eleigh1977

Thanks for the articles and thoughts...the talk went very well.

Thanks...I've done that all ready, and it's nothing we haven't heard before. I suppose I would just like a new spin. Oh well.....ty!

I was asked to speak on this topic, this coming Sunday. I got nothing! I have had thoughts to mull over, and I have read some scriptures and plan to read some older Ensign articles....but really, all I have is that it's one of the best ways to bond and unite a family. Other than that I have nothing! I have to fill 16 minutes, and I have one thought. So I thought I'd come read your thoughts about family prayer...ideas and such. PLEASE post soon, so I can start forming something valuable to share. I am not interested in being a lame speaker! Thanks in advance for all of your help and/or insights.

I have a headache.

Happy Christmas Eve to All! Biz.... I couldn't have said it better myself.

I can only speculate based on things I have read in the past...but from what I understand and what I have read...Emma denied JS ever was 'married' to anyone else. Our RLDS counter parts should be able to help me out w/ that one...as they maintain, last I checked, in their history Emma saying JS never was sealed or married to anyone else. JS however was married to quite a few other women. The church used to have his lineage up on one of the ancestry sites, but took it down years ago. Some of those women were still married to other men, when he married them. Some were only 14 at the time of the marriage. We know BY hated Emma...she did not like him....I believe it was sincerely over the issue of plural wives. She did not like it. I believe Oliver Cowdery left the church over it. I do....it is the only thing that logically makes sense after everything he and Joseph had been through. I don't know much about spiritual wivery, except that I have heard a lot of people w/ in the church use it to explain why JS (along w/ other higher up LDS men), was sealed to something like 14 women...after his death most of those women were sealed to someone else in the quorum.....why would there be a need if they were all ready sealed to JS? If it was just a spiritual wivery thing, why weren't the women he was sealed to who were all ready married allowed to stay w/ their husbands? So many questions.... Most of this could have been found online a few years back at PRO LDS sites...but the church has obviously taken control of that. In fact the only reason I even know JS had 14 wives is that I found his family pedigree on a genealogy site...which has since been taken down. It was then I started doing a bit of research and talking to other people who had done far more than me. I dont' know if Emma just made herself believe JS was never married to anyone else....because on paper, her was. She however always denied it. JS always said he would go to hell and back for her....and I believe it is because polygamy is something she never agreed with. It's the only thing, that I can find, that between the lines of study...she had a problem with. Of course I maintain these are my thoughts and developing opinions....they are always subject to change....and I am willing to admit I could be wrong.

Jason, thanks for mentioning that fact. I think a lot of LDS people use the 'choice' factor to give themselves comfort. Many women HATED polygamy, most were merely teenage girls who had no idea of what it would truly entail once they were married. Emma was a very strong opponent of it. I, like her, would have thrown women out of my house. She denied Joseph had any other wife her entire life, because she made sure there wasn't. It is a HUGE myth that women had the choice to tell their husbands no they didn't want to go into a polygamous relationship. IF the husband did...the wife had no choice. It's that simple. (now I realize this probably wasn't the case for every single polygamous relationship.....but certainly a great part of them.) It is why BY and Emma could not stand each other. I think Oliver Cowdery left the church over it, for me it's the only logical explanation, since he was such a good and intelligent man. He came back, granted....but the reason he left has never really been talked about among the members. Now I do believe JS was a prophet. I am not sure however, that Polygamy was truly meant for this life. I don't know if it was a mistake in 'revelation' or not, since JS had all ready married a couple women before the official proclomation. There was a lot of denial going on for a while. I don't know how much it had to do w/ spiritual wivery though...I don't know if JS was 'married' in the sense...but it was taught that women who were sealed to men higher up in the church, calling wise would get into the CK. This could explain why women all ready hitched were sealed to Prophets and apostles. Again...it's something I have been studying for a good three years...because it's fascinating. Interesting stuff...that is rarely talked about. :-) Yes, even knowing this I still believe in the path and journey of the church.... If you want to see how Polygamy works....just take a look at the modern day practices of it....it is nothing but oppressive and I don't think it could work in this life, ever. I don't know if it was ever to have supposed to have been. Don't worry I am working out my own opinions...I don't hate JS or any other prophet...I just seek to understand this idea.

Scott...I agree with you, in that it is a time for families. Whatever religion or holiday you celebrate this time of year...it comes back to family. Whatever your belief system, whether or not you believe in god/many gods/goddesses...whatever... This time brings us back to our most basic and most needed unit, our families. For some it's their natural family....for others it is the family they have made for themselves. My husband and I agree on one thing, that we KNOW for sure this life is about learning to function in a family...and not just to be, but to be WELL in a family. I think for most people that is the hardest test and challenge they face, along w/ facing ourselves as individuals. I use the Holidays for that connection and I choose to celebrate Christmas in the way I've come to believe, because I believe in tradition and continuity.

I adore Robert Frost. I could easily post all of his works...but I just re read this poem not too long ago. ________________________________________________________________ Robert Frost (1874–1963). A Boy’s Will. 1915. 22. The Trial by Existence EVEN the bravest that are slain Shall not dissemble their surprise On waking to find valor reign, Even as on earth, in paradise; And where they sought without the sword 5 Wide fields of asphodel fore’er, To find that the utmost reward Of daring should be still to dare. The light of heaven falls whole and white And is not shattered into dyes, 10 The light for ever is morning light; The hills are verdured pasture-wise; The angel hosts with freshness go, And seek with laughter what to brave;— And binding all is the hushed snow 15 Of the far-distant breaking wave. And from a cliff-top is proclaimed The gathering of the souls for birth, The trial by existence named, The obscuration upon earth. 20 And the slant spirits trooping by In streams and cross- and counter-streams Can but give ear to that sweet cry For its suggestion of what dreams! And the more loitering are turned 25 To view once more the sacrifice Of those who for some good discerned Will gladly give up paradise. And a white shimmering concourse rolls Toward the throne to witness there 30 The speeding of devoted souls Which God makes his especial care. And none are taken but who will, Having first heard the life read out That opens earthward, good and ill, 35 Beyond the shadow of a doubt; And very beautifully God limns, And tenderly, life’s little dream, But naught extenuates or dims, Setting the thing that is supreme. 40 Nor is there wanting in the press Some spirit to stand simply forth, Heroic in its nakedness, Against the uttermost of earth. The tale of earth’s unhonored things 45 Sounds nobler there than ’neath the sun; And the mind whirls and the heart sings, And a shout greets the daring one. But always God speaks at the end: ’One thought in agony of strife 50 The bravest would have by for friend, The memory that he chose the life; But the pure fate to which you go Admits no memory of choice, Or the woe were not earthly woe 55 To which you give the assenting voice.’ And so the choice must be again, But the last choice is still the same; And the awe passes wonder then, And a hush falls for all acclaim. 60 And God has taken a flower of gold And broken it, and used therefrom The mystic link to bind and hold Spirit to matter till death come. ‘Tis of the essence of life here, 65 Though we choose greatly, still to lack The lasting memory at all clear, That life has for us on the wrack Nothing but what we somehow chose; Thus are we wholly stripped of pride 70 In the pain that has but one close, Bearing it crushed and mystified.

Pushka, every time I have tried to connect, It says internal server error. :-)

Oooh good thread! James Blunt's CD, Back to Bedlam is my favorite of 2005. I just adore it. I love all the lyrics, but I'll post Tears and Rain: "Tears And Rain" © James Blunt How I wish I could surrender my soul; Shed the clothes that become my skin; See the liar that burns within my needing. How I wish I'd chosen darkness from cold. How I wish I had screamed out loud, Instead I've found no meaning. I guess it's time I run far, far away; find comfort in pain, All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble. Hides my true shape, like Dorian Gray. I've heard what they say, but I'm not here for trouble. It's more than just words: it's just tears and rain. How I wish I could walk through the doors of my mind; Hold memory close at hand, Help me understand the years. How I wish I could choose between Heaven and Hell. How I wish I would save my soul. I'm so cold from fear. I guess it's time I run far, far away; find comfort in pain, All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble. Hides my true shape, like Dorian Gray. I've heard what they say, but I'm not here for trouble. Far, far away; find comfort in pain. All pleasure's the same: it just keeps me from trouble. It's more than just words: it's just tears and rain. THEN my next favorite song is by Daniel Powter...and I haven't seen his CD out anywhere yet....but I found his website and hear this song a lot on my favorite radio station.... DANIEL POWTER --Bad Day Where is the moment we needed the most You kick up the leaves and the magic is lost They tell me your blue skies fade to grey They tell me your passion's gone away And I don't need no carryin' on You stand in the line just to hit a new low You're faking a smile with the coffee to go You tell me your life's been way off line You're falling to pieces everytime And I don't need no carryin' on Cause you had a bad day You're taking one down You sing a sad song just to turn it around You say you don't know You tell me don't lie You work at a smile and you go for a ride You had a bad day The camera don't lie You're coming back down and you really don't mind You had a bad day You had a bad day Well you need a blue sky holiday The point is they laugh at what you say And I don't need no carryin' on You had a bad day You're taking one down You sing a sad song just to turn it around You say you don't know You tell me don't lie You work at a smile and you go for a ride You had a bad day The camera don't lie You're coming back down and you really don't mind You had a bad day (Oh.. Holiday..) Sometimes the system goes on the blink And the whole thing turns out wrong You might not make it back and you know That you could be well oh that strong And I'm not wrong So where is the passion when you need it the most Oh you and I You kick up the leaves and the magic is lost Cause you had a bad day You're taking one down You sing a sad song just to turn it around You say you don't know You tell me don't lie You work at a smile and you go for a ride You had a bad day You've seen what you like And how does it feel for one more time You had a bad day You had a bad day Had a bad day Had a bad day Had a bad day Had a bad day Had a bad day ----------------------------------- That song always puts me in a good mood. :)

Scott, Reni is gorgeous! Her smile lights up a room doesn't it? It is so cool she is a wrestler. You and dh have the same hair style. You are doing a great job with your daughter. KUDOS to you. I am very sorry about your wife. I get the drug thing, damaging the brain...MIL is the same way. She had a severe case of the DT's last year and hasn't been the same since. Still drinking and I suspect probably using something too. It's tough and dh and I reached a point where we're done. He has told his mom no more and she is no longer allowed in our life. It just gets to a point where either they can't take it anymore, or YOU can't take it anymore. You are a good man...and look like a great coach. :-) My uncle coaches wrestling and loves it. Lindy, THANKS for the welcome

Hello! I have been a member, actively and not so actively of LDS Talk forever and a day. I think almost 8 years to be exact. I've known Heather since before she was hitched. It was so nice to Sgallan post. :-) A lot of the boards I used to frequent are going haywire....or veeeeery slow, so I thought I would come back and see how LDS talk was doing. I truly prefer this format over anyone it has ever had. IT's so much nicer on the eyes. I am LDS...yada yada yada. I have been married for almost 8 years and had three great children in that time frame. My daughter, passed away two years ago. My son will be 7 in April and my other Daughter will be 4 in March. If you ever watch mind of Mencia....then you can get a pretty good idea of the kind of man I married. I swear he and my husband share the same brain! At least I am always laughing in our relationship. I don't really know what else to say. I'll be 29 in May....but I'll tell everyone I am 30, because it sounds like I am lying, otherwise...plus I'll prepare my mind to wrap around the fact that I made it out of my 20's. (IOW, I don't want to hyperventilate over the aging process). My plan is w/ in the next four years to get my RN and then work my way on to become a Nurse Practitioner. I write, sing, take piano lessons...and cook. So there.

SCOTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tis me, Estump...now eleigh1977. I did not know that you were a single dad now. Is this new for you? (sorry I am nosey, but I know a little of your history from the past :) ) I am sorry that things could not work out, because I know that you worked very hard. You my friend are a good man...even if you are a godless heathen.

1. Spinoza (100%) Click here for info 2. Aristotle (97%) Click here for info 3. Aquinas (93%) Click here for info 4. St. Augustine (82%) Click here for info 5. Jeremy Bentham (73%) Click here for info 6. Epicureans (71%) Click here for info 7. Ockham (63%) Click here for info 8. Ayn Rand (60%) Click here for info 9. Kant (60%) Click here for info 10. Stoics (60%) Click here for info 11. John Stuart Mill (59%) Click here for info 12. Nietzsche (59%) Click here for info 13. Jean-Paul Sartre (57%) Click here for info 14. Cynics (44%) Click here for info 15. David Hume (44%) Click here for info 16. Plato (38%) Click here for info 17. Prescriptivism (38%) Click here for info 18. Thomas Hobbes (27%) Click here for info 19. Nel Noddings (22%) Click here for info

When did I say a person couldn't have a short term relationship that didn't or shouldn't include kissing? I said that, for me, dating different people in H.S. made it easier for me to stay chaste. I didn't say that it would for anyone else. No need to stupidify your post (though stupidify isn't a word.) Clarifying what you meant was appreciated. You are correct and again I agree...you are allowed to plan short relationships that include kissing...just as a woman is allowed and able to buy herself a diamond ring.

http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/chrtree.htm http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/12-23-2004-63339.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree (probably the most reliable source)

Agreed disruptive...there are those people who use people for one thing and one thing only.

Who says? I kissed my now husband on our first date, because he was WAAAAAAAAAaaaaaay too cute not to kiss. I just couldn't help myself. He more than appreciated my gesture. Kissing....you don't want to kiss a ton of people...though I probably kissed more than most people. My good friend (good, active LDS girl) used to say....I need to try all 31 flavors until I find the one I like. Of course kissing leads to other experimentation...so if you can't kiss with out going any further...then don't go around kissing people. I'd venture to say, girls are probably far more satisfied w/ just kissing for any length of time. Teenage boys tend to want to go further. At least in H.S. (though I hear times are a 'changin'...and girls are becoming just as aggressive. Things have changed a lot in the 10+ years since I've been a teenager!) Elder Kikuchi (sp?) said something like engaged and dating people should kiss for 3 seconds. I thought that was sweet...I mentioned that in Institute years ago...then I turned to my friend and stated (when I thought no one else was listening), that advice was only for good girls...I kissed for five seconds! B) My sister and her friends were sitting a few rows behind me and she belted out...NO, I distinctly remember you and J*** kissing for fifteen minutes one night. I love sisters. The institute director found it highly amusing. Set your own standards based on what you feel is right for YOU. The leaders have set boundaries....and it's important for you to read and understand them...and then make your decisions. I'd say Don't get serious w/ anyone in High School. I never did. I dated a ton of people...had a blast. It was far easier to stay chaste when I didn't put myself in a situation to have long term feelings for someone.

LDS Sister...I agree... I don't think there should be score keeping. Unfortunately there is, in a lot of marriages. I do think couples should talk about what they feel is appropriate. ONLY I would hope that the do this before marriage. ;-) I also have gotten to the point when I just say to my DH...hey I need a Hug! I don't make him guess what I need anymore...and he tells me as well.

BUMP UGLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you freaking kidding me?????????? US...man alive, that is the biggest turn on statement, E-V-E-R! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not sure how I feel about this submission thing...because we know the bible has been translated by men. I also know that men are generally more sexually driven than women. Then I have to wonder if this is truly what Paul/God intended....OR is this some interpretation some horny man made of the whole one flesh thing. Bottom line....it boils down to intimacy. I think a lot of people in todays world have absolutely NO idea what true intimacy is. They've been hurt or whatever, and they can't get close. Sex..then becomes a chore for a lot of females. It just does. Speaking as my own woman, I believe when intimacy is not fostered...and men just ask for sex...it is going to make a woman shut down. (okay not all women...but I know a lot of them who feel this way.) I personally could see myself having sex EVERY day, maybe twice...if my husband would foster more bouts of intimacy with me...holding my hand...being interested i what I have to say, even if it's just fluff talk.....whatever. I have a very good husband...and we are probably together in the biblical sense more than most married couples we know. I also have diabetes, which seriously affects my sex drive from time to time. The times when he has paid extra attention to my needs and not been all heathen in his approach to needing sex...he freely admits I am far more open and willing....however when I am approached as though I am just an object...the likely hood of having sex is about 50% At that point it truly depends on my mood. I know for both men and women...if we pay attention to the needs outside of sexual gratification....the ebb and tide of sex will gratify both parties in a marriage. It's the consideration, kindness and charity we need to work on in our marriages to make them work. There are couples who cannot have sex....for one reason or another and they have fabulous marriages. I have thought about the 'one flesh' statement for a very long time and I believe it entails a unity in so much more than just the sexual aspect of a marriage. That being said...if either party w/in a marriage denies on a continual basis....it isn't sex issues...it's intimacy issues. They need counseling. I would never ask my husband to move out of our bedroom...though I do ask him for a night of uninterrupted sleep once or twice a week. I am witchy with a b when I don't get enough sleep. He understands that and obliges. I also understand that he has needs...and I help him to fufill them, even when I am not completely invested or even in the mood. There has to be give and take. It is about communication and we can't judge another couples approach to their own sexuality. Each marriage is different. I do agree no woman should be forced...nor should any man (which does happen people!). I do think both people are obligated to do what it takes to make both people happy in the marriage. If the man wants it every day....the woman wants it once a week...then say three times should suffice. It's meeting in the middle...and obviously, there was no pun intended in that last statement.

Biz that's not necessarily true....a woman can be sealed to more than one husband. It is a rarity though, but it does/can happen. Women can be sealed to more than one husband, but they need the FP's approval. Even a man getting sealed, as I understand it, still needs a letter from the FP. I have pesronal biases and issues w/ this policy as well. However, I have known women who were in a similar situation and got permission to be sealed to both of their husbands (the one deceased) and the new husband. It's possible, so keep writing letters. Have her husband write letters....and all hopefully will be worked out.

I agree w/ Traveler! I am also about to enter into this phase of college again and find a job. All though I am the SAHM....so the dynamic is a bit different. My kids will just have to get used to the fact that mom isn't there 100% of the time anymore. Dh is very supportive and we are aware it's going to get sticky....but one of us needs to finish, so the other can can finish college as well. Does that make sense? Dh wants me to finish first. One bit of advice I would stress is that on Sunday's make sure you don't have to attend any other meetings than necessary. I think Sundays' are too jam packed as it is, and I know many married student couples who are very stressed, because the sabbath day would be a perfect day for a couple of hours of family time.....yet there's church, then choir, then the dh's feel like it's necessary to home teach. We've made the Sunday's dh doesn't have to work, a church only day. We don't attend any thing else....we come home from church and the rest of the day is ours! PLUS, when my kids were little, I'd often go visit DH on the job and go to lunch with him. We just learned to get creative. I think Laurel has some sound advice as well....

why don't oswar and goingthruthemotions just get divorced from their spouses who are leaving the church and marry eachother. :-) *snicker* JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSST KIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDDIIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGG. Sorry I just couldn't resist. Forgive me. Oswar, things change in marriages. People change. There is never a guarantee the person you married, will be the SAME person a few years down the road. It sounds like your husband has a lot of pent up anger toward the church. He needs to deal with it. You ultimately have to decide what you want w/ your life. IF he can agree that you will attend church w/ your kids...then you should be okay. HOwever if he tries to stop you or the kids from going...that's a control issue. You can't make him go...don't try to make him go....you need to respect his space. He needs to respect yours\ space and allow you the right to worship and believe the way you believe. People of different faiths and opinions stay married all the time. The key word is respect. As far as the swearing...just talk to him about it. Ask him not to use those words or phrases around you or the kids. If he continues to do so...he is not respecting you and that to me is akin to being passive aggressive. He may just be doing it to push you away, to see how you'll react....whatever the case may be. AND it may just be that his family was this way in private and you never knew it before. Who knows. At any rate, I find honest communication the best policy. Use the analogy of a smoker...if he was a smoker, and had kids...chances are in this day and age, he'd go outside to smoke so the kids would be kept from the harmful air. Same goes for the vulgarity. If he needs to use it...use it on his own time and not around you and the kids. That's my opinion. :-) Agree you won't bug him about church, if he isn't vulgar. I think that's a fair trade.

I prepare for the unexpected, so to speak. I often listen to good music. I believe music to be the most non-intrusive way to receive what God is trying to tell us...love...simple love that isn't earned. We always have His love. We always have our divinity. Earning his trust back though, is a whole other ball game. I think that is where we let ourselves believe we don't 'feel' the spirit. The truth is...that is when the spirit is there the most...it's always ready for us to receive it. We earn his trust by serving our brothers and sisters....admitting our mistakes...repenting of them....and then moving on about the Lord's business. It's a step by step process. I think self-forgiveness is much harder in coming than the Lords. go volunteer....do your HT or VTing w/ renewed spirit and vigor....read of the best books and realize....we all screw up! We all make mistakes and perfection will not be attained in this life. I have different ideas about 'perfect' anyway. Here are some great lyrics of a song by David Wilcox.... How Did You Find Me Here I listen to this song a lot. It helps me to remember that when life is tough....I'll be found one way or another.