chriscb
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Posts posted by chriscb
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"Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins--behold, he will confess them and forsake them." Doctrine and Covenants 58
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So I take it you haven't used the line: "What? You don't remember we dated in the pre-existence??" :-)
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So the roles are reversed? Because when Jesus was physically on this earth, He was the First Comforter and the Second was the Holy Spirit. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever".We are first taught by the First Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost. The Second Comforter is Jesus the Christ. The Savior quoted:
"I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.".
Joseph Smith taught that within the program of the gospel there are two Comforters. "One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism," he explained. "The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest," the Prophet continued, "and perhaps understood by few of this generation." Concerning it, a revelation declared: "This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom." -
The underlined portion I quoted above, was that a typo or did you intend to use the word "or"? According to scripture, the Comforter (paraclete) is the Holy Spirit. Who is this "Second Comforter" you speak of? The way you phrased your sentence, it comes across as if you are saying Jesus Christ is the "Second Comforter". Please explain.I am same way; one who thirsts for more light.
Chris, it is referring too them that received the Second Comforter or Jesus Christ. You are no longer a servant of Christ but a true friend of Christ. This is accomplished today when we our trials of fire and obeying the GOD's will are complete enough that we are presented to the Godhead by the Holy Ghost as a friend. It is done, we are instructed not just only by the Holy Ghost but by the FATHER, the Savior, and others who are assigned to instruct us doing our mortal probation.
[15]"Ye are My friends—henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth. Ye are My friends, for all things which I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you."
[16]"Ye have not chosen Me, but I have: chosen you."
ETA: Actually, I just answered my own question. Jesus is the first comforter (paraclete) and the Holy Spirit is the second. John 14:16 Jesus says "another paraclete" will come to help his disciples, implying Jesus is the first paraclete.
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I consider myself a humble man and one who is not "all-knowing" and therefore, if you feel impressed to share with me your knowledge about this quote and it's implications I would happily receive this new found knowledge. But, I suspect it has something to do with the great plan of happiness and our own eternal progression.Do you really understand this quote and what the true of implications given here?
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I'll go back and read the article. But, in your opinion and according to your beliefs, would it be appropriate to call the Holy Ghost "God" (as is recorded in Acts)?Honestly, I don't claim to be an expert in ancient Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, so I can't pretend to give the answer on that. I believe the article I posted by David Clark addresses some of those issues.
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I agree with you. The Bible does not teach the LDS concept. If a person wants to know about the preexistence, I'd point them to latter-day revelation rather than the Bible.Yes, I can expound. I think its more likely the man was blinded so the people could see God having victory over evil than to think the man was blinded because billions or how many years ago he sinned in a previous life.
Edit- By the way, I do believe in pre-existence, I just don't see any scriptural evidence for it.
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KristofferUmfrey, moving from the Lectures to the Bible, regarding this subject, I was wondering what you thought of the following passages.
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Don't these two passages seem to say that the Holy Ghost is not a female (since John calls the HG "He" and that He [the HG] is God?
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Well, you make a very good point, one that I cannot argue against. I don't necessarily agree, but I can certainly see how you can view it that way. But why do you think they called the Holy Ghost the "mind" that is shared between the Father and the Son?I believe I am consistent, I believe the Father and the Son are the Godhead, the governing priesthood over all things in creation. Just like a woman cannot be in the governing councils of the church, but can be the Relief Society or Primary President, doesn't mean she is not a person, she just has different responsibilities.
I guess you could call the Holy Ghost the Primary President over all creation.
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I really don't know the Torah well enough to pinpoint where this is found. Perhaps you could show me the OT verses which speak of this. But that's besides the point. We were previously discussing this topic in the context of the Lectures on Faith. If you get some of your beliefs from the Lectures, why not be consistent and believe the entire volume? If the Lectures say that the Godhead is comprised of only two personages, then wouldn't this seem to exclude a heavenly mother (at least from the Godhead)?I know I will be paraphrasing so bear with me...
The scriptures say that speaking against the Father and the Son can be forgiven. I believe the circumstance you describe would be denying the Son and can be forgiven. To me the denial of the Holy Ghost is to have her teach you something, so that you know the principle is true and then turn and fight against her teachings. If your earthly mother slaved to teach you and nurture in the right ways and as an adult you turned on her and spoke evil against her to try to turn your siblings and family against her, how would your father react if he was a righteous man? The OT ordered such adult children to be stoned, such was the seriousness of the offense.
Thoughts?
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Do the family of Gods whorship their " Abba Father" (explain Abba)? plzz :)
You can find the phrase Abba, Father in Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6. Basically, it would be like calling your Father, "Dad" or "Daddy" (like a small child).
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How about Abba Father?Question: Do this family of Gods whorship their God dad ?
Please be kind to me here, I have never written or spoken the term " God dad " before, an it is real awkward.
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That is an interesting viewpoint. However, what is blasphemy? Would it be "blasphemy" for me to see Jesus perform a miraculous act by the power of the Holy Spirit and then attribute that powerful act to Satan? I'd say so. And I think the context of Luke 12:10 bears this out.Because I believe that the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother I don't believe she has governing power as the Father and the Son do by virtue of their priesthood. The role of the Holy Ghost is to gently teach and guide God's children to truth, which is very akin to the role a mother plays within the family structure.
So I believe these verses exclude the Holy Ghost, for the reason that she doesn't hold governing power, not because she is not a personage.
Many LDS say we don't know the name of Heavenly Mother because of how much the Father honors her and how offended He would be at Her name being blasphemed. Isn't it interesting that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?
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This is one of the things that puzzles me. "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Genesis 1:2I, personally, think it means that we don't believe the Holy Ghost had a hand in the creation of the world. The creation was carried out by Christ under the direction of the Father. They were the two who created everything and thereby have supreme power over everything. The Holy Ghost does not share in that supreme power but instead focuses on the power to "bear record" of the Father and Son to the souls of men.
I don't know that I would be so quick to exclude the Holy Spirit from the Creation of this planet (or for that matter any of God's Creations).
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Is this a trick question?To all: when the Master come to knock on your door, does He say, "my servant, my I come in and abide for a time?" Or..."my friend, can I stay and abide for a time?"
"No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you." John 15:15
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The word "doctrine" means teaching not theory. The tri-unity of God aka the Trinity is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox as well as Protestant churches. Nowhere have I ever seen them call it a "theory". Your use of the word (theory) comes across to me as a pejorative. If you don't mean it that way, then please explain why you call it a "theory".Not all Christians dominations stated in the last post do believe in the catholic trinity theory. Yes! I mean theory since I use to be a Catholic.
I do "KNOW" there are three. Now, what do you say?
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Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained exactly how one recieves the appropriate authority from God. In other words, what actions must take place? I know what happened to me, but since you brought it up, I'll let you explain in your own words.Not having the appropriate authority from GOD. This would make baptism invalid if one wants to enter into the Celestial Kingdom.
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Just a slight correction. Technically, it wouldn't be a "re-baptism" since the infant wasn't baptized by immersion (only sprinkled with water or having water poured on it's head). Coming from a SBC background, we never considered "infant baptism" to truly be "baptism" (since no immersion took place).I'm poking around a bit myself, now. It's certainly clear the SBC baptizes by immersion and requires "re-baptism" in the case of a sprinkled infant or child. But I don't see where the question of a believing adult who was baptized by aspersion is directly addressed. Do you have a link that specifically addresses that scenario?
It's an interesting tangent. I'm willing to concede I may have picked a poor example to illustrate my point...
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He didn't say "AN eternal GOD" he said worshiping Jesus Christ as THE Eternal God. I think there is a big difference there. Also, I'm surprised by your answer. It seems to be a personal choice (depending upon whom LDS are speaking to). But many members of the LDS church will vehemently proclaim that we worship only God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ and that we do not worship Jesus as a distinct God. Mostly, I hear this when the conversation revolves around our being labeled as polytheists.
Hmm....I do worship Him as an eternal GOD and I am LDS.
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Yes, I saw that. However, how do you interpret [Lec 5:2a - 5:2c]?chriscb,
[Lec 5:2j] And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father;
[Lec 5:2k] which Mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son;
[Lec 5:2L] and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things; by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made:
[Lec 5:2m] and these three constitute the Godhead and are one: the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness;
[Lec 5:2n] filling all in all -the Son being filled with the fullness of the Mind, glory, and power; or in other words the Spirit, glory, and power of the Father - possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom;
[Lec 5:2o] sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father - a Mediator for man - being filled with the fullness of the Mind of the Father, or in other words, the Spirit of the Father;
[Lec 5:2p] which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments;
[Lec 5:2q] and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ;
[Lec 5:2r] possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all;
[Lec 5:2s] being filled with the fullness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one.
Although the language seems strange to me and is clearly LDS in tone, it all seems much more a type of trinitarianism than binatarianism. The spirit bears record and the three are one (not just one in purpose but in words much closure to traditional Christians thinking.)
As for the personages, it comes back to the question I asked on another thread. Does person and personages mean the same. (Outside Mormons people very rarely use personage any more) Personages (as I've seen LDS use it) seems to convey embodiement in a way persons (especailly by non-LDS) do not. I realize that the Holy Spirit is said to be a personage of spirit but the way personage in the first vision is used by LDs always makes me think that personage by itself conveys embodiement to LDS. However for an entity to "bear record" it must have a seperate something to it and this would best be described as "person" (ie an entity capable of separate observation and expression which IMHO are both required by the concept of "bearing record) Yet alone the repeated number of three instead of two, if it was merely a shared mind why give the number of three continually.
"[Lec 5:2a] There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made that are created and made, whether visible or invisible;
[Lec 5:2b] whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space.
[Lec 5:2c] They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.
So, from the above quote, does that mean the early LDS church did not believe the Holy Ghost was a "personage"?
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Yes, I read the D&C passages. I was just pointing out that the Book of Mormon says no such thing about a spirit prison or another chance.Hum! Did you read those passages I also included from the D & C.?
Copied for ready reference;
D&C 38: 5
5 But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;
D&C 76: 73
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the dgospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
D&C 88: 100
100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come athe spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation;
D&C 128: 22
22 Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the dKing Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their fprison; for the prisoners shall go free.
So we learn that those who spirits who are wicked are kept in chains of darkness until judgment. (These are they who are preached to in spirit prison.)\
Bottom Line: Good go to Paradise for rest, Bad go to Spirit Prison to be preached too and given another chance.
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I like how Mike Warnke explained the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. He compared it to homemade apple pie. Mmmmmm. Now, he wasn't talking about that frozen store bought stuff. He was talking about the kind Grandmother would make. You cut three equal pieces but you don't take it out of the pie pan. On the outside, we see 3 divisions but on the inside (under the crust) it's all one apple filling. So, I suppose the same can be said of God. On the outside we see 3 divisions (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) but on the inside is one divine essence.
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When it comes to the Godhead, do you believe in Monotheism, Modelism, Binitarianism, Tritheism, Trinitarianism, Henotheism, or Polytheism?For those not familiar with the Lectures on Faith, these are the passages I draw my beliefs from...
The "Lectures on Faith." These seven "lectures on theology" were approved for inclusion in the Doctrine and Covenants by a Conference vote of the LDS Church on August 17, 1835. They appeared in all English editions of the D&C until their unexplained removal in 1921 without a General Conference vote. Lecture Five explicitly teaches that there are two persons in the Godhead:
There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things — by whom all things were created and made . . . They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made and fashioned like unto man.
A question and answer section in Lecture Five confirms its binitarian view of the God:
Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
A. Two: the Father and the Son.
According to the Lectures on Faith, the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit (the two terms were not distinguished at this stage), is not a person, but is the shared "mind" of the Father and Son.
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Here's a link for anyone interested in reading the entire Lectures on Faith. Lectures on Faith ContentsFor those not familiar with the Lectures on Faith, these are the passages I draw my beliefs from...
A Different Take on Paul...
in Christian Beliefs Board
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Traveler, Ezekiel's 2 sticks?