mike_uk

I have gained new respect for everyone on this forum, even some that I thought I could potentially dislike and I salute you all in sticking to your beliefs. Generally typical LDS's..caring and overall considerate. Thank you.

Well its probably me you are aiming this at and im not bothered at all. They to me are demands. No need to feel uncomfortable if you dont struggle to carry this weight. :) Oh and I just dont believe that God runs all the progeammes of the church and the things we are supposed to do either so yes the church does demand much.

Some may ask me why I joined if i never received proper confirmation. Others may say I did infact get it from my comments that I will write. When I met my wife, I never knew she wa a Mormon and was only a little dissapointed to find out she was. I say a little becasue I knew nothing about them but it sounded weird if you know what i mean? Anyway, as our relationship developed including her family and friends I began to learn a little more about the church, never intending to go any further than curiousity only. However, one day she informed me that she had decided that she wanted to go and do a temple service mission which devastated me, it really did! I wondered why someone would just get up and go, leaving me not being able to see her. I needed to understand why anyone would do such a thing so I agreed to take the missionary discussions just to find out about the church. Well, I was "comfortable" with much of what they were telling me. I was. I like the sound of Eternal Marriage" and one thing lead to another. I read many church leaflets about the 1st vision and being very open minded believed them. My prayers regarding the church still felt positively empty though. Still, after a fairly long period I decided to get baptized. I just assumed as i progressed the anser that it really was true would come along. I read the BoM from cover to cover and took the challenge. The answer never came. Well I took to it like a duck to water and got stuck right in whilst my girlfriend (now wife) was away in the London Temple. Every day was really hard for me and i missed her terribly but I was now involved in what she believed so it was a little easier to bare. I guess, I just wanted to believe it to be true so much I convinced myself it was. I conditioned my mind to just accept it. So now I was never converted spiritually even though I thought I believed. My wife is a lifelong member and attends every single week without fail. She is one of the most dilligent, caring people I know and she will do anything for anyone. She has never actually received a strong spiritual witness but still says she believes. I respec her totally. My childeren are too young to undestand these things fully but do ask me questions about why I no longer attend. No, my life is now far from that of a faithful LDS. VERY FAR. I have packed my garment away, disregard the word of wisdom. Id just as well get my name removed. Anyway, please no need to involve me in your prayers as nothing will come of it but I thank you so much for your sincere thoughts and care and your willingness to do this for me. Fasting and Prayer were very much a common thing for me but nothing ever came from my efforts involving fasting and prayer. Sorry, as for baring my testimony....I really struggle with the theory of baring atestimony to game testimony. IMO all that is that eventually you will convince yourself you have one. Blessings again wont help me. I have had bad experiences with them. Every blessing I have had say the same things. Most of the blessing I have received all tell me that "the lord blesses me with good health and is pleased with the way I have conducted my life". My health is awful and the way I live would not please the Lord. So there you have it Again thanks for your concerns.

Bytor, you appear to be a decent, understanding person, so thank you. I agree, much of it is alleged but equally much of it is not alleged. Tha MAIN reasons are all very much well documented and valid and for the life of me I cannot accept them as being direct commandments from God, I just cannot sorry. I try to counter balance my negativity with reading LDS scholary materials from FAIR etc but its not enough. I have dug far too deep into the life of Jospeph and the early history and it just does not add up IMO. Living the life of a mormon from a warm fluffy feeling to me now is not something I can do. Having said that, I never did receive that warm fluffy feeling which adds to the dilemma. Living the standards and carrying the guilt from the things I Was not doing, trying to do all the things expected of me, being told what to think, what to say, what to watch, what to wear, what to eat and drink, or who my friends should be, how I should spend my time. Forcing me to visit people every month that really didnt want visits, reading 2-3 lesson every week along with the scriptures. Whats more, visiting the temple (I hated it) every month, attending sunday and midweek meeting religiously, spending time away from our families every week doing callings etc. Then there is the guilt from not doing my geneology and expected to be judged harshly becasue of my waiting ancestors and on top of this having to work hard to provide for my family, teach them the gospel and raise them to be good LDS. I just cant take it, far too much is expected from us just to get back to a so called loving Heavenly Father. Would any father place so much burden on their children? I agree with something Rameupton wrote in that not everyone is LDS material. Infact I believe very few are. Which raises the question "why would God who wants us all to come home to him make it so damned tough to get there"? I tried so hard to love the temple but it never came. The 1st time made me ill but I went back the next day to try and get over the shock. I attended most months for years eventually getting over the hatred of the temple but I always felt uncomfortable in their and never felt the spirit. At one stage my BP was trying his hardest toencourage me to become a veil worker becasue of my attendance. Now after learning about the masonic similarities its even more evidence, again IMO that is all too convenient. Sorry. My knowledge of doctrie is fine. Atleast I think so. I have learnt a lot from teaching gospel doctrine, giving sacrament talks most months, teaching youth. When active I just accepted it but now it's hard to, especially now and the realisation that much of our doctrine comes from the Book of Abraham which I believe to be hoax. So, as you can see there is no going back now. Too late for me.

Jim, you are only standing up for what you believe in so dont worry about it.

I dont need an excuse to leave the church to be honest. If I was single, childless I would go. But for the sake of my family who I love I remain a member. I do agree with you on some of these things about God allowing these attrocities and evil men to do their thing but if we go by church teachings on "free agency" then its differnet. God maybe cannot interfere. However, Jospeh was his prophet whereas Hitler was not. If Jospeh had not devised a rediculous story about an angel with a flaming sword threatening to destroy him my issue on this would be smaller. I dunno, the more I contemplate this stuff the more I question whether there realy is a God afteral. I have become obsessed with church history that I do know.

I wondered who would be the 1st person to mention that hehe. Good job he had Oliver to do the writing and ensure the grammar was up to scratch.

That book you refer to is View of the Hebrews is an 1823 book written by Ethan Smith. There are parallels between the Book of Mormon and View of the Hewbrews. * extensive quotation from the prophecies of Isaiah in the Old Testament * the Israelite origin of the American Indian * the future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Ten Lost Tribes * the peopling of the New World from the Old via a long journey northward which encountered "seas" of "many waters" * a religious motive for the migration * the division of the migrants into civilized and uncivilized groups with long wars between them and the eventual destruction of the civilized by the uncivilized * the assumption that all native peoples were descended from Israelites and their languages from Hebrew * the burial of a "lost book" with "yellow leaves" * the description of extensive military fortifications with military observatories or "watch towers" overlooking them * a change from monarchy to republican forms of government * the preaching of the gospel in ancient America.[12]

What drives me absolutely insane is that some people are too quick to say that people use the church history as an excuse to get out. So tired of hearing that lame answer. People can be truly offended by what they uncover. I was, although I have not yet left. Oh and bytor, i like your list. If I do ever have my name removed it will be mainly because: The church's history. I cannot ever accept that to be from God. The burden of being a mormon. Or as bytor said "The impossible standards". The Temple. Some Doctrinal issues.

I have not touched on it but the other big problem for me is the deception involved in Joseph not telling poor Emma about many of his marriages. One such example is A letter from Joseph Smith to Newel K. Whitney's daughter which reads PAGE TWO LINE TEXT 1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying 2 any such thing, to you, for I know the 3 goodness of your hearts, and that you 4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is 5 made known to you; the only thing 6 to be careful of, is to find out when 7 Emma comes then you cannot be 8 Safe, but when She is not here, there 9 is the most perfect Safty: only be 10 careful to escape observation, as 11 much as possible, I know it is a 12 heroick undertaking; but so much 13 the greater friendship, and the more will 14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all 15 my plans, I cannot write them on 16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you 17 read it; keep all locked up in 18 your breasts, my life depends up- 19 -on it. one thing I want to see you to 20 for is ^ git the fulness of my blessing 21 Sealed upon our heads, &c. you 22 will pardon me for my ernest- this subject 23 -ness on ^ when you consider how 24 lonesome I must be, your good make 25 feelings know how to ^ every allow 26 -ance for me, I close my letter. 27 I think Emma wont come tonight 28 if she dont dont fail to come to 29 night, I subscribe myself your and 30 most obedient, ^ affectionate, 31 Companion, and friend. 32 Joseph Smith The letter and signature are in the handwriting of Joseph Smith. Make of it what you will, maybe its false but its interesting nonetheless.

I agree that maybe these things should not be talked about specifically during investigation but should be discussed openly and honestly at some stage. The church need to face their demons and not whitewash them imo. If those things from the past arent important then why are they so bothered about discussing them? Yes the information is available on websites and books but you have to dig for it. Its hard to hear it from others, who are not even members. I am a Network Engineeer and have been using the Internet for a long time but had no reason to go looking for dirt. Even when I did find information accidentally I was so well conditioned I just ignored most of it thinking it was all made up by anti mormons without realising most anti mormon litereature is stuff from our history anyway. I sit in Priesthood class discussing lessons on eternal marriage and how much Joseph loved his wife. Which one? I never knew he had others until fairly recently. The church will not discuss it and they should, afterall its a huge part of our history. For instance the disclaimer in Teachings For Our Day says This book deals with teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that have application to our day. For example, this book does not discuss such topics as the Prophet's teachings regarding the law of consecration as applied to stewardship of property. The Lord withdrew this law from the Church because the Saints were not prepared to live it (see D&C 119, section heading). This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime. Over the next several decades, under the direction of the Church Presidents who succeeded Joseph Smith, a significant number of Church members entered into plural marriages. In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto, which discontinued plural marriage in the Church (See Official Declaration 1). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer practices plural marriage. Maybe Polygamy is not practised by us any longer but it is rude and arrogant to ignore them. There are faithful, dilligent members, maybe some even post here that are descendants from a Polygamus marriage. I just wish the 1st Presidency would just address these things and show us they arent bothered by the past. It wont happen though.

This whole Polygamy/Polyandry thing is hard to swollow I know, took me a while but it happened and we cannot pretend it did not. Im not here to harm anyones testimony and I am sure others are not too but we have a right to know what happened in the past regarding the leaders of our church. The church iteself wont teach it to us, especially matters of Polygamy/Polyandry.

Hi Jim Im not against the saints as people as I have said previously. If I did I would have serious problems and probably divorce. Not to mention lack of friends :) My problems are not the members, most I know are awesome people and would drop everything to help at a moments notice. Most are genuinely christ like people and care for me no matter what I feel about the church. I really mean that Jim. Have you actually researched this stuff for yourself. Scrutinized it as we have been advised to by the prophets of old? Perhaps you should to get a better picture as to why I and others have come to these conclusions and find it so hard to accept. You know guys, I never set out to destroy my faith on purpose, had no need to as I was more than happy. However one thing lead to another, I built up a hefty amount of evidence and a whole host of skeletons and I peronally cannot ignore it and hope it goes away becasue it won't. But what I do know is that somehow I will have to move on and let go becasue this whole thing is destroying me and I am unable to let it go. I have destroyed my wifes teenage dream of marrying a good LDS priesthood holder that will take her back to heavenly father. Ive broken her heart along with my 7 year old daughter when I told her last weak that I would not be able to baptise her, dam that hurt so much. I wanted to just die when she reminded when, trying to hold back her tears "that you baptised (eldest daughter) last year". No matter what people say to me, I blame Joseph Smith for this hurt. Sorry for the rant everyone. Its just whats going on with me

My wife tells me it's shrinking for various reasons.

Jim, its really not that simple. There was a time when i believed Joseph to be a prophet of God. However my own research through early church history really sent my world crashing down and truth be told I have not got over it. The church was my life. With this new found knowledge I pleaded with Heavenly Father if Jospeh was indeed a prophet. All I felt was emptiness, dispair and darkness leading me to one conclusion and that is "imo" he cannot be a prophet. Some of us here have and can hadle this information and just pretend it never happened or that we dont fully understand or that it was just made up trash to spoil Jospeh's name. But a great deal of it isnt lies or slander and I cannot see how I could possibly change my mind or be convinced otherwise about how I feel about Joseph. Should I just pretend they never happened to or brush them under a carpet? I for one cannot accept the things he did as commandments from god. If you can and it makes you happy then more power to you.

People say it was not a big deal if he consumated his marriages to his other wives, not a big deal in itself but evidence shows he married other men's wives. If he then has sex with these married women isnt that classed as adultery?

Yea we can argue until the cows come home on whether he had children or sex with his wives but none of us were there to know for sure. Yes, I have read accounts from some of his wives that would indicate he had sexual relations with them but it cannot be 100% proved.

Sorry, Im not convinced. It appears that quote you have given was stated before the visit from the angel. "When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine." - Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29 This same account was related to other individuals: "Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him." - Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903 "I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him." - Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts "His brother, Hyrum, said to me, "Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law." He told my sister to have no fears, and he there and then sealed my sister, Almira, to the Prophet." "Soon after this he was at my house again, where he occupied my Sister Almira's room and bed, and also asked me for my youngest sister, Esther M. I told him she was promised in marriage to my wife's brother. He said, "Well, let them marry, for it will all come right."" - Joseph Smith's personal secretary and church patriarch, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review "19 year-old Zina remained conflicted until a day in October, apparently, when Joseph sent [her older brother] Dimick to her with a message: an angel with a drawn sword had stood over Smith and told him that if he did not establish polygamy, he would lose "his position and his life." Zina, faced with the responsibility for his position as prophet, and even perhaps his life, finally acquiesced." (In Sacred Loneliness, page 80-81) Why would he relate this story if this is not the case?

Sorry Hemi that is not correct. The following are words from Lorenzo Snow and is just one example I can provide. "The Prophet Joseph Smith there and then explained to me the doctrine of plurality of wives; he said that the Lord had revealed it unto him, and commanded him to have women sealed to him as wives; that he foresaw the trouble that would follow, and sought to turn away from the commandment; that an angel from heaven then appeared before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obey the commandment." "He further said that my sister, Eliza R. Snow, had been sealed to him as his wife for time and eternity. He told me that the Lord would open the way, and I should have women sealed to me as wives. This conversation was prolonged, I think, one hour or more, in which he told me many important things." "I solemnly declare before God and holy angels, and as I hope to come forth in the morning of the resurrection, that the above statement is true." - Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, sworn affidavit.

Yes, it has been stated that an angel appeared to Joseph.

I have indirectly been labelled an "anti" on this board bacause of my own opinions and beliefs regarding the church and Jospeph. Yes, they are negative and can be offensive to a believer but I feel hurt and angry at times. Still I am not anti at all. I certainly dont go preaching anti stuff here. Yes I do mention my own concerns but thats it. Most members I know are amazing, kind people that I love. I am still a member but not a believer at all now. I have been asked why I visit LDS boards and comment etc. Well I certainly dont come here to dent people's testimony. No thats never my intention. I come here becasue the church is still very much part of my life. My wife and 3 kids are fully active and love church. Most of my friends are fully believing active members. All of my wifes sisters and their husbands and children are fully active members. As are her mum and dad. I even attend once a month to help my wife with the kids in Sacrament but stay for SS and Priesthood. Most "anti's" wouldnt do that. People just need to be careful not to label everyone that no longer believs an "anti".

Yep, if the book is of God then the only wittness I will need is his own. I took up the challenge to pray and ask, i did with so much sincerity I almost exploded. I approached God so many times in prayer throughout all my years of activity but it never came. For years I thought it was me possibly being unworthy or something. I just don't know. I have mentioned elsewhere that I even took it upon myself to attend BoM class's run in our Ward. I have taught Gospel Doctrine to the adults from it, taught our young men and women for years and nothing. Then I look at all the times I have prayed, individually, as a family group and in my various church callings and assignments for specific reasons, some for advice, some more serious in nature and some just trivial and wonder why I have never felt anything. Sitting in fast and testimony times and time again watching people sobbing their hearts out becasue of the amazing spiritual experiences they have had, the overwhelming anwsers to prayers etc. Very tough. Sorry, not sure where im going with this, Just wanted to say I tried and the answer never came.

I wish it was that simple. As stated in another thread I never got my witness of the truthfulness of the BoM, never. Not everyone does. My wife, a lifelong member has never either but she just accepts it and hopes her witness will come some day. However, regardless of that and my feelings toward the church there are still some fine principles in the BoM.

When I was fully active I tried my hardest to share the gospel message with those around me, especially my family and close friends and you know what most of them just laughed at me and called me crazy, especially regarding Joseph's vision. Many of them after the laughter said religion is "old fashioned" and not needed.

It's certainly an interesting discovery. So far my research has unearthed valid evidence but equally, research that disproves it. At this stage I am on the fence regarding this piece of evidence.