mike_uk

Unfortunately it's an issue that will never be put to rest. Angels with swords, 14 year old girls, marrying women already married etc. Hard to just ignore these things and move on personally. However, no point in flogging it ccontinually here. /signoff

Rough Stone Rolling is not Anti at all Bytor. Richard Bushman is possibly the greatest church historian alive and knows pretty much al there is to know about JS. Mr Bushman is still a member and still maintains his testimony regardless.

Ok fine. I also recommend people to read both sides of the argument.

No, of course you should not Rely on Mrs Brodie. I didn not even suggest that. I recommended a book about church history. What you are suggesting then is that Nibley has spoken so thats it. There are no other views to be had? Have you read it?

Of course, the church wont like it becasue it shows another side to JS monst wont know of. THat does not stop it being one of the finest biographies about JS available. The fact that Mrs Brodie had access to documents most people would not puts her in a good position. Im not surprised it was stated that the she used doubtful sources as that is always the view of the apologist. As for "Latter-day Saints who have correct knowledge of the history of Joseph Smith". They dont. The average LDS knows nothing of the events in these books.

Lets let people make up their own minds and not rely on the likes of Brother Nibley.

You may also be interested in "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn M Brodie. It's a fantastic read.

Polygamy is always going to be a big issue for the church and no amount of arguing is ever going to reach a position where it is understood or accepted by everyone, nothing at all. Many can accept it and many wont. Personally I will never accept it. I will have to find the source but there were some plural marriages performed without authorisation from JS/BY which resulted in excommunication.

I love my meat way too much to ever give it up. Always have done. Also, yes I do now enjoy my tea and coffee and the very occasinal beverage.

I should imagine that the majority of members would receive her well and hopefully ignore her past if she was genuine about her intentions to repent and leave her past behind. I once saw a "clean" documentary about her and was actually surprised how well she presented herself.

Candy I guess I am lost, gone and unreachable. You know, I guess it could look like im just pleading for sympathy or wanting people to feel sorry for me or just being a drama queen overexagerating my concerns. but Im not at all. I like this site whether a agree with what people say or not. Sometimes though I feel I need to mention things that the church do not and will not teach us. It upsets me when people mention an event when reliable evidence shows a different side of things. Not sure where Im going with this lol. Anyway, don't feel like you have to post just becasue! That said, Im happy that you like my posts which surprises me really as I thought most people here hate me for my negativity! I really think that when I was strong and very much active it would have made me so much more spiritual and stronger but it would not have changed the facts of history. Maybe it would have given me strength to brush them under the carpet or just shelve them. However, even the strongest of convictions can crumble and in many cases has done. According to Scientists, those strong spiritual witness's can be explained by natural occurences whether thats true or not is anybody's guess. The mind is a powerful thing. I think there could be elements of truth in this though. Maybe that is the reason some feel that witness and others dont. Maybe that is why we are counselled to bare a testimony to receive one etc. Do we just convince ourselves its true? Just some ideas I have had regarding my own problems and certainly not something I can say any more on really. Yes, the reason I started this thread is to see where you and I differ. What you guys felt and what I did not. Maybe an answer came my way many times by the frequency was so poor I was unable to hear it. Maybe. Some of you had profound experiences which are great and I feel that I got the wrong end of the stick there which I feel is unfair from a God that wanted me to come home and from a God who suppsoedly thinks of me as "a choice spirit who is both humble and teachable". Nobody should have to struggle if they try hard, nobody at all. I guess it all boils down to severe dissapointment, hurt and feel like I have been lied to. Most of the nice fluffy things the missionaries tought me that I believed is not how it really happened. Most wont agree with me and say something like "but does it matter?" Yes it matters to me a great deal and now my marriage is struggling becasue of it.

Thanks Funky for your thoughts and comments. I have been officially dissafected for 7-8 months now and semi active for maybe 2 years before that and NOT ONCE has the Bishop been to see me. I heard that he instead has tried to get the missionaires to come round instead and changed my home teachers to someone that basically insulted me a few months ago. Rather pointless and stupid idea becasue I dont want either to come round now. Don't get me wrong I love the missionaries and would still regularly feed them if we were allowed to but to be realistic they dont even know about most of my issues so cannot help. As for one half of the new HT companisonship. He just refused to listen to me and my points and ignored them asthough these things didnt happen. I cannot stand that. As for blessings. Cannot see the point as I dont believe in them after many many bad experiences with them. I have absolutley no testimony in the priesthood and that JS ever restored it. Even if I was to bite the bullet and have one my faith is so low at this point I would just doubt completely everything said. It's hard. I think its just time for me to accept I cannot change. Perhaps if I can accept this then maybe this deep dark hole I am in will get smaller so I can crawl out and move on with my life.

Candy Sorry, i missed these questions and will do my best to answer them openly and honestly but in a none offensive manner. Also I wont go into too much detail so not to be flamed becasue I cant be bothered arguing. Not sure where to start or how to comment on your requests without offending anyone really. Hmmm, I will try though. Regarding JS, well dont know where to start on this. He has a past most of us dont know about and IMO abused his power and deceived even his own wife often. I do know if it wasnt for him I would not be in this position. Sorry to sound harsh on this. The BoM imo and yes its my opinion so no need to jump down my throats if anyone feels like doing so but I believe that even though it contains some good principles its just cannot be true. I have mentioned why in the past and got flamed. If I leave where will I go? No idea but probably nowhere. I am really struggling to believe that there can be a god now. Things just dont make sense any longer. Crying out to him for comfort and receiving nothing really has not helped. But I want to believe in a God and have a relationship with him and Christ and im hanging onto what belief I do have with a thread and its getting harder every day. Fall into transgression? In the eyes of the church I have fallen into transgression already. I guess I can even be classed as an apsostate. I now drink tea, coffee and alcohol. The garments came off months ago. I openly admit to my beliefs when asked/challenged. I have contemplated expoloring other faiths but decided this would not be good for my children who are fully active. Its still an option though. My concerns run deep, far too much to go into here. If you wish for more specific information I will do so privately. I just dont want to cause resaon for arguments and debate publicly to be honest.

Funky Thanks for sharing your story. It always makes me sad hearig about those kind of upbringings. I feel so lucky that my parents rarely argued or fought. Overall prayer has been a massive letdown for me and I dont just mean Moroni's challenge. All my active church life has been wrought with dissapointment when it came to prayer. I remember once when going to the temple and realising that the Celestial Room would be the best place for me to feel the spirit and approach God about some issues I had. I truly believed that everything would be made right there and I would finally feel his presence or atleast something. I was truly excited and expected an answer, thus was my faith back then. Well I really worked hard in there and pleaded and you know where this is going. I felt nothing, nothing at all. This stayed the same the many times I attended afterwards. A whole life of trying but failing really does not help me off this road to Atheism.

I agree with Elphaba 100%. There is no way a kind loving God who wants all his childeren to accept the gospel would be made a to wait 10+ years for an answer. Many will just turn around and walk away. Again, no kind loving Heavenly Father who wants the whole world to come back to him would make it so hard to do so. If you accept the challenge Moroni sets with real intent then that answer should come shortly after, not 10+ years down the road. Thats my opinion on the matter. Mike

Oh my goodness. Some of you people need to stop repeating typical "TBM" answers over and over and over again. It does my head in. Please. try and be a little more open minded and not put everyone who leaves in your shoes. You just cannot see past your own testimonies, im sorry harsh words but its true. I remember sitting in church thinking to myself, "I could never ever leave this church". Now look where I am ladies and gentlemen. Yes im on the virge of leaving. I am sure you think "what sin is he carrying" etc etc. Im not. In a nutshell. I no longer believe Joseph Smith is or was a prophet of God becasue of my research. I dont believe God would warrant or allow his own prophet who he chose to restore his gospel to to some of the things he did. Now, becasue I dont beleive him to be a prophet I no longer believe the church to be true, it's that simple.

Sorry, thats nonsense. That may be the case for many but it is not the case for all so please don't judge.

Im not looking to flame or interfere with your experiences but I am interested to learn what you felt when you took Moroni's challenge to read and pray about the Book of Mormon, how it came to you and what you experienced etc? If you wouldnt mind sharing that we me It would be very much appreciated.

Yea thats right. People here by now know my problems and that I cannot accept certain things from the past. Others can just totaly shelve them and not be affected. We are all different.

Also, to clarify Joseph Smith taught that the celestial kingdom itself is subdivided into three "heavens or degrees". those individuals who are sealed in celestial marriage to a spouse in a temple while alive (or after death by proxy) will be permitted to enter into the highest degree of celestial kingdom. These individuals will eventually become "exalted" and will be permitted to live "the kind of life God lives"

Interesting article. I guess retention is always going to be tough for us. Converts come in and realise it's just so tough to live to the standards expected and just go. I have seen it so much in my time. Its been said here before but not everyone is mormon material.

I agree that trying to tear someones faith apart in such places as a fair is cruel. Personally when I was an active member and I was challenged by an inillectual in public I would back off rapidly. Some people just are not cut out to have a religious debate in public. Many people I know would just panic. But I know of people that could challenge a challenger as good as any man. I have a dear friend who many years ago was serving a building mission for the church. He tells a nice story of when he was digging a huge hole, infact he was down the hole when he noticed it got dark suddenly. He happened to look up and noticed he was totally surrounded by a mob of anti's. They gave him a hard time and he as a new convert seriously struggled in his answers. This mob was getting rather agressive at his lack of knowledge and all he could think of was to bare his testmony. The mob was unable to challenge this and dispersed. So i guess thats a good way of avoiding a debate.

I have no idea if Jospeph could have used this, I really don't and neither does anyone else. Its all speculation and theory. Evidence indicates that there is a good chance he had access to it though.

My quote was purely tongue in cheek when I wrote it. We have no way of knowing.

View of the Hebrews when I read it was boring I have to say but I did notice the parallels whether JS used them or not. It is also plausable the Joseph had the help of others in his writings. Just speculating and I have no grounds or evidence here. My own thoughts! I have noted the Parallels earlier in this thread.