Mahonri1

Joseph had a number of wives. Women such as Marinda Hyde, the wife of Orson Hyde who he sent on a mission to Palestine. How can anyone have more than one wife, be in jail and not communicate with them? Seems very odd that he would only communicate with one. The one that knocked Eliza R. Snow Smith down a flight of stairs and caused her to miscarry Josephs baby. Threw Fannie Alger out of the house when she caught Joseph with the 14-16 year old. Start reading some Church History and take off the blinders. The leaders were not perfect just as Noah and past leaders were not. Prophetic leaders yes, but perfect men, no. If Joseph Smith had tried to marry my wife after sending me on a mission he would end up dead in a ditch after being castrated. Some things you just don't do, prophet of God or not. Orson Hyde never had this wife sealed to him, she was Josephs. As for the formation of the Church, The Lord gave specific instructions as to the Date it was to take place but not the name? Two other name changes (some references say four but two until it was the current one is all I can find) show something is odd. Didn't the Lord know what name he wanted in the beginning? Add to this the Church was organized in Manchester, not Fayette and you have members such as I asking 'what is going on'? Yes, I am a member and I do not like being lied to. Commission or omission, it is still a lie. Print the truth and let us think for ourselves. This crap of 'when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done' is contrary to everything Joseph and Brigham taught. They taught members to listen and think for themselves, not blindly follow. It is almost as deceitful and satanic as 'follow the leaders, even when you know they are wrong, and you will be blessed for it'. The biggest load of garbage ever taught by anyone, anywhere. The Nazi's used this excuse. If I am told to do things I know are wrong, even if given the excuse 'it is OK because we are your leaders', I definately would not do it. You don't shift responsibility for your own actions. That is contrary to the Gospel and personal responsibility as contained in the scriptures. I wonder at the level of intelligence of anyone who would believe such stupidity. Just teach the Gospel, not fanciful excuses and ideas designed to get people under control. Do what Joseph Smith taught: Teach correct principals and let the people govern themselves. It really is that simple.

"I will tel you who the Lamintes are not. They are not the traditional American Indians such as the Navajo, Apache, Crow, Blackfeet, Shosone, etc. It is too complicated to explain but the scholars I read say the same thing. Additionally, don't forget that when Lehi got here there were already many, many, people(s) here. " Funny, isn't it. Even the Doctrine and Covenants has the Lord calling the American Indians Joseph Smith and others were sent to preach to Lamanites. Spencer W. Kimball called them Lamanites. As for the BofM and the land being already populated. Not in my copy. A land 'preserved' for their seed is not a populated area. They were immigrants in a land reserved for them, not interlopers into an already built up area. Better read the book more carefully and read Joseph Smiths statements more carefully and forget the convoluted apologists at FARMS and FAIR who get paid to cloud issues rather than preach the Gospel.

"Not for moral reasons or revelation. That sure is a revelation to me." Glad it isn't a revelation to you. It was not a revelation to the brethren either. NO "Thus says the Lord" anywhere around the statement of Spencer W. Kimball. Nothing about this at all until BYU started having trouble scheduling the games and protests were held at many they played. If God wanted blacks to hold the Priesthood {rememb er, Joseph Smith ordained at least one without heavenly punishment or penalties) he would have made it clear at the time. He did not. Even the brethren surrounding Pres Kimball said it was 'a policy', with none other like McConkie, Jos Fielding and a few others keeping up the facade that it was 'the Lords will'. It was a financial decision. How could "one drop of negro blood" be sold to intermixed populations the world over? How could nice 'white and delightsome' LDS temple recommend holders in the US who got into genealogy and found a black ancestor 6 generations ago suddenly be denied their recommends? It is about the money just like any other corporation.

Yes, it is possible I misread. But I did not misread page 138, second paragraph where it says "I then laid my hands upon Oliver Cowdery, and ordained him an Elder of teh "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter0dayk Saints; after which, he ordained me also to the office of an Elder of said Church. I remember reading what I posted because we had a discussion on it in the priesthood meeting and it got quite contentious. How many name changes did the church Joseph started/restored did it go through to get to the one we use today? I know of three but have heard or more. Any information on that? Seems odd that the date of formation was so specifically told to Joseph but not the name of the Church.

The problem was racism, pure and simple. No Revelation as we believe it was ever stated. Brigham Young made slavery legal in Utah Territory. Brigham Young taught "one drop of negro blood" disqualified one from ever holding the Priesthood. Brigham Young taught Negroes would never have the opportunity to hold the Priesthood until after all other inhabitants of the earth had been offered it first. Brigham Young taught that intermarriage with anyone with negro blood was punishable by death on the spot. Nothing in the teachings of Jesus says anything like this. Kimball merely looked at is rationally and changed the policy. All the lies and excuses don't stand up in the light of day as anything other than blatant racism. Nothing excuses this practice. "Leadership" did not lead anything but taught prejudice, fear and racism. A sad commentary on those who would be 'inspired leaders'. The big push for changing the policy was BYU football and basketball having games cancelled by schools that refused to play against a racist institution. This cost money and that is the one thing the Brethren understand above all else. Lose money, lose power. So, the policy was changed. Joseph Smith ordained at least one black man. If it was a commandment he would not have done so.

When I was on a Lamanite mission, all the inhabitants of the North and South American continent as descendants of the original inhabitants(not the immigrants other than those who intermarried) and all the South Sea islanders were Lamanites. Spencer Kimball and back to Joseph Smith said so. The Book of Mormon is written TO THE LAMANITES. Now it is changed. Trying to find out Who is a Lamanite is nearly impossible in the church. No more Lamanite Generation at BYU. No more Lamanite Placement Program. No more much of anything in the main thrust of the Book of Mormon in bringing the Gospel to its people. With all the changes lately, who are the Lamanites?

Baptisms for the dead can be performed anywhere priesthood holders can find enough water. When the Kirtland Temple was built NO baptism for the dead took place. NO endowments were done. Nothing of modern temple ceremonies was even brought up. It was a glorified cultural hall and nothing like the current temples. Most of the current practice was instituted in Utah which is why the LDS Church lost the case for ownership of the Temple Lot in Independence, Missouri to the 'Temple Lot Mormons' They could not show ownership and the 'ceremonies' were not what Joseph Smith had given or taught at the time. A lot of questions about building a Temple and then using it for dances and parties instead of Temple work. The ceremonies only came about after Joseph Smith became a Mason. None of this stuff was done before then in the Kirtland Temple. None was even hinted at. Just like the name of the church, the first stuff and the later are not the same. One thing and then another gives a lot of leeway to those who are of the anti-mormon persuasion. You just can't explain truth when it changes so much. It is as if God reveals something and then changes his mind. Kind of like Polygamy in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smiths public statements on it and his private practices. What is truth? "What I say it is today and it may change tomorrow", is a good definition.

In reading the manual lessons I came across a couple things that bother me. Joseph, after baptizing his father in 1830 is claimed to have said "I have lived to see my father baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Joseph could not have said this. This name was not given nor used until two or more name changes had been made, six years or so in the future. Why are they trying to teach 'truth' by telling lies? Then we have Joseph in jail writing letters to Emma Smith, his wife. What about all the other wives? Weren't they worth writing? Were they toys to be played with and ignored otherwise? Or did Joseph write them and the letters are hidden away, destroyed or ignored? I appreciate teaching faith but not by lying and censoring the truth. Printing half truths, changing history and ignoring basic honesty does not speak well for those who would have us believe.