mike_uk

And you my friend do not have the faintest idea. That may be the case for some people but certainly not everyone.

I just asked a question. Also, how do you know he commanded it?

A couple of examples of why i think people label us a cult: Temple ceremony. Then the accusations of brainwashing or mind control etc.

Interesting. Id like to know more of that evidence.

Im not making a song and dance about it. I just find what info we do have available very interesting.

So he just married her civily then? What purpose if it wasnt for eternity? Im not bitching I just dont understand the significance and why he did it.

Candy That is correct. I No longer believe him to be a prophet and that he restored the gospel. Being what I would consider 90% atheist now makes the atonement hard to accept now. Testimony? Hmmmm, nothing. It's a blunt answer I know but thats all I can say now.

Maybe someone can advise what the heck is going on here. How did Joseph marry Fanny Alger in April 1833 (the 19 year old nanny/housekeeper) when the sealing keys were not even restored yet? As we know those keys were supposedly restored by Elijah in 1836.

At this very moment in time I do doubt that but I started last night. I spoke to God and had to dig deep to start. I pleaded for him to help me remember him and invited christ to pull me up.

Sorry, it appeared the finger was pointed my way. Sorry, didnt mean to sound defenseive.

Funky Wow, funky are you sure you arent my wife posting anonmously? You hit the nail right on the head. Also I will seriously consider your challenge. I really will. I guess then that will prove to myslelf If I really do want to find Jesus again. Dont get me wrong but my whole body tingled when I read this (natural occurence!!!). Thank you Funky, you are really supportive even though my remarks can be offensive about stuff.

I think to be honest I have told my story often. You guys know so much more about my problems than most of my family/bishop friends do from past posts but I will explain again briefly. I never felt the spirit or anything remotely unexplainable but just accepted that the silly feelings like the hairs on the back of my neck standing up was maybe the spirit talking to me. Thats about it for spiritual experiences and its pathetic when I hear about others. Still I never doubted for many years, no reason to. I avoided all "anti" literature and stuff i did come across I shelved as being nonsese. Then I became fascinated by church history and stuck to church books and that lead me to further the investigations and gradually I learnt more and more about the early church until I built up a huge collection of "dirt". Then the more research I did the more of an effect it had on me. Temples and Masons, Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham which contains much of our doctrine, BoM problems, Kirtland Bank fiasco, Polygamy, double standards, racism, sexism, blood attonement, Mark Hoffman incident, church whitewashing etc. I studied myself away and concluded JS was a fraud and I got sucked in. I wont elaborate on these things becasue its all out there. So it went from believing but struggling to feel the spirit through my whole membership to a total disbelief in JS as being a prophet. So now I cannot believe in our doctrine becasue of the information I have and pondered. I will add that I kept this information to myself for a long time whilst still active and it has absolutely torn me to pieces physically. I'm a shadowof my former self Although I generally accepted the bible to be true some of the events like the Arc and flood etc I thought to be a myth but I have maintined until now atleast a beleif in God and Jesus since i can remember. It's actually very common for people to go through a total belief in something to see it all come crashing down to become atheist. However Im not there just yet. Does this help?

I know you are just mesing around but Im not out to win any arguemnts and if I was I could never win a damned thing on my articulate writing becasue I dont have the skills or the ability to do it as you can tell from my posts.

Keep saying this? Wild exageration from you there Vort. Its the 1st time I have ever said it and a rather pontless reply from you tbh.

Funky beat me to it and I was going to say the same thing. But yes its my opinion and one I share with many thousands of individuals both member and none member. This is a discussion board so im discussing.

Yes that could definately be true. Still I need an answer from him. I want to experience that feeling so many others have. It may not changemy mind about my opinions of JS but would help to know he's out there, thats for sure.

MissH Quite possibly yes. I know it will be hard to believe but I do want to believe and I do want to feel christ in my life. I do want to have a loving relationship where I can approach him and feel his love. I want to know him. I just feel I cannot now. Im so far down the road to atheism I am REALLY struggling to believe they are even out there. No amount of pleading and begging to feel his presence resulted in a damned thing. Ive said that often becasue its the truth. If he wants to make himself known in prayers or the scriptures then I just have to accept that if he is out there, he aint interested in me. I have to be honest with you all and I know you guys love the church and the faith you have but I wont get anything from it, its not for me even if it was true its standards are WAY above my abilities and its history too questionable now. None of it would ever feel right now I have gained this knowledge. I would always be questioning everything said and would land in trouble or cause offense etc. You know the more I consider my situation the more Im lead to writing that letter and requesting my name to be removed becasue then maybe I could find christ elsewhere. Christ without the complexities. Surely thats a better path than remaining 90% and counting atheist?

I can pretty much guarantee Emma knew nothing about many of these women. On August 18, 1842 Joseph wrote a letter to his plural wife, Elizabeth Ann, who was 17, and her parents. "I take this opportunity to communicate, some of my feelings, privetely, at this time, which I want you three eternaly to keep in your own bosams; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has pased lately between us. It would afford me great relief, of mind, if those with whom I am alied to love me, now is the time to afford me succour....The nights are very pleasand, indeed, all three of you can come and see me in the fore part of the night, let brother whitney come a little a head and knock at the south east corner of the house, at the window; it is next to the cornfield; I have a room entirely by myself, the whole matter can be attended to with the most perfect safety. The only thing to be careful of, is to find out when Emma comes, then you can not be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty..... ..I think Emma wont come tonight if she dont, dont fail to come to night." Clearly, Emma was not aware of his marriage to Sarah Ann. Joseph married seventeen year (why only younger women?) old Lucy Walker on May 1st, the day before Emma arrived on the Maid of Iowa. She later said about her marriage: "Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know any thing about it at all." Poor Emma really had a hard time of the whole Polygamy thing. A young woman from Carthage reported: My sister went into the hotel parlor....to await the call to breakfast. Ten or twelve young women were assembled here, laughing and talking. Mrs. Emma Smith presently joined them,a nd recognizing my sister, whom she had met before, entered into conversation with her. Upon my sister asking, "Mrs. Smith, where does your church get this doctrine of spiritual wives?" her face flushed scarlet, and her eyes blazed as she replied, "Straight from hell, madam." Inapropriate in your view not mine HiJolly.

Yes Ram I agree, God either coimmanded it or he didnt. Also Ram, thanks for trying to understand, its appreciated. Ive asked myself why he went through all he did many times in my struggles. Why would he? Was he so totally dillusional that he convinced himself he was who he was? It's not unheard of. I agree if God commanded it then I will shut up. However, I believe with my whole heart in this instnace he did not. I believe JS was caught in a situation he would rather have not been and conjured up this story about the angel. His many followers oviously believed him and would do anything he said. He used this story of death by sword to win these women over. Thats my theory. Ahhhhh I hate this. God is supposed to be all knowing, totally loving, kind etc yet he would command someone to do all these things or face death? Wow, real love shown there. An all knowing God would have known that many years later this practise would cause massive problems and spawn idiots like Warren Jeffs. Its not right and sorry I will never change my mind on this.

That makes me very uncomfortable and its been hard for me to swallow for years. I just tried to shelve that principal. Id rather not spend my eternities with a God who would force me into this practise. No thanks.

Ram, I understand your viewpoint. My problems are the inclusion of children, Polyandry, angel stories, doing it behind Emma's back etc. If he was commanded of God, Emma should have been told immediately. Maybe God if he was indeed kind and loving could have given her a revelation or popped down for a visit to inform as to what was about to happen. That poor woman.

You are right, it isnt any more far fetched than those incidents and they are probably myth also. You arent overlooking anything at all. I have always struggled with those stories. Especially the biggies like world flood, noah etc. I have heard it to be common to marry 14 year olds back then many times but my own none biased research tells a different story indeed. Yes it happened but not frequently. The vast majority of women back then married around 20. But, even if it was the norm, WHY was there a need to marry a child? Show me proof that it was acceptable and of the norm please. I think what they did was wrong and has effected us becasue of it we have the likes of Warren Jeffs. I saw a picture of him with a child draped around his neck kissing. Appaling. Yea too right it bothers me. Its probably beneficial for us all for me to move on from this topic becasue its plain that the whole thing disgusts me and the more we discuss it the more my anger grows. On to nice topics.

From a believers point of view I am lost. People here or lets call them the good shpherd have tried to find me by advising me and giving me a helping hand but I wont take hold of theat hand. I have wondered from the path of righteosness into the wilderness and am unable to find my way back. I am that sheep who has wondered to far from his master. Now I reside in the Wilderness. Yea I am sure if God exisits he could do anything but that does not stop people loosing their way hence the Parable of the lost sheep. In many cases the good shepherd finds that lost sheep but other times maybe that sheep refuses to be found. The other issue is I feel empty when I pray, I feel so alone. He does not reach out.

Oooohhh great topic! I believe in ghosts without any doubt whatsoever. Ive had 1st hand experience with them, well kind of ! LEt me tell you some stories. Years ago when I was still a child and my nan was alive she would come to uor house for a visit and religiously sit in te same chair, every single time. It was her chair hehe. Anyway, nan had an aroma that was hers, must have been her purfume or washing powder etc. It was my nan's smell lol. She was also quite a large lady! Well unfortunately she became ill and eventually passed away and the whole family not long after her funeral were all in the living room. My brother happened to be sitting in nan's chair and after some time bolted off that chair, white as a ghost and shaking like a leaf. Eventually we got out of him that a really heavy weight was sat on him making it impossible to get off. Infact he was unable top breathe for the whole time. He even said he could smell nan. No doubt about it, nan came for a sit down. The other experience I kind of had involved my mum who has a tendancy to see strange things. Anyway, she was stood at the sink washing up when to her left appeared a hand with a lacy sleeve. For a second or two she thought nothing of it becasue her husband was in the house. But the hand she said was very feminine and her hubby certainly didnt wear lacy clothing. She called out to him but he happened to be upstairs. Hmm, this freaked her out somewhat and she certainly is not crazy. It kind of makes sense becasue she told me that things turn themslelves on around the house, things go missing etc. I also used to notice that her bathroom used to be absolutely freezing which is one of the signs of a haunted room. I was active at the time and went to her house and everyone left me alone in their. Blimey I was a bit scared. I dedicated the home and in the middle of the prayer I had to stop for a second and look around becasue something was behind me, or atleast it felt like it. I carried on and finished up. Mum said the house felt great afterwards. Now this final one is certainly strange and again involces mum. Not sure why these things happen to her. Her last experience was when she was in hospital awaiting an appointment. She was in the clinic, totally alone. She fet really lonely and miserable, basically really down in the dumps. Then she was absolutely speechless by what she witnessed. She looked over at the wall opposite her and witnessed an absolutely beautiful figure, radiant and smiling at her. He had his hands clasped and was looking at her. The thing is this figure was really really tall and winged. The feeling she had was out of this world. I have been the only person she has spoken toabout this though becasue she thinks people would think her as loosing her mind. Just 3 storeis for you.

Yea it bothers me in bucket loads but thats just me! Purely becasue it sounds rediculously far fetched. As a result of that so called angel Jospeh married kids and took other mens wives. Please, how can that be a good? I fail to see. I understand you all think he is a prophet and was an amazing guy. I think he was brilliant too but I also think he spun that story and started the whole poygamy thing to cover something up. I dont believe God had anything to do with it. Maybe that angel did appear, maybe it was not from God? Another thought. And onother thing, Polygamy is only one of the many reason that I have considered having my name removed and certainly not the sole reason.