Athanasias

Beleive me there are a ton of anti-Catholic organizations and websites out their trying to snatch Catholics from their church too. Most southern baptist tend to be anti-Catholic( I used to date one).

Yes actually this is what the Catholic church teaches and it is also what i was taught when I was in school by the same catechism. Baptism itself gives us initial salvation(1 Peter 3:21), Regenerates our souls(Titus 3:5-7) and washes away our sins(Acts 22:16) and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit(Ez 36:25-27, Acts 2:38-29). Confirmation is yet another more profound conferring of the Holy Spirit(by the laying on of hands and anointing with oil and prayer) to strengthen you in your faith and fortify you in your baptism. It completes what began in baptism. We beleive confirmation is like Pentecost for the adult believer. Yet we also teach that one initially receives the Holy Spirit in baptism. I hope that helps! thanks for clarifying to me your guys position. God bless you!

OK so the difference between us then is that we Catholics view the gift of the Holy Ghost the third person of the Trinity as something free that we do not work for but are given at the Sacrament of water baptism which to us confers the gift of the Holy Spirit to us(Ezekiel 36:25-27 Acts 2:38-39) and regenerates us in water baptism(Titus 3:5-7). And you guys do not.

Ok so the we both believe that the Holy spirit is the one who regenerates. Cool! Our differences would be that we Catholics beleive that the Holy Spirit is present in sacramental water baptism(Predicted formally by the prophet Ezekiel (Ezekeil 36:25-27-and fulfilled in Acts 2:38-39) and you guys do not. Is this correct?

I can understand I think. We Catholics beleive that when we are baptized with water the Holy Spirit acts through that water to regenerate us. Hence to us the very sacrament of sacramental water baptism itself regenerates. Is this also your understanding?

Thanks for your explanation. Judging by what you said I assume that baptismal regeneration is not a teaching of LDS. God bless you always!

Thanks that was pretty helpful. But I am a little confused. You say that baptism is given for the remission of sins as a pre-requeset for receiving the Holy Spirit. I am a little confused. If you do not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism then how are your sins washed away? Or maybe I am misunderstanding. However what you described in the second part sounds like baptismal regeneration t me. Am I right?

It means that through the sacrament of baptism itself God regenerates your soul and makes it new and sanctified.

Do LDS believe in baptismal regeneration? Just curious? Thanks and God bless you!

Thanks for your query, Sorry you take this so offensively. I meant no offense to you. But I had to be truthful and straight with you about our beliefs before we can enter into ecumenical dialog. I was just laying down the principles in Catholic and Christian theology for this doctrine. I will not debate this with you or anyone else. But since you ask a question i will answer that question. The Trinity was revealed by God in scripture implicitly and apostolic oral tradition explicitly. Like all dogma's the Holy Spirit gave the church a deeper and deeper understanding of this revealed truth as found in scripture and tradition in the years that went on until the councils formally defined it. That is how Catholics ands most protestants also see it. I hope that helps. Again I will not debate you on this. Nor will debate anyone on this. I was just trying to stick to the principles of Christian and Catholic theology when explaining how we determine who is truly Christian and who is not. May God richly bless you always In Christ the King through Mary Immaculate, Athanasias

This is a good point. Is the error forgivable? Well it depends on what you mean by forgivable. We cannot ultimately judge anybodies eternal soul. Jesus told us not to. God will judge that. However we can judge doctrine that may lead souls astray. St. Paul was very clear that proper doctrine is important to salvation, especially when it comes to knowing who God is. We need know who God revealed himself to be. I would handle the problem of modalist and Tritheist ( early heresies) the same as the early Church would, I would correct those opinions as the ecumenical counsels did. Gods nature is a very serious thing. That is why several Church counsels were held to deal with it. Church counsels do not get called for minor reasons. Remember the first Church councils of Jerusalem in Act 15. I bet some might have said "well it doesn't matter if the person was circumcised or not before becoming a Christian" yet it was important enough for the church to come to gather in counsel and decide. When the Church proclaimed that one does not need to be circumcised to be Christian it became doctrine and this decision was guided by the Holy Spirit(Act 15:28). Now afterward there was still a problem historically with those who denied the apostles teaching. Certain heretics (judiazers) were still teaching that you must obey the mosaic law before you become Christian. Did St. Paul just say "Well were all Christians with different opinions?" No he did not! Paul called the Judaisers on their heresy and corrected them in the book of Galatians and Romans. Paul reprimanded them saying they are preaching a different gospel and Christ(Gal 1:6-9). We would say the same thing. We Believe, along with the majority of Christendom that those counsels and their decisions were guided by the Holy Spirit as the church is(Jn 16:12-14) when proclaiming the dogmas of truth in counsel just like Acts 15. So to us it is a "Thus saith the Lord"just like in the book of acts. Since the early Counsels hammered out the question of the nature of God and condemned the heresies that taught the opposite view and since the early Christian counsels did not consider the modalist and trithiest true Christians then we cannot either. We then believe that God revealed his nature to us in a infallible way through the counsels. For someone to not believe in the counsels decision would be just as bad as those judaizers who rejected the apostles decsion in the councils of acts. To reject the teaching then of the counsel to us would be like slapping Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the face and rejecting his revelation of who he is. So this is why we cannot call others Christians who do not beleive in the same Jesus or God. It is just a basic, logical, and historical theological principle we cannot avoid. Now this is not to say that I can judge somebody souls. I believe as my church does that if a person is invincibly ignorant through no fault of their own then the Lord may have mercy on them and they may get to heaven as God will se what is in their heart, but they only get to heaven by the real Jesus, the second person of the blessed Trinity not a false Jesus even if they do not realize it. So I am not saying that I am better than they are. But I would say as my Church has that Christ calls all to know him personally as the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Christ calls us to know God as the Holy Trinity. It is part of his mystery revealed to us out of love. He reveal this to us in time so we could understand him, salvation, and love him and each other more. But I can say as the Church has for centuries that those who deny this teaching are not true Christians in the formal sense because they do not hold to the revealed Trinitarian truth given by Christ Church. I am again not trying to debate at all. I will not debate this with anyone. This board is not a debate board. I respect that. I also am not trying to insult or disrespect anyone. Nor Am I pointing the finger to any one person or denomination or Church. I am using truthful Catholic principles when dealing with this issue. I am very ecumenical and am on the ecumenical board in my diocese. My Church is very ecumenical. But in oder to have true ecumenism one must first lay down truthfully what ones faith teaches in a honest manner. Then after both sides lay down the official teachings then one can start to work on similarities and difference's. But I am just trying to lay down the theological principles that the early Christian Church and almost all Christian chruches use when dealing with this question. Again I am not going to debate anyone on this issue not am I trying to. I just wanted to give the rest of you a honest understanding of where my Church and others are coming from, from a theological perspective. Thanks Prison Chaplain. Gods bless you! In Christ the King through Mary Immaculate, Athanasias

Thanks for your input Carol. BTY I love your name JPII was named Carol too! I am here to learn too. If you read my post you know that I was not trying to debate at all. I was just presenting the Catholic theological understanding of what makes a person Christian. I am part of the ecumenical movement of the church but part of that movement also involves telling other where we catholics officially stand on important issues so in that way true ecumenical dialgue and understadning by both parties can began. The word Trinity is not in the bible but then again why should it be? The concept is there, It is in the early apostolic tradition of the church which is also the word of God and defined by infallible Councils. So we as Catholics should believe it. I hope you realize that I was jsut giving a honest Catholic theological view. I appreciate your input and I wish the best of luck to you. God bless you always. In Jesus through Mary Athanasias

Thanks for your thoughts my friend. Well even if you beleive the opposite at least you see my point that are false christians and not all can be real ones. Please do not take this personally I did not try to point the finger at any one denomination or person. I wish to debate no one hear so I will not get involved with a debate with you over this issue. I was just showing the that there are basic principles to Christian theology that show that just because someone says they believe in Jesus as savior does not necessitate that they are truly Christian. As a Catholic theology student I would politely dissagree with you over the historical, biblical, and miraclulous evidence for the blessed Trinity but I wish to debate no one on these forums. I was just giving mine and my churches theological opinion on this issue as well as the majority of Churches. Please have a blessed day and God bless you always! In Jesus through Mary, Athanasias

I believe very much in ecumenical talks and practices as they are good and produce good fruits. As a theology major i would say the question about whether one is a Christian or not is a bit more complicated though. Here is a example; In one sense we could say someone even a non-Christian is Christian in their heart and intention if they sincerely try their best to beleive whatever Jesus they are taught and have never got to hear about or articulate the real Jesus. Their desire to serve God and Jesus is a good thing and therefore they are Christian by intention but not in a real actual or formal way. A good example. Lets say a person believed in Jesus and they called themselves a Christian because they believed in Jesus. Does this make them Christian? It depends. If the Jesus they believe in is God the Son, the second person of the blessed Trinity then yes. But if the Jesus they trusted in is just a Angel or a mere human or just "a" God or a magical donut etc. then no they would not be. Why would this be? Well it is based on the theological principle that in order to be a Christian one must follow the True Christ. St. Paul talks about many who are deceived by false Christ. They simply are not Christian in the real sense since they follow a false Christ. They may have good hearts and good intentions and God may be merciful to them because of their ignorance but in reality they followed a false Christ. I am not pointing the finger at any one Church or denomination nor am I trying to debate here. I am just showing that theologically this issue has principles that are logical and need to be met before a person can really claim he or she is Christian in the truest sense even if they claim to love Jesus as savior.

Cool. God bless you!