ceeboo,
There is nothing to clear up for me. Plural marriage was and will be again a sacred and holy practice ordained by the Father. Perhaps not in this life, but in the eternities. As for the age of consent post.....it was just FYI.
That makes me very uncomfortable and its been hard for me to swallow for years. I just tried to shelve that principal. Id rather not spend my eternities with a God who would force me into this practise. No thanks.
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All this shows is our views on marriage age have changed, just as our views on many issues have changed over the centuries. We're also against slavery, for women's rights, against arranged marriages, against robber barons, etc.
Warren Jeffs' works today fly in the face of modern laws. Few on the frontier would have questioned a 14 year old being married. And while politics of the late 19th century evolved against polygamy, it still flies in the face of reality, where it was illegal to marry more than one woman, but it was okay to live or sleep with more than one woman. Mike, do you consider people that just sleep around of a higher moral authority than those who practiced polygamy? If so, how?
Why is it that we are so vehemently aghast at polygamy, but not about free sex movements? Why is it that the only motivating factor for reducing the number of sex partners is to avoid STDs? Where is the moral voice in that?
Given the choice, I'd prefer plural marriages, where women have legal rights, than the currently acceptable immorality that gives no right nor protection to anyone.
Ram, I understand your viewpoint.
My problems are the inclusion of children, Polyandry, angel stories, doing it behind Emma's back etc. If he was commanded of God, Emma should have been told immediately. Maybe God if he was indeed kind and loving could have given her a revelation or popped down for a visit to inform as to what was about to happen. That poor woman.
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It isn't anymore far fetched than a donkey speaking and attempting to protect Balaam from being slain by an angel with a sword. Why would God care if Balaam cursed Israel? Would it have mattered? Would it have caused Israel to be destroyed? Seems rather silly to me that we even have the story in the Bible. If God's will can be influenced that much by one non-Israelite, so that God has to send an angel with a sword, then he isn't a very powerful God.
Or am I overlooking something?
You have a problem with plural marriage. We get that. But polygamy was and is accepted in many cultures for thousands of years. Had we been raised in such an environment, perhaps it would not be so terrible to us today.
It is too easy to look back on history and judge from our "enlightened" viewpoint. 200 years ago, it was common in the American west to marry at 14 years of age, and sometimes younger. I've done genealogical research in the Kentucky region for the 19th century, and you'd be surprised at how young some married. And that many of the family trees do not branch. Yet it was accepted and considered normal. Today, we wouldn't consider doing that, as our standards and world view have changed.
What they did isn't wrong, unless we try to impose upon peoples of the past our set of values.
You are right, it isnt any more far fetched than those incidents and they are probably myth also. You arent overlooking anything at all. I have always struggled with those stories. Especially the biggies like world flood, noah etc.
I have heard it to be common to marry 14 year olds back then many times but my own none biased research tells a different story indeed. Yes it happened but not frequently. The vast majority of women back then married around 20. But, even if it was the norm, WHY was there a need to marry a child? Show me proof that it was acceptable and of the norm please.
I think what they did was wrong and has effected us becasue of it we have the likes of Warren Jeffs. I saw a picture of him with a child draped around his neck kissing. Appaling. Yea too right it bothers me.
Its probably beneficial for us all for me to move on from this topic becasue its plain that the whole thing disgusts me and the more we discuss it the more my anger grows. On to nice topics.
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Changed:
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean?
Mike:
I don't get the whole lost idea : I guess I am lost, gone and unreachable.
In my belief, God can do anything. While we sometimes feel that way or people may communicate it to us...I see it as deception.
From a believers point of view I am lost. People here or lets call them the good shpherd have tried to find me by advising me and giving me a helping hand but I wont take hold of theat hand. I have wondered from the path of righteosness into the wilderness and am unable to find my way back. I am that sheep who has wondered to far from his master. Now I reside in the Wilderness.
Yea I am sure if God exisits he could do anything but that does not stop people loosing their way hence the Parable of the lost sheep. In many cases the good shepherd finds that lost sheep but other times maybe that sheep refuses to be found.
The other issue is I feel empty when I pray, I feel so alone. He does not reach out.
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Oooohhh great topic!
I believe in ghosts without any doubt whatsoever. Ive had 1st hand experience with them, well kind of ! LEt me tell you some stories.
Years ago when I was still a child and my nan was alive she would come to uor house for a visit and religiously sit in te same chair, every single time. It was her chair hehe. Anyway, nan had an aroma that was hers, must have been her purfume or washing powder etc. It was my nan's smell lol. She was also quite a large lady! Well unfortunately she became ill and eventually passed away and the whole family not long after her funeral were all in the living room. My brother happened to be sitting in nan's chair and after some time bolted off that chair, white as a ghost and shaking like a leaf. Eventually we got out of him that a really heavy weight was sat on him making it impossible to get off. Infact he was unable top breathe for the whole time. He even said he could smell nan. No doubt about it, nan came for a sit down.
The other experience I kind of had involved my mum who has a tendancy to see strange things. Anyway, she was stood at the sink washing up when to her left appeared a hand with a lacy sleeve. For a second or two she thought nothing of it becasue her husband was in the house. But the hand she said was very feminine and her hubby certainly didnt wear lacy clothing. She called out to him but he happened to be upstairs. Hmm, this freaked her out somewhat and she certainly is not crazy. It kind of makes sense becasue she told me that things turn themslelves on around the house, things go missing etc. I also used to notice that her bathroom used to be absolutely freezing which is one of the signs of a haunted room. I was active at the time and went to her house and everyone left me alone in their. Blimey I was a bit scared. I dedicated the home and in the middle of the prayer I had to stop for a second and look around becasue something was behind me, or atleast it felt like it. I carried on and finished up. Mum said the house felt great afterwards.
Now this final one is certainly strange and again involces mum. Not sure why these things happen to her.
Her last experience was when she was in hospital awaiting an appointment. She was in the clinic, totally alone. She fet really lonely and miserable, basically really down in the dumps. Then she was absolutely speechless by what she witnessed. She looked over at the wall opposite her and witnessed an absolutely beautiful figure, radiant and smiling at her. He had his hands clasped and was looking at her. The thing is this figure was really really tall and winged. The feeling she had was out of this world. I have been the only person she has spoken toabout this though becasue she thinks people would think her as loosing her mind.
Just 3 storeis for you.
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Perhaps it will be put to rest one person at a time. :)
And does the angels with swords thing really bother you??? I will tell you this, if God commanded me, he would need a sword to get me to obey!!!!!
Best wishes. Mike.
Yea it bothers me in bucket loads but thats just me! Purely becasue it sounds rediculously far fetched. As a result of that so called angel Jospeh married kids and took other mens wives. Please, how can that be a good? I fail to see.
I understand you all think he is a prophet and was an amazing guy. I think he was brilliant too but I also think he spun that story and started the whole poygamy thing to cover something up. I dont believe God had anything to do with it.
Maybe that angel did appear, maybe it was not from God? Another thought.
And onother thing, Polygamy is only one of the many reason that I have considered having my name removed and certainly not the sole reason.
Endowments vs. Masons
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
And you my friend do not have the faintest idea. That may be the case for some people but certainly not everyone.