August

Is anyone here necessarily saying it makes a difference to salvation? That doesn't mean it isn't a significant issue worthy of discussion and study.

So, if you can put up with another of my threads... Could you explain your Church's beliefs about marriage being eternal? How does it work?where does the belief come from? etc. In light of that, how do you explain this passage? Matthew 22:23-33 23 On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. They put this question to him, 24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.' 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother. 26 The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. 27 Finally the woman died. 28 Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her." 29 Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. 31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching. I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong, I just want to know. Thanks:)

Maybe. Though those seem to be the traits that most Christians should have. The funny thing is that no one who didn't know me thought I was Catholic or Protestant, or just thought I was a Christian. They all said Mormon. One of them even said I "didn't look Catholic!" I guess I wasn't wearing my giant Crucifix, or an Our Lady of Guadalupe tattoo.:) Guess the LDS have a good reputation. I also was not eating Jello.

Ok, so today I was told I looked like a Mormon for the fifth time. 3 of the people who said this were Mormon, the other two were not. No, I was not wearing a white shirt or a tie. So I asked my roomate's Mormon girlfriend, and she said "Yeah, you do." Huh? What does a Mormon look like?

Wait, how do you define Gospel? When you say "living prophet" do you mean that the Gospel can change? Maybe we're having a problem with definitions.

There are doctrines I've struggled with, as well as aspects of the Church's history. And I do take those things to the Lord. The way I deal with it is to trust in God, and to look back at the central aspects of my faith. If I know that Jesus is my Savior, and I know that He founded a Church which has never and will never fall, then anything else that bothers me can be overcome.

I don't think you have any reason to lie, but neither do Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Seiks, Buddhists, Lutherans, Oneness Pentacostles or Unitarians. Yet all those groups have vastly different interpretations of God. All those groups have faith, but you would say that they are wrong, or missing part of the truth. What makes you right and them wrong? How do you know people in other religions haven't prayed to know if their religion is right? If I wanted to gain points, there are dozens of anti-Mormon sites I could go to, I'm here because I sincerely want to understand what you believe.

That's one thing I was very impressed with at the sacrament meetings I've attended, people were very reverant. They also dressed better, I wish Catholics still believed in wearing their Sunday best every week, instead of just Easter and Christmas (maybe). As to the wine/water/grape juice/lemonade discussion, Catholics use wine because it's what Jesus did at the Last Supper. The Bible doesn't actually say that it was wine, but that's what Jews drank at passover, which is what the Last Supper was. So the RCC will always use wine.

Maybe I should ask this question. What is the difference between a spiritual truth and a historical fact? What most of you are saying about the BOM, is to pray about it and see if the Holy Spirit tells you that its true. Certainly, you can't know that Jesus is your savior, or that God loves you without praying about it. Those are spiritual matters. However, knowing whether or not ancient Jews came to America is a historical question. I mean, even an atheist would acknowledge that the BOM was based on true events if they found conclusive evidence for the existence of the BOM civilizations. I grant you, there's probably plenty of artifacts from mesoamerica that haven't been found yet, so we'll see.

I consider LDS members Christian, but in the Catholic view the only Christian Churches are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, since only those two have a valid Eucharist. Eucharist being the body and blood of Christ, you'd say the bread and wine. I'll have to do a little more digging to find the RCC's official stance on individual members. I don't think heretic applies. Whatever the "official" stance is, I'm not going to run around telling people who sincerely love Jesus that they aren't Christian. I know how it feels to be told that I'm not Christian when I am.

Sure, some parts of the Bible can't be proven. But once again, the difference is we're talking about the existance of an entire culture. I would think that evidence would matter very much to you, if you can prove with archeology that the BOM civilizations actually existed, then no rational person could deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet, myself included.

I guess the difference is that there might not be surviving historical documents about something that actually happened, or evidence to prove that a specific person was born at a specific time might not be conclusive. However, the BOM is talking about entire cultures for which there would be some evidence. We're talking a lot here about why I disbelieve, but why do you believe?

Welcome! I'm new here myself, but there's some really nice people here who know a lot, I'm sure they'll help you out. I'm Catholic, not Mormon, but I really do hope you know that there is a God out there who loves you.

No, you misunderstand. I'm not saying its all one or all the other. Faith is necessary to believe in Christ, but reason is also a guide to truth. You're not ceeding the logical ground, are you? I mean, you think your Church is more logical also, right?

Let me phrase the original question another way. What is it that makes you so certain the Book of Mormon is true, in light of all the critizism that has been leveled at it? What are the one or two big things, that when its all said and done, convince you that the book is a true record?

How would that be attacking? If you have evidence, then present it. We don't have to have a shouting match over it, because I know we won't agree, but we can still learn from each other's beliefs.

Not really, no. That isn't saying you should ignore feelings, but God gave man the gift of reason as well, shouldn't we use that as well? If so, then hard evidence does matter. That's the issue, there isn't anything outside of the BOM that validates it. That's not just me talking, it's the concensus of experts in linguistics, archeology, genetics and the history of pre-Columbian America that the Book of Mormon is not an accurate depiction of the history of the Native Americans. To look at this another way, the LDS Church is predicated on Joseph Smith being a prophet of God. If historical, linguistic, dna or archeological evidence can prove the BOM story, then he was a prophet. If however evidence is found which casts doubt on this story, then it casts doubt on Joseph Smith.

Sure, but LDS leadership has always taught that the BOM is an accurate historical record, whereas current Catholic leadership acknowledges that some Old Testament stories may not actually have occured.

Like Mormons, Catholics believe that our Church will never go away.

Certainly not, but my faith isn't contradicted by archeological and DNA evidence. Faith must be the foundation of any religion, I knew that Jesus was real before I understood any of the logical reasons for His existence. However, I'm Catholic because it's the Church that makes the most sense, both theologically and historically. What I see, is that the Catholic Church can be validated by both faith and reason. I believe that so strongly that I left my Baptist upbringing to join the Catholic Church.

So, here's my next one. And please don't take offense, I'm not trying to say you're stupid. Something I was never able to understand, is why you believe this book is true, in light of the archeological and DNA evidence, all of which is fairly conclusive that the BOM is based on cultures that never existed. So do you have some evidence? Or do you rely only on your feelings to determine if the book is true? It's one of those things that puzzle me, because the foundation of the LDS makes so little sense, yet the Mormons are the only major religious group in the US whose rate of adherence goes up with their level of (secular) education.

Adam and Eve in general.

You're assuming that this story actually occured. As I've understood it, the account of the fall of man can be properly understood as an alegory, not as actual history. The authors intent here is not to give a true account, but to teach a truth. Man is fallen because of rebellion against God's authority.

the fact that the Church did bad things, and that some members of it had harsh theological views does not invalidate it. The RCC never defined as Dogma anything that was in error. Limbo, for example was held out as the best explanation available at the time. The RCC does have development of doctrine, some things do change as we understand the world better. The Pope backing away from limbo is just another example of this.

Something else to think about In Genesis, how does the snake tempt Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? Genesis 3:5 "No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad." (New American Bible) Eve is tempted by being "like God" What's your reaction to this? It seems to be contradictory to eternal progression, Eve's desire to be like God got her and Adam kicked out of Eden.