Mark

Hi Ray, what about the quoate that Brigham said that "Adam is the Father of our Spirits" I'll give you reference when I get back form vacation. Mark John 1:12

Hi Jenda, What NT Covenants must I follow to be in Gods presence, according to RLDS teachings? Ray, So your saying that these gods, who were treating Israel poorly, were wicked god's? So God had to kill them, or at the least take there godhood away and let them die as men? Wouldn't it be clearer if you read in context that the gods (elohim, lit. mighty ones, or gods little g) were the rulers of Israel at this time (the judges ) and they were children of God as all Israel was? And because they were wicked God was reminding Israel that they were just men and will die as such and that he along is judge of the earth? Jesus died in His humanity, not in His Deity, God cannot stop existing. Are you saying there were gods here on earth ruling Israel? You have just opened a very large can of worms Ray, but at least it is in line with some of the older LDS teachings that even elohim can fall. Matt. 5:48, From verse 43 to 48 Jesus is preaching on the mount, to both men and WOMEN, that LOVE is the most important thing, he even tells the to greet the tax collector in love and if we do this we will be perfect as God in that sense. We know that we can onlt be perfefct in Gods eyes by being clothed in Christs righteousness, which was imputed to us by His work on the cross. It is very clear that we can not reach perfection through works of the law, read the Book of Galations, Hebrews, and Romans to start with. This does not in any way shape of form imply that we can become God, the bible is very clear when it says there 'was no God before me, nor will there be any other God after me' ( paraphrase from Isaiah). Wer can only be perfect in Christ, thats the whole point of the NT, that Jesus died for us so we can be in Him and that He will ALWAYS intercecde for us ( Hebrews 7), He is our High Priest forever. Take you time and study this Ray, don't just look in your topical guide, really study and tell me where I error in what I just said, fair? I'm going on vacation I'll catch up in a week or so. Amillia, You said "Mark is not going to listen to anyone but himself" You almost got it, I will listen only to myself in that I will honestly check out every thing by testing it with what the bible says and in prayer. Do me a favor and copy some of the things here by ray and send them to different LDS authorites and check him out, I would be careful in that he is not real clear even what LDS doctine is, see our thread on the nature of Jesus. Ask your bishop if LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus was always God and ask him to show you where it says that. He said he is a prophet, as mmember of the church for over 30 years I know what the LDS teachers have taught and Ray isn't on the same page as them on many issues, be careful. Mark John 1;12

Hi Ray, I was kind of hoping that a LDS member would correct you on Sec 93, but I guess thats is not going to happen. Sec 93 is a proof text that LDS docrine teaches that Jesus was not always God, verse 14 says.." he was called the Son of God, because he received not the fulness at the first." then John goes on to tell about his baptism, and then in verse 17 says "he received all power both in heaven and earth, and the glory of the Father was with him,..." This is 'present tense' and demands the fact that the author is saying that at this point of time Jesus received power and was glorified. Taken in context with the following verses that JS ( and man) can be glorified (see verse 28 in that when man is glorified he will know all things). Ray, sec. 93 is a proof text to my original post in that Jesus was inteligence, born to Elohim in spirit ( the firstborn) and at some point in time had to be exalted to deity. The priesthood teaching manual standard, "Gospel through the Ages", which was endorsed by the church as a offical teaching manual says..." God the eternal Father was once a MORTAL Man who passed through a school of earth life similar tothat throuh which you are passing.." (p.104) Speaking of God it continues..." thus he grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He BECAME God..." (p.114) If you like I can give you MANY more quotes for LDS apostles and prophets that teach that God was once a man and had to be exalted to the position of God. So I hope you see that the reason I keep asking for a reference is that you didn't give me one that says that Jesus has always been God, you gave me one that said he wasn't yet glorified. So I'll stand by my statement. Ray, topical guides are great in helping you find a subject, but if you don't study and do your home work you are going to be deceived, do a study on the nature of God taught by the LDS church before you say things like you did, it's just not true that the LDS church teaches that Jesus was always God, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying that it is a mis-truth to say that, and I realize it is because you have not studied what you're church teaches on this subject, I can give you verse after verse of LDS teachers saying that all beings come from intelligence and have to be exalted to deity the the process of eternal law, I' kinda let down that other members didn't correct you on this and left you hanging. So back to my original post that the LDS Jesus is a different Jesus of the bible, don't worry about whos right or wrong at this point, just acknowlage that we believe in to different Jesus's. LDS Jesus is a created being (out of intelligence) and the Biblical Jesus has always been God ( John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-10) Do me a favor, don't bail on this, if I am wrong give me a clear current LDS teaching that says Jesus has always been God? Mark John 1:12

Hi Jenda, Can I, according to your churches teachings, spend eternity in the presence of God by just believing in what Christ did for me and accepting His Grace and by letting Him take care of the rest? Hi Ray, So does that mean you want to go through each verse and test them? Lets start with Psalms 82:6? I'll start it out by asking you who are these "gods" God said they will "die like men"? Are you saying that gods can die? Mark John 1:12 Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, Where can I find the teaching that the LDS church teach that Jesus was always God? At least have the honesty to give a reference. I looked at the topical guide in the LDS translation (seminary bible) as you suggested, and it says Jesus was the first the firstborn to the Father IN THE SPIRIT. Are you saying this does not imply that there was a time when jesus wasn't God according to LDS theology? Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, You bailed on our last discussion when you got stuck in a mistruth, if I discuss this topic with you will you finish the discussion? We can start with Psalms 82:6 if you like? I'll use the topical guide if you like and we can test it to see if its true, but please let me know if your honest enough to discuss the questions and proof texts? Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, You have made a false statement, the LDS, nowhere do LDS teachers teach that Jesus was always God, you are deceiving those who read your post. I would love to discuss your post when your ready to deal with what your teachers teach, let me know. Mark John 1:12

HI Jenda, See what I mean, read Faerie's post, she has bought into everything you claim JS went astray on, I never said you worship JS, I tried to convey that people buy into his false teachings. This is the bottom line JS has led millions of people, by his false teachings on a path that is in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches, he has poluted every essentual docrine and you are condoning it when you say things like "great post", this person mostlikely believes that male members of the church will become Gods, and she has potential to become a Godess. Just Think about it Jenda, and be a Brean. Who has more truth in you're opinion, myself or Faerie? and why? Just curious. Mark John 1:12

I believe that Paul was talking about another (physical) person who could or might claim to be the Son of God, the Savior of the world. That person would not be the Son of God and would therefore have a different gospel. That person would steal salvation from those who would otherwise put their faith in Christ. The Book of Mormon preaches Jesus the Christ. He is mentioned on virtually every page of the book. When Joseph Smith organized the church in 1830, he preached Jesus the Christ (not another Jesus) and did not represent himself as a savior. It was, again, not till many years later that he started investigating other possibilities surrounding the godhead, and is one of the main reasons I believe that JS,Jr., became a fallen prophet. Hi Jenda, The context of the verses in 2 Cor. clearly state that there will be false apostles, and that they will be righteous to look upon, its always in the plural. Give me a example of how one would preach another Jesus and be righteous at the same time, at least to those they are deceiving? Its clear that they will preach Jesus, but that it would be a Jesus that can't save, a false ideology that would accompany this fake Jesus that would lead people astray. I believe that you answered your own answer when you said " It was, again, not till many years later that he started investigating other possibilities surrounding the godhead, and is one of the main reasons I believe that JS,Jr., became a fallen prophet." Joseph was preaching another jesus and another gospel while all the time portraying himself and those who were in his leadership as righteous apostles. What is the fruit of Joseph Smiths teachings, men can become God, Jesus was the brother of Lucifer, a council of Gods said "let there be light', masonry ceremonies ie. secret handshakes, death threats to those who blab the secrets, re-wrote the bible and put his own name in it, plural marrage? The legacy of JS is mass confusion. There are millions of men that believe that they can become by very nature God because of his teachings and his teachings alone. Men and women go to temples and actually believe thay are doing thing for others so they can be with God (read John 1:13). Don't you realize the damage this man has done to Christianity, he has taken Gods salvation away from God and gave it to the authority of man and has exalted men into the very nature of God, just as satan did to Eve see verse 3 of 2 Cor. 11. he has taken the simple salvation of God, by Grace and evolved it into the mess that it is today. This is a very serious issue and a very serious charge, why would you want to take a chance on this man, wouldn't it be wiser to trust in God , than to place your fate in the teachings of a man that you admit is a fallen teacher? About every minute a person becomes a member of the LDS church, all the while being taught that they can become by very nature God, or wife to him. What are you going to do about Jenda? Just say we all believe in the same thing and its OK? You are much brighter than that, be honest with yourself and test JS, he is either the real thing or he is a Cor. 2 apostle, he fits that mold perfectly. One thing bad about posting messages, and not speaking directly is that we can't read each other, I want you to know I'm not a bully like you've called me in the past, I not here to win a argument, I'm here to get to the truth, and believe that truth. I want you to do me a favor, pray for me this week that I would know that truth and I will pray for you to know what is true, pray that we can test what we believe with the Word and be strong enough to rejest anything that is not true, fair? Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, You made a claim that needs to be addressed, maybe you didn't see my last post so I'll put it up top so you can see it. Its very important to back up such a claim that the LDS church teaches Jesus was always God? Where does it say that? Mark John 1:12

HI Jenda, Actually I believe it is both the reorg. and the Utah church, but I'm coming from the angle that you give a proclaimed prophet who you believe is not a prophet a free ride. I believe I understand why, but never the less it amazes me. My question to you is based on the reply that you gave to me that we all believe in the same God, when in fact it is very clear that we don't and Paul warned of others teaching ANOTHER Jesus and ANOTHER gospel, so my question stands..."Who are these other Jesus's that Paul is warning against and what is the other gospel that he warns against? Remember these people are righteous looking on the outside that Paul warns us against, they claim to be apostles and prophets, who are these people and how can we test those who claim to have such authority? Mark John 1:12

Hi Jenda, The God I worship has always been God, the god the LDS worship was once a sinful man, theres a big difference there. I do not worship the same God as your teachings define, nor do I worship the god of Joseph Smith, you should assume that we believe the same, because we don't. I believe that I can get to the presence of the Father because He loves me enough to forgive my sinful nature, LDS teachings teach that they have to work and prove themselves and then maybe? the Father will allow them in His Presence, big difference there. What do you do with verses in the bibles that teach that deceivers will come out of the church leading people astray to worship false gods. Thats why they are called sheeps in wolves clothing, that is what Paul in warning against ANOTHER JESUS and ANOTHER GOSPEL. If I am incorrect here, who is the other Jesus that Paul warns us against and what is the other gospel that he warns us against? If you claim to be a Prophet of God and you are not, then that makes one a FALSE prophet, not a almost prophet or a sometimes prophet, you either are or you are not. Any way let me know who from inside the Church is teaching another Jesus as Paul warns? mark Johyn 1:12

Hi Jenda, Then is it fair to say that the LDS church is led by men that, for what ever reason, are deceiving their people ( COJCOLDS ). This would mean that Hinkley and the 14 men under him are false apostles. Do you believe that they should be exposed as such as the Bible demands ( 2 Cor. 11 etc )? Mark john 1;12

Hi Jenda, Do you believe that Gordon Hinkley is a false Prophet? Mark John 1:12

Hi Bat, Ask for your answer in writting. And while your at it ask why they can have caffine now, my son asked a missionary last nigt about caffine and they told him they can drink it now as long as they don't get addicted. I might have to sue the church for mental issues from the beating I use to take as a kid from my non-LDS buddys for dogging me for always drinking rootbeer and not being able to drink a coke when we went to the market after school, thank God it wasn't against the word of wisdom to buy baseball cards. Mark John 1:12