Jim108

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Posts posted by Jim108

  1. There is support for divine punishment in scripture. On the one hand, the chastening of our Heavenly Father is like that of an Earthly Father. Whenever your child disobeys, as a parent, you instill the punishment for that particular act of disobedience. Not because you are being mean or unfair (as children sometimes do), but because you love them and are teaching them that there are consequences for their actions.

    One aspect of this punishment is the withdraw of the Holy Spirit. Another aspect of the consequences that are used to teach us humility and to bring us to repentance.

    However, there is another type of divine judgment that our Heavenly Father has used and will use. This is known as his wrath being poured out. In this sense, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their progression into sinful desires to the point that their whole society became wicked and vile. He also used armies and came against Israel because of their Idolatry. He even used Israel to come against the people of Canaan who were being judged and their land taken from them and given to them (because of the promise of Abraham).

    So, yes, there is evidence for divine punishment for both the righteous and the wicked. And, then there are just things that happen because they happen and not a result of God's interaction. In this sense is the reason for the passage that says that it rains on both the righteous and wicked.

    How are we to determine whether or not it is the Chastening of a loving Heavenly Father, an outright judgment to bring us to repentence to call upon him, or just an aspect of the natural world around us? We do not know.

    One could argue that 9/11 is a result of Judgment of God upon America. However, one would say that it was not because it was just the result of those individuals exercising their moral agency. Another could say that Hurricane Katrina was the judgment of God that came upon New Orleans. Again, another could say that it was the cause of natural elements.

    What we do know is that there are going to be many things that are going to happen in the last days before the Coming of Christ. Some of these things are going to be because God causes them to happen or that he allows them to happen, or they happen as a direct result of man's moral agency and are the consequences of those decisions.

    Your belief makes me sad.

  2. People who say they deserve salvation are not christians. Christians know they do not deserve salvation. Salvation is not earned, it is a gift of God for those who believe. Jesus did it all. To say that we need to add to what Jesus has done takes away from Jesus. Once you believe in Jesus then the works come. Works however do not earn salvation. We can do nothing by our own hands to earn it. The focus should always be on Jesus. We are dead without Him.

  3. My view of punishment for sin has always been that there isn't any -- there are simply consequences to the choices we make, some of which might be natural consequences that occur in this life and some which might be eternal consequences that are imposed at the final judgement.

    There seem to plenty of examples, however, of God punishing people on earth during their mortal lives for sin (Korihor, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Nephite/Lamanite cities at Christ's coming, the flood).

    Do you think sin ever brings misfortune in this life as a punishment from God?

    You do have Earthly consequences for your sins. If we lie, we create problems that could result in negetive consequences. If we live a gay lifestyle we could receive a leathal disease. These problems are not put apon us by God but by our bad choices, aka our sins.

    However, all sin has been paid for in full by Jesus. Even the sins of your future. You need only repent and to believe. God does not bring misfortune down on us. He loves you and has healed you. You just need to have faith and to believe it. Jesus did it all. That, you can be sure of. I hope this helps.

  4. So Jim, does one have to be baptized and observe what Christ has commanded or was he just kidding?

    For salvation none of this is required, however I do not know one Born Again who has not been baptized and who does not "try" to do what Christ commands. We always come up short, but we try. Salvation is not earned, it is given when we first believe by Grace. Nothing by my hands is enough to earn salvation. Jesus alone is enough. Thank you Jesus.

  5. My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

    Oddly enough, in their very next breath, they usually say, "all you have to do is repent."

    Interesting.

    Do nothing.

    Repent.

    Am I the only one that sees the flaw?

    I have thought long and hard about this to try to help people who believe this way to understand. Since I live in the Bible Belt, it's important for me to understand this.

    I have boiled it down to a misunderstanding of the word grace.

    From what I understand, they seem to feel that God gives grace because He is loving and merciful, and that a person doesn't have to do anything to get this grace, or that a person cannot do anything to earn this grace. This is true, but they apply it to being saved, and not to the means whereby we are saved.

    The most obvious question that they really can't anwer is that, if that is the case, why isn't everyone saved (saved in their view)?

    To many, the answer is simply, "Because He chose us." It's like they need to feel they are safe with no action of their own. But, think about this logically.

    The Bible never teaches grace is something you don't have to do anything to obtain.

    John 1:

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    No scripture is more clear that this power that He gives is for us to do something with. If we do nothing with it then we cannot become. In my more modern words, "Just because He built the bridge that allowed the gulf to be crossed does not mean we are placed on the other side without walking across it." If it were that simple, there would be no need of the bridge.

    Yes, He provided the way; He alone; there is nothing we can do to provide the means on our own. But, if we don't use the means He provided, there is no other way across.

    His grace was building the bridge, and then giving us a road map of how to get across it. Then, He placed markers along the way whereby we can plot and chart our course. Also, in a way incomprehensible to us, He uses His Spirit to help guide us along the path He made. What He cannot do is walk the path for you. If He could then all would be saved.

    So, grace is not "free passage," but the passage He built and the help He gives to reach the destination. All these things He provided for us ARE the power He gives to us to become, or reach the other side.

    I challenge anyone to come up with a scripture that says we don't have to keep the commandments, or there is nothing we have to do. You won't find it. All you will find is a false interpretation of scriptures that say we have to believe in God with all our might, mind, and strength... meaning we must do something about it.

    You see, without the bridge, markers, and spiritual help, our works mean nothing. But, with God's help, all things are possible. The power He gives us through His grace DOES allow us to reach the other side.

    My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

    Not true, you have to believe in Jesus. Grace comes the moment you believe and it is done. The problem here is that the "Good News" is "almost" to good to be true. But, it is true. Jesus did it all. When you say Jesus "and"...... something else, you take away from Jesus. When you believe in Jesus you believe that he is God, Christ, Born of a virgin and rose from the dead. You must also believe in His teachings. No, you do not understand "born again".

  6. I don't believe it...I think you are making it up. Source?

    Is this for real? A day does not go by without a mention of this kind of abuse in the paper (Salt Lake City Tribune). Do you think that these families are healthy, nurturing families. These women and children live in real torment. Their pain is real. Their scars are also real. For you to deny it is an outrage. You want a source, just google it and give yourself a few weeks to go through it. I see them at church gatherings (those who have seperated from their former life) and also in town. Their self esteem is so low they won't give you eye contact. They hide in the shadows. These people are not LDS but they are a result of its history. I understand that. However, these people are real and they need our help. They need your help. I know your church is already helping. They know it is a problem. You should know that too.

  7. Women in monogamous relationships are also often abused and their children neglected. For that matter, some men are abused by their wives, physically as well as otherwise. Nobody has a monopoly, and probably not a majority, on abuse and neglect. That is part of the human condition resulting from .... whatever, maybe the Fall. We are poor, even though we do not practice polygamy. So a Calvinisitic view of the practice doesn't yield consistent results.

    I live in Utah, I can say that families in polygamy are almost always abused in some way. It is ugly by every measure. I would say that these families in Utah and other states do have a monopoly or darn close to it. Your statement does not stand. You need to see it.

  8. A friend and I were having a discussion today. He said that thinking about something sinful is as bad as actually doing it in God's eyes. For example, if I see an attractive man and have inappropriate thoughts about him, even though I didn't act on those thoughts, God still sees that as a sin.

    What does everyone think?

    It is a sin, however it was paid in full almost 2000 years ago. Repent and live in Grace. Thank you Jesus

  9. Polygamy is practiced near where I live. It is not of the LDS church, but it is a result of Joseph Smiths "revelation". The women in these relationships are often abused and battered. They are seperated from the community by their husband and are unable to get help. Most are poor and have little access to health care. The children are usually neglected, malnourished, abused and not educated.

    No, I do not desire multiple wives. It is a sin.

    Did I break a rule here monitors? My intention is to state my belief.

  10. Not only must you be a member of the LDS Church in order to enter the temple, but you must also pass a worthiness interview. Not even all members of the Church are permitted to enter. Non-members are allowed to walk through the temples during pre-dedication open houses.

    What's up with your magic underwear?

    (Smile) Well, they're not magic. They represent covenants that we make inside the temples, and they help remind us of those covenants. Because they are sacred to us, we wear them beneath our clothing, instead of as an outer symbol.

    Why don't you have the cross on your church building? I thought you said you believed in Jesus Christ.

    We do believe in Jesus Christ. We believe that after His ministry, he suffered for our sins, and then died and was resurrected, making it possible for us, too, to be resurrected and live again with Him someday. We choose to focus on His resurrection instead of on His death.

    B]Not only must you be a member of the LDS Church in order to enter the temple, but you must also pass a worthiness interview. Not even all members of the Church are permitted to enter. Non-members are allowed to walk through the temples during pre-dedication open houses.

    No person living is ever worthy without Jesus. He is the only way. With this in mind, without Jesus no person can enter your temple. It would be an empty place. You can not do it alone. I hope I did not break your rules regarding posting. I only wanted to make a point with total respect for all people on this forum and your religion.

    Thanks, Jim

  11. It's not a matter of earthly values, but of how we responded as converted souls. Can any sin separate me from God? Yes. But, as a Christian, how I respond to someone making out in my church will be different than how I respond to the overweight church member taking a third piece of pie at a church potluck. Both may need to repent, but the one willing to mock the house of God demonstrates a hardness of heart, and a spirit of mockery that my Bible gives me plenty of warning about. So, while all sin is enough to damn an unrepentant soul, not all sin is the same.

    Yes, love the sinner hate the sin. But that love will ook different, depending on context. Jesus called the Pharisees vipers, He turned over the money-changers tables in the Temple, and He gave the rich young man a response that He knew would expose him as a money-loving hypocrite. Yet he was gentle with the Samaritan woman, the woman caught in adultery, and with the crowds that mocked him at his crucifixion.

    A gay couple making out in a religious holy place, while likely intoxicated calls for loving, but definite removal. BTW, the Apostle Paul demonstrated the same rationale when he called for removal of a fornicator from the church--perhaps, if we give him over to Satan, he'll come to his senses and repent.

    Jesus spent time with sinners, but his gentleness and favor went to the open-hearted, not to mockers. Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out? The latter would not indicate hate and judgment, but rather a holy respect for the house of God. If they disrupters want to repent, they still can.

    Would you, as a pastor, really allow mockers, for example, to disrupt your service with taunts and disturbance...or would you have your ushers escort them out?

    Lets cast them out? Who are we to cast out anyone. In my church (no religion) they would be welcome with all of us other sinners. I keep hearing on this forum about getting kicked out of the religion for one reason or another. That is not Christs church. There is way too much religion today and not enough faith. Get rid of your religion and turn to Jesus. Why is this so hard to understand? Jesus should be the start, middle and end to your faith, not some religion. .....and I am not talking just to the LDS here, it is all religion. I loath religion and I love Jesus. I can not tell you how many services (different religions) I have been to and not one mention of Jesus. People here say I point fingers. I am jus bringing out the fact that pointing fingers at sinners is wrong. It lifts you up to say I am just a minor sinner but he.....he is a major sinner. Look at how much better I am. This is what you are doing. It is wrong. In this square, where all the shouting took place, just think how quiet it would be if only the non sinners could shout. You could hear a pin drop. Do you not know that Jesus died for all our sins and yes even these gay sinners. Jesus loves them equally. They need love and teaching. Not mockery.

    I know my words are hated by you. It is truth and I stand firm. fire away.

  12. Yet Christ took issue with money changers and animal salesmen in the temple complex, so he apparently has some thoughts about what is appropriate behavior on sacred ground.

    Yes He did. But, Jesus is God and is without sin. My point, lets us not be so quick to point fingers at other sinners. Was their actions wrong? Yes. Are we any better then they? No. So lets bring them into our church and teach, and forgive and love.

  13. I may still wrestle against temptations, but I'm not sure this suggestion of moral equivalence is useful here. Mocking God is sin, and so is my frustration at other drivers. But, they are not the same. God does say to love our enemies and sinners, but also tells us not to walk in the counsel of the ungodly, nor sit with mockers. And again, not to cast pearls before swine. So...sure, we can pray that God will convict their souls, that they will repent, receive Christ, and forsake their sins. But, it would be appropriate to do so as we escort them and their sinful behavior off of dedicated holy grounds. BTW, if a couple were making out in a church, I'd give the same answer, regardless of how many genders were involved.

    Prison chaplain, you are looking at this through the lens of Earthly values. Sin is black and white to God. It either is or is not. Any one sin without Jesus to save us, is enough to seperate you from God for eternity. Lets us not think so high of ourselves as to seperate the really bad sinners from the not so bad sinners. We all sin. ...and we all need Jesus equally. The answer to this problem is love and forgiveness. We need to embrace these people, love them, teach them and forgive them. If Jesus were in the flesh, I can see him enjoying a glass of wine with them and teaching them in a loving way. Lets not point fingers. We all sin and we all need Jesus, for without Him we are lost.

  14. Where exactly is hell located? Is hell a place.. or a state of mind? I think the idea of hell being eternal torture is repulsive and no loving god would allow a place to exist.

    So yes.. to me.. it is a laughing matter. Damnation on the other hand.. is not.

    BMY, just because I can't tell you where hell is, does not mean it does not exist. I do not know where heaven is and I know it exists. I know heaven and hell exist because God said so. As far as being repulsed by such things, read the old testament and there are examples of God who brings on events that do not "seem" so loving. God gives, takes and does what He needs to do. He loves and forgives us. All we need do is to believe in Jesus. Lets trust in Him. I hope this helps.

  15. First, if you believe in Jesus your sins have been washed away. You can have comfort in that. Try to do better in the future.

    Two, Hell is real, some here joke about it but it is no laughing matter.

    Three, I do not understand a mentality of porn is bad but multiple wives is OK. Both are wrong. I know the LDS church does not allow polygamy but many of you would partake if allowed. A poll was just taken on this suject in this forum to support this. It just makes no sense.

  16. OK, I got you guys on fire. Polygamy is a sin to the traditional Christian. I just wanted to bring out this difference. I agree that we can disagree. However, I would say that your church's position on this subject is very skewed. Thank you for letting me debate the other side of this subject. I know most of you want me to go away for good, but that would shelter you to only one view. Or is that what you want?

  17. John 17

    1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

    10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are bone:

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

    26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    I find it difficult to understand why others find it impossible to see that Jesus is not speaking to a mirror here. It seems very clear to me that he is speaking to Father. He explains that He and Father are one and He wishes all His followers to be one with Them.

    We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    Do you not believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost?

    I can worship the Father and worship the Son and not have that worship diminish nor has Their glory diminished.

    You are very close here, there is another answer. Take away the religion and think with the spirit.

  18. I don't get that this is what Jim is saying. I think that he is just saying that in order for one to leave the Catholic faith and become mormon that he would have to deny the "true" (meaning the catholic understanding) of the nature of God.

    Am I close Jim?

    Yes, that is what I believe, thank you.