LittleNipper
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Posts posted by LittleNipper
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I think the premise that God is invisible is a very narrow perspective of His nature and purpose. The insistance that only the bible has the answer says that God is a changeable God. This is contrary to my belief and certainly not according to scripture.
Using scripture out of context and rejecting other evidence without looking at the whole cannon seems to be a ploy of the adversary. Just enough truth to give the appearance of authenticity but then subtlely lead away from the real truth of Gods Whole Saving Gospel.
I think the premise that GOD is TOTALLY visible is a very limited human assessment of an all powerful, all knowing, eternal GOD, who can exist everywhere an anywhere at once......
If one wishes to read a verse of scripture in context, all one needs to do is read the entire chapter or even the book.
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Please end this thread, I didn't want this to happen when I wrote my question. The accusations and judgements dislayed here are far from what I expected. I am sorry I started this. God bless you all.
Glenn
I'm with you. My dad had a term for it, "Damned if you do and damned if you don't." I thought my original answer was very sensitive to his question but what apparently was wanting, was a chance at nailing me to the wall. Even my second answer was not really my judgment call. It was meant to get him to perhaps consider things for himself...
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I apologize for the pendantry....but some of the posters have used plurals to paraphrase the verse. It is "fruit is". There is only one fruit. I have heard people make an issue out of that, I don't know if it makes that big a difference but quoting scripture accurately never hurt anyone.
Well a tree will bring forth fruit, and there is a basket of fruit. If one speaks of various fruit, one might be okay in saying fruits. Each attribute of christian growth might be considered a fruit in it's own right. Where one quotes a verse verbatum, it should be as written, but a title is only a title...
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I am asking you a simple question, so please do not insult my intelligence and answer my question.
I have made my position clear about who Jesus Christ is, and what I believe, whom I worship and why. What you highlighted is what you and I and everybody has to do, is to confess the Christ, to do His will, to be baptized, to be faithful, to obey the commandments, to be charitable, to share the Gospel and the love of Christ to every people. That is the work that we MUST do in order to call ourselves disciples of Christ.
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22-25
You have ranted about YOUR personal relationship with Christ and how you believe I do not understand Christianity. I just bore my witness of Christ as my personal Savior. In your opinion, is that testimony of Jesus sufficient, according to your construct, to call myself a Christian and to ascertain salvation?
Please answer the question YES or NOT. Do not digress into some abstract theological conundrum, as usual.
Your attitude speaks for itself. It certainly isn't "christian." I see no patience, kindness, meekness or long suffering. You wanted my opinion, now what are you going to do with it?
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True, Christ is a title but for me, it has a greater meaning what is being given and elevates the person who has this title to GODHOOD.
I use the term Jesus THE Christ.
That is fine ---- not that the GREAT I AM needs elevating. I'm sure HE looks on the heart.
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Just curious nipper...only curiosity...why do you keep saying Christ Jesus when His name is Jesus Christ?
This is a very interesting question...
Actually, Mary & Joseph were not Mr. & Mrs. Christ. JESUS, while he was on the earth was actually known as Jesus of Nazareth. CHRIST is a title which actually means "the anointed." This is what "MESSIAH" means.
I tend to use either JESUS CHRIST or CHRIST JESUS or even JESUS the CHRIST. The ANOINTED JESUS, JESUS the ANOINTED ---- are the very same thing, don't you think?
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Nipper:
I believe the Jesus is the Christ, the ONLY begotten of the Father, the first fruits of the resurrection. I believe He was crucified and Atoned for my sins and the sins for the world. He rose from the grave on the third day and showed Himself to His friends the disciples and I know He lives. He is my Savior, my Redeemer, my Lord and King. I worship Him and know that my faith is sufficient to receive His grace. I have received a remission of my sins through baptism and the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that He is my Savior. I know that if I am faithful to the covenants that I have made I will hear His voice and see His face on that bright morning of the resurrection when the trump will sound from the edge of the universe announcing His coming.
Am I saved in your construct, Nipper?
The reality is that your salvation is between YOU and GOD. It doesn't matter what I think. I might add that it doesn't matter what your church thinks concerning this either. What does trouble me is the part I have highlighted. Up to that point CHRIST sounds like HE is doing the work; however, what I've highlighted says to me that you seem to be doing the work...
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So in other words, "I know that I'm right. Only Christ can set me straight and I refuse to listen to anyone else." The reason that non-LDS are encouraged to post here is to have discussions. Not one-way lectures. Because you have closed your mind and cast away every appearance of respect for our beliefs, you make discussion impossible.
Somehow you seem to imply that nobody else here has accepted Christ into their lives as their Savior. You're wrong. Virtually every single person here has. I have. Are you going to call me a liar?
It's clear enough that you believe in the doctrines common to Born Again Christians. The VAST MAJORITY of all non-LDS Christians do not share your beliefs on those doctrines. They accept the absolute need for the blood of Christ, but they have a different view of Salvation than you. They believe that they can still fall away from God by their own actions. They believe they must continually repent throughout their lives to stay in the covenant with Christ. Catholics are an excellent example. The Catholic Church alone is bigger than all Protestant religions combined. Do you think that God will damn all Catholics to burn in hell for eternitiy for failing to accept your notion of being "Born Again"? You seem willing to say that God will damn all Latter Day Saints for not agreeing with you, so it must apply universally or not at all.
Not in the least. I believe that born-again Christians are found in many "religious" persuasions. I do feel that some mature spiritually at different rates and finally outgrow a particular setting. Some never reach maturity and remain babes in CHRIST JESUS, and some of this maybe the result of false teachings. I do not feel in the least that anyone MUST attend a particualar church in order to receive any special blessings from GOD. This is what a PERSONAL SAVIOR is all about. CHRIST deals with the individual, his particular issues, and his heart...
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Little Nipper,
I am really surprised to find that you are 55 years old, seriously, I thought you were maybe 17. I don't mean that disrespectfully, it's just that your posts tend to not be discussions.......just declarations that don't really respond to anything.
Well, don't be surprised... You see, I'm not a professional religious forum guy. I work 8 to 5 with a break or two and a lunch in between. I consider myself an average Born-again Bible believing Fundamentalist Christian. I was saved from the age of 12.
Those I worship CHRIST JESUS with, at Easton Bible Church in Hainsport, New Jersey; do not consider the church the authority/standard, nor the good pastor for that matter. The BIBLE is our standard. EVERYTHING is measured against the BIBLE and even the BIBLE is understood within its own light and not with "outside" values, nor personal convictions ---- which maybe very difficult for you to comprehend, given your religious background.
I find it very difficult to deal with individuals who seem to feel the BIBLE is somehow insufficent, corrupted, hopelessly intangible, etc... I find that sadly funny. But that maybe simply because I've studied the Bible most of my life and have had dealings with atheists, agnostics and not a few "religious" people.
I do thank GOD for every opportunity HE has provided for me to share HIS GOSPEL of CHRIST. Salvation is a wonderful gift. I wish for everyone to accept it. When I have an opportunity I sew seeds, but reaping is such a blessing...
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Nipper,
The key is that the Lord will attend a prayer meeting of two people. But God's fullness requires so much more.
Aaron, who was high priest, and Miriam complained that Moses was hogging the power and limelight, thinking they were equal to him. Here we had two good people that were coming together for God. But God disagreed with them, as He had something higher, better, and more important than two gathering together. It was having a prophet over the congregation. Miriam was punished with leprosy for a week (seems Aaron was still needed to sacrifice in the Tabernacle, and couldn't do it if he were unclean).
Time and again, good people stood up against Moses and other prophets, and God cast them down for doing so.
IOW, good intentions about Christ and God are nice, but they cannot compete for God's attention, when it comes to His pattern of doing all things through prophets and apostles. Jesus told his apostles, "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you...." On another occasion, Jesus warned those that said, "Lord, Lord, have we not done many miracles in your name, and in your name cast out devils?" At that time, the Lord will tell them that he does not know them, because they have not done His will.
What is His will? To obey the living prophets and apostles. That is the pattern. When they followed Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah, et al, they were blessed. When they disobeyed, the Lord punished the people, regardless of whether they called on His name or not. Paul insisted that the foundation of the Church are the apostles and prophets, with Christ being "the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2). He explained that they are needed, otherwise people would be tossed about by every "wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:11-14).
Can you pray to God and feel His presence? Sure. But to have God's fullness, you have to follow the pattern set up by God in the scriptures. God communicates to mankind primarily through living prophets and apostles. To ignore the living prophets is like embracing the Old Testament, and rejecting the New Testament.
I have accepted CHRIST as my PERSONAL SAVIOR (capitals not meant to upset). I'm HIS and HE is mine. Your religion mixes Old Testament legalism with saving grace and claims authority. Sorry, I will not regress into working for savation, nor letting someone else tell me what CHRIST has to tell me.
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The Savior did not qualify His atonement. Adam's trangression (it was not a sin but a trangression without which we could not be) was his, our sins are ours. Nowhere does the Savior say I will atone for all sins except Adam's and the children of men must carry it forever. My Savior loves me too much for that. JMHO
While I do believe, that my existance is the result of Adam's transgression, I would suggest you take an honest look at a concordance and look up "SIN" and "TRANSGRESSION." The verses might counteract your logic...
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Nipper,
The key is that the Lord will attend a prayer meeting of two people. But God's fullness requires so much more.
Aaron, who was high priest, and Miriam complained that Moses was hogging the power and limelight, thinking they were equal to him. Here we had two good people that were coming together for God. But God disagreed with them, as He had something higher, better, and more important than two gathering together. It was having a prophet over the congregation. Miriam was punished with leprosy for a week (seems Aaron was still needed to sacrifice in the Tabernacle, and couldn't do it if he were unclean).
Time and again, good people stood up against Moses and other prophets, and God cast them down for doing so.
IOW, good intentions about Christ and God are nice, but they cannot compete for God's attention, when it comes to His pattern of doing all things through prophets and apostles. Jesus told his apostles, "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you...." On another occasion, Jesus warned those that said, "Lord, Lord, have we not done many miracles in your name, and in your name cast out devils?" At that time, the Lord will tell them that he does not know them, because they have not done His will.
What is His will? To obey the living prophets and apostles. That is the pattern. When they followed Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah, et al, they were blessed. When they disobeyed, the Lord punished the people, regardless of whether they called on His name or not. Paul insisted that the foundation of the Church are the apostles and prophets, with Christ being "the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2). He explained that they are needed, otherwise people would be tossed about by every "wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:11-14).
Can you pray to God and feel His presence? Sure. But to have God's fullness, you have to follow the pattern set up by God in the scriptures. God communicates to mankind primarily through living prophets and apostles. To ignore the living prophets is like embracing the Old Testament, and rejecting the New Testament.
I would suggest you at least read I Corinthians 13:8 & I Corinthians 14:37. You may also wish to consider that in Matthew 7:22, it isn't what the rejected say but what they do not say that get them rejected.
I would suggest that to most true Christians, what is missing is rather obvious and what those being rejected say speaks volumns to their attitude concerning (hint, hint) what THEY have done. That I feel strongly is what JESUS was/is driving at in this verse. What JESUS says previously should get one ready for the obvious... Unless their concerns are with WORKS ---- (hint, hint).
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Imagine for a moment that your home has always been lighted by the same lamp. It is a beautiful lamp and gives off a very warm ambient light and seems to be sufficient to your needs. Everyone else enjoys this same lamp and agrees.
One day you are approached by someone offering you an additional lamp to light your home. No thank you, I have all the light that I need is the reply. But the stranger persists and explains that this new lamp will light your home in ways you can’t imagine.
Wisely, he accepts the strangers offer and tries the new lamp and discovers that it fills his home with more light than he ever imagined possible. This new lamp amplified the old lamp and lighted areas of his home that were previously darkened and the man was greatly pleased that he was approached and offered this wonderful new light.
The darkness I see is when I concern myself with what heaven will be like for me and what I'll get out of going there, and how I might profit from teaching about such things. I find when I focus entirely on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, through HIS inspired WORD, I'm in a much better lighted place and CHRIST takes care of "me" so much better.
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Nipper, your the one that came onto a web forum run by another faith. I don't think you've been very respectful in the process. In effect, you've walked into someone else's house and started throwing mud at them and making as big of an annoyance of yourself as possible.
Mostly, this is because none of your points make any sense. It's okay, I know all of the attacks on my beliefs by heart. I can see which ones you are attempting to use. But you're not doing a very good job of it. Most people on the site are not going to have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I can at least have a good educated guess based on the scriptures you use. It is never, "Wow, I never thought of that!" It is always, "Oh brother, how boring. Someone is going to try that scripture again." Your delivery and presentation has been sub par. I've seen far far better. And you do not ever actually answer any followup questions -- and if you do, your answers never make any sense.
If I seem annoyed it is only because you seem to want to hijack threads and drag them completely off track, yet you do not seem to have any real point at all with the VAST majority of your posts. More than anything else, what you have accomplished has been this: Spamming threads and overwhelming them with pointless posts -- and thereby preventing anyone else from having an actual discussion relevant to he thread. It's very annoying and it is very disrespectful.
Ummmm ... right ... I will try very hard to restore my faith from this ...
You are welcome to think my tone is hostile. You've gone out of your way to be irritating. A respectful person would not behave that way.
The trouble is, that is THE ONLY THING YOU DO. It doesn't make for much of discussion, but it's a great recipe for people to find you to be very annoying.
I don't see the point in wasting any more of my time responding to you. What's the point?
"Respectful" does not mean to agree with. I have for the most part limited myself to the Christian Beliefs Board, so as to not to be disruptive to a religious group I understand only second handedly.
I feel strongly, as you likely feel concerning your own regard, that I'm a Christian. Therefore, I feel that I can present to you my understanding of Biblical terms, interpretations, doctrines, and perhaps even my testimony without attempting to be hostile, but at the same time not in anyway attempting to shield Mormons from a reality that perhaps they likely feel genuinely uncomfortable with.
If that is the case, I'm very sorry, but I must answer to a higher authority. CHRIST says through HIS WORD, that people are going to hate me simply because of my belief in CHRIST JESUS. I do accept that cross. I do not hit people over the head with it; however, I will not back away from what I see as Righteous Biblical truths.
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Hmm...after the first paragraph, I can discount any of the dispensatory prophets witness now. Now, we can visit the New Testament for the accounts of Paul, Stephen, and others that stand as first hand witnesses and after the Savior death can be thrown out also. Can you see your own demise?
If we are not personal witness, first hand, we need to investigate our own lives and ask why not.
Well, in the case of Stephen, we are presented with a vision he speaks out at his stoning as seeing. Both Paul & John have visions also. But I would only question if indeed they saw GOD's T-O-T-A-L glory, or one veiled or a dream. So I do not see a demise but an honest appraisial.
Interestingly, NONE claimed to see the FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT united together. None of the Bible characters claim to have seen the FATHER. Only Stephen claims that he was seeing JESUS standing to the right of GOD's glory and he was being stoned at the time.
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Has anyone seen the trinity god?
Has anyone ever seen GOD in HIS entirety, could be just as easily asked. The Bible says no.
The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen GOD (John 1:18) except the LORD JESUS CHRIST. In Exodus 33:20, GOD declares, "You cannot see MY face, for no one may see ME and live." These Scriptures seem to contradict other Scriptures which describe various people "seeing" GOD. For example, Exodus 33:19-23 describes Moses speaking to GOD, "face to face.” How could Moses speak with GOD "face to face" if no one can see GOD's face and live? In this instance, the phrase "face to face" is a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. GOD and Moses were speaking to each other "as if" they were two human beings having a close conversation.
In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw GOD appearing as an angel – he did not truly see GOD. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen GOD (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen HIM appearing as an angel. JESUS was GOD in the flesh (John 1:1,14) so when people saw HIM, they were seeing GOD. So, yes, GOD can be "seen" and many people have "seen" GOD. At the same time, no one has ever seen GOD revealed in all HIS glory. In our fallen human condition, if GOD were to fully reveal HIMSELF to us, we would be consumed. Therefore, GOD veils HIMSELF and appears in forms in which we can "see" HIM. However, this is different than seeing GOD with all HIS glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of GOD, images of GOD, and appearances of GOD – but no one has ever seen GOD in all HIS fullness (Exodus 33:20). The TRINITY would be the absolute fullness of GOD, and so no, no human has seen the TRINITY.
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I think that your purpose here on this forum is well stated right there: "demonstrating what I see as inconsistencies" -- in other words, you are here to tell the "Mormons" why they are wrong and save them for their false religion. To do so, you will pick their beliefs apart one by one in hopes that you can sow enough seeds of doubt and that some of us will "wake up" from our delusions. Sound about right?
I have not seen any real effort on your part to understand any of our beliefs. What I have seen is tremendous efforts to prove that our beliefs are all wrong. Why would anyone listen to someone with so little respect or regard for others?
You fail to realize that your entire approach, tone and attitude comes across condescending, self-righteous and belittling. For those reasons, it is simply non-productive.
Many of us, myself included, have spent our entire lives being berated and verbally assaulted for our beliefs. I'm still here and I'm still holding strong to my belief in the Restored Gospel. Do you seriously think that more of the same from you will change anything?
As for a standard of correctness, there is none better than God himself. I have it from Him that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that through him, God restored the fullness of the Gospel to the earth. That is where I stand.
If as you say you are set in your beliefs, then you can fear nothing from me. If you have doubts, then that is maybe why you demonstrate such a berating and hostile tone. I'm not here to insult anyone, I simply disagree and that should not trouble you ----------- if you are sure of your faith.
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No there is absolutely nothing explicit in anything I said or anything anybody quoted. So I am at a total and complete loss what your point is. You've apparently decided to hijack a thread that is about the Trinity and the Godhead and discuss original sin. Why?
Those that participate on this thread are the ones asking the questions. Does your question above have anything to do with the TRINITY? No, it does not. Ask me a TRINITY question and I will provide a TRINITY answer, otherwise, who is hyjacking whom and how?
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Did I say that?
There is really no way around it unless you wish to contradict the verses you selected. The implications are explicit...
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Nipper, if you don't have something to add to the conversation, then back away so that those who want to have a dialogue can do so.
Conversations are two-way.
You may wish to consider that point as you review the posts above.
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1.) I see no conceivable way that this verse has anything to do with this thread.
2.) The meaning of the verse is obvious. We cannot save ourselves. We are filthy. No matter how many good things we do in life, we are sinful and need the blood of Christ. Our iniquities have led us to stray from God and we must return to him, repent and gain his forgiveness.
It's very simlar to much of the imagry you will find throughout Isaiah.
"all we like sheep have gone astray"
"though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow"
"Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:" (people who are tied to their sins like beasts to their burdens.)
Every Latter Day Saint believes these things. We believe in Jesus Christ and we believe we are hopelessly lost if we are without him. So what is your point?
So you do believe we are born sinful and that this (sin) is not a choice?
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Do you have a point and does it have anything whatsoever to do with this thread?
Even a foolish man is counted wise if he remains silent...
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Christ never indicated that man's wisdom is worthless. He indicates that those who put their OWN wisdom over God's is worthless. That their vanity gets in the way of truth.
If a man's wisdom doesn't count for eternity, then what value is it on a scale from 1 to 10 (where 10 counts for everything and 1 counts for nothing)?
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Would that include YOUR "wisdom"?
If it's not Biblical then most certainly!
What's so hard to understand about the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead?
in Christian Beliefs Board
Posted
I'm sorry but Romans 1:20 say the following:
Romans 1:20 (New International Version)
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.