smitchell88

If it is part of a plan then it is not a choice, although I see your point. You can choose to be part of the plan but after that, within the plan, your will is not free. It was explained to me by the missionaries that God put us on Earth so that we can experience mortal life, and it's like a marathon and everyone is trying to get to the end of it, except the lazy audience. Then I feel like a chewtoy. I don't like being subjected to such things, and that is one reason why I object to premortal existence. Not just because I don't see it in the Bible, but because to me it is senseless. I can comprehend a person being on Earth and having to find their way TO God, but I can't comprehend why a person would have to find their way BACK when it would be easier and more sensible to just leave us there... And please don't give me "There are some things we will never understand" lol

I understand that and no it would not potentially make us aliens to Heaven because that's where we're from in the first place, according to your doctrine. Right? It's hard to be a foreigner in your own country. The verses you give me could have several meanings. It is my belief that the Bible was not meant to be taken literally. I have a problem with Romans 8:29... if we are predestinated then we have no free will. Take jail as an example. No matter what the reason for your trial, if the judge decides you are going to jail, there is nothing you can do about it, no? The rest I can accept, but my belief is that they could have more than one meaning and interpretation.

Lol.... I didn't mean it disrespectfully but if you take the term literally, and I have mentioned it in earlier posts, having lived natively on another planet makes us alien to Planet Earth. It's funny you mention the Catholic thing because I've said it to my mom before because that's who I view it... People sometimes fail to see the negative of what they believe and unfortunately the Catholics literally believe they are consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus which IS cannibalistic and I don't prefer it...

I do mean well and I must defend myself here... some of you have responded to my tone, but like I mentioned I detected sarcasm in posts regarding my questions before I even got here.. Hm. Maybe I've got a different attitude that you're not used to and you think it's vindictive and cynical but it's not. =\ There are many things I cannot believe and do not understand. If you have a builder who is not honest in his construction work I would not be keen on going inside the building. A lot of Christian beliefs do not apply to me anymore, but there are several things that I have learned about the LDS faith that contradict what I learned growing up as a Roman Catholic. When you guys talk about God and Jesus Christ and how they love us and all that stuff that EVERY Christian talks about.... it sounds really nice and consistent with traditional Christian beliefs. But then you get down to the specifics, like how the LDS faith was founded, the history of it, the history of its founder, humans as alien residents on Earth, being literal children of god... Take your pick. I know that's why you think you guys are unique and correct and everything, but there are also things in the Bible that warn of false teachings. How can you win a war in several against one? It's every confusing - again - I do have to justify my beliefs and assessments sometimes but I am not asking anyone to jump on the bandwagon with me. There have been a very few of you have told me it's the Holy Spirit and that you just believe it, but there are several more who tell me it's fact and true and I don't understand why, yet. FYI I didn't come on here to get answers just from you guys. My husband and I have been meeting with local missionaries and have been invited to recreational activities, although we're not keen on service... don't think I'm a fluke, either. These are serious questions.

Closed-mindedness would mean that I would not be asking questions at all but instead would be blatantly telling you that you are blatantly wrong, which I have not been doing. I have been telling you, and everyone on here, that I don't believe it and have been asking for concrete reasons why it IS true. I do think that it more than likely is not and I have several good reasons [i think anyway] why... Is that really too much to ask?? I am not looking for evidence why you are wrong, I am looking for evidence why you are right. Again, "the burden of proof rests on that which needs to be proven, not that which needs to be disproven." In looking for proof and good evidence, I have found very little that agrees with your faith as compared to "apostolic" Christian churches... You remember when, before you converted, mom would "inadvertently" nag you and -brother- about religion, especially the Catholic church? Well I am in the same boat as you were then, I guess. Why was the Catholic church right?? Why did it tell us to take communion and go through baptism and First Communion and all that when it was clearly NOT in the general Christian doctrine? Why did we believe that Mary appeared to several people; or that the Pope was always chosen by God, after having been in prayer and fasting for a period of time, and was finally announced? [Do not tell me we now know it is a fallacy, keep in mind the word "principle," please]

Okay so assuming I am a child is not insulting but me assuming that you guys are just ignorant is... wow, what a revelation. Thanks! =) Gracious people... which is why in the first several posts before mine I detected a decent amount of sarcasm. Because gracious people are never sarcastic... I was neither condescending nor cruel, either, and I am sorry you interpreted it that way. I do not think I am better than anyone or superior, I just find some things hard to believe. If the people here have truly been gracious, they sure have a funny way of showing it. Although I owe them an apology. To the Traveler: "As to your question about a seer stone. I do not have access to one and I do not have any method to verify anything claimed concerning seer stones. I do not know any critic that has better access than I do. Therefore, seer stones are a non-issue for me and I see nothing to be gained is pursuing innuendo that cannot be tested. If you have something worthwhile for consideration that can be verified – please feel free to offer it." Uhm, isn't that what faith is? An innuendo, in a sense?? The difference is that we have evidence and many other things to confirm that electrons exist, whereas the only thing you have to tell me that the BoM is factual is "Because God told me to believe it!" and many other conveniences. You know the first parts of Nephi [yeah, I've actually read through it] sound a lot like a mixture between: Noah's Ark, Exodus, and Sodom and Gomorrah. You know, where the people were so evil God was going to destroy them [Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gomorroah, in case you haven't read them], and then leaving the region for fear of persecution and a more promising land [Exodus]. Hmmm... ...I meant Moses never actually SAW God. He saw a big flame in a burning bush, the presence of God. If God is a flame why don't we relate him to Hapheastus? Or Brighid? I don't know where you guys learned your English [or Old English] and maybe mine is different but last I checked the flame and the actual "personage," as is used a lot, are two different things. If I told you that Vishnu appeared to me and told me to follow him and there are ancient records of his civilization and it was the one true faith then you'd be hard pressed to convert, I tell you that. Just as you would if I told you [all other things aside, like I think we can all agree that the Jews came from the modern-day middle eastern region and all the facts that go along with it...same principle] the modern-day Jews are really Native Americans that migrated from America before Jesus' birth... whoa! Yet you expect people to believe your story and can't even justify many things without using only your faith. I came here to seek understanding, not "Because we believe it," and instead I got all these reasons why you think it could be true. Again the issue was not to disprove, but to understand and have something concrete. I hate to sound like a broken record but I don't think anyone is actually grasping the concept of "If you tell me it's true then give me a good reason why." Unfortunately the burden of proof rests on that which needs to be proven, not disproven, or assumed, and all you have are assumptions and convenient connections. =\ I am not asking you to take my personal beliefs as fact, and I am not evangelizing to the whole world. Maybe not you in particular, but you as a church are, and I think I am entitled to something...precise, real, solid, substantial... tangible. Need I throw any other words in there to get the meaning across? If all you have to tell me is "Because I believe it" then fine, tell me. But do not dance around the fact that you very likely and possibly do not have the one truth... I, too, have to justify what I believe, although I am not asking anyone to believe it except myself.... I think the problem here is that you guys do not understand my questions and are having trouble answering them. Again, I could have left well enough alone until I had all these claims thrown on me and no one has been able to live up to them. There are even questions that Christianity in general fails to answer. But if you have the truth I need to know why, right? =\

Who WOULD come here to be converted?? Catholics do not believe in reincarnation. That is a pagan idealogy and there are very few Christians who will accept it. I was invited, you're right. For once. The reason I said we must agree to disagree isn't because I can't defend myself but because obviously we cannot agree on much and I have already wasted a good amount of time on here. I am not getting any answers whatsoever... my basic one was with faith alone put aside, what do you have to make you believe it?? Everyone just kinda dances around it but that's okay... Speaking of true: 1. being in accordance with the ACTUAL state or conditions; conforming to REALITY or FACT; not false: a true story. I see I am the only one with common sense and logic. =\

Lol... Again. You can have 50 people tell me the sky is purple because God said so but that doesn't make it TRUE.

It is like trying to tell a child why Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist... Yeah, and I assumed you all were idiots, and followed blindly. If you cannot see that what you believe does not match up with the rest of the teachings, then I am sorry for you. You may think I pick at Joseph Smith, but in the Bible it says to know a prophet not by his teachings and words but by his deeds. [if Joseph Smith never lived we wouldn't even have the LDS Church.] Joseph Smith used magick. Bottom line. He lied about many things and even went to court for it [for being a "disorderly person and an impostor" by a court in nearby Bainbridge]. He used a seer's stone to find the tablets, and before the tablets he was paid as an unsuccessful treasure hunter... He made up God telling him something so that he could have more than one wife and get away with it. That shows his character. Why would you want to follow somebody like that?? You may say that a lot of important people in the Bible used what we would call today magick. To me it is all the same thing. Spells and prayers are the same. Miracles and magick are the same. However, the Christian does not think like that and that is why it is an issue concerning Christian religions. I bet most of you would agree that the men and women executed and jailed during the Salem witch trials needed it, and it was not unorthodox, but because His Holiness Joseph Smith practiced magick 200 years later it is OKAY. Moses did not literally see God as man-like. Did you know that God really has no form, but he is anthropomorphic because we cannot in our human minds reconcile what he really looks like, because the only idea we have is of man? I think it rather arrogant of YOU to believe that you are right about everything, and that you are a saint. Wow... I have been told I am wise in my discernment concerning religion. I do not get a big head over it because I realize often that I am wrong and relent. I do not tell you I am right about everything, I just cannot understand why you believe what you do, especially after having done so much research myself. By the way, I do not myself have the original, accepted, and true teachings, and I don't claim to. I have been told them but I do not hold them myself. However, there are so many facts that you and other LDS believers simply ignore because God didn't say they were right or your prophet didn't, or they said they were wrong or whatever. Even though it is right in front of your face. The Bible should not be taken literally. It is not historically accurate, but it has much more historical correspondence to actual occurences than does the Book of Mormon. The Nephites and Lamanites [to answer someone's earlier question about "How would I know"] wouldn't have left anything behind because they never came to America. But if they did it would be the ancient artifacts of the Natives to all the Americas. Who now, by the way, and have for a very, very, very long time, believe in a very pagan-like theology although they do not adhere to the claims of being Pagan... If you cannot take the character and morals of your first Prophet and see that it is not good, then I truly feel sorry for you. Most of your teachings today are very good, although many of them contradict the Old and New Testament. But you cannot call yourself the one true church, because you are not, and you cannot tell everyone in the world that you have the truth, because you do not. And neither do I. I was trying to get answers, real, believable, concrete answers that did not have faith and the Book of Mormon as a foundation because they are, again, compromised and in this case irrelevant. If all you have is that, then it's useless. I'll get information from someone who actually knows what they're talking about and can actually back up what they are telling me before they ask me to believe it and tell me it's the truth...

You know I am sick and tired of people telling me what I think or don't understand or need to believe. Nicole this has not confirmed your initial assessment into my interrogation. What everyone is skimming over is this: It is not reconcilable and if you are going to tell me something is right you need to have something solid! We all know the sky is blue [well actually it doesn't have a color but that's beside the point], but if you told me the sky was purple, you need to have something other than "I believe it" or "God said so." I think you don't remember what it used to be like before you converted to Mormonism.... By the way, we didn't walk up to the missionaries, they walked up to us.... I could have just as easily left it alone until someone started talking about truth and being aliens [yes, if you're from another planet whether it be Pluto or the "Home Planet" you are an alien to Earth] and God being a man before he became God, and then I investigated because that is SO wrong compared to the ORIGINAL, ACCEPTED, and TRUE general teachings of the Christian church that have been around for 2,000 years. . . Now the other denominations do not have everything right but they do have the basics, and they are legit whether you believe it or not. I do not personally believe the same as everyone else but it's the principle of the situation...

My honest opinion is that there is no one true church. I have had to many experiences to believe that crock. My life has recently been blessed as well, and I haven't been to church in 3 years. I disagree with many Catholic teachings and many ideologies within the Judeo-Christian-Muslim pantheon... And yes I do understand your history and theology... my mom used to tell me that about the Catholic church but I understand that just as well. The problem is because I reject it you think I don't understand. In reality, I reject it because I DO understand... I still don't think that particular faith is historically credible. Maybe it is true for you and those others only, but it is not true for everyone, and cannot be for everyone because of so many complications. I can't seem to reconcile many things... I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't originally going to entertain the idea until my sister "They Call Me Mom" posted for me. The BOM is not the most historically accurate, it is the most mythologically reasonable... it plugs in, but does not have any evidence. Also in the Bible it is taught of a false prophet, and to beware of him... I guess that's out the window! I have every reason to question the BOM and the LDS teachings because I have people telling me it is true and trying to convert me. How are my questions not relevant? The credibility has not been confirmed, and the noncredibility of your Prophet's actions in his child-/young-adulthood have not been justified... AGAIN, the fact of the matter is it is being presented as truth with nothing to back it up. I need something concrete with believable origins... I have not received anything as of yet. That is my intention. Until I am completely and reasonably convinced I will stick to what I know to really make sense and has historical and scientific basis... You probably don't care, but you should at least understand my intent...

The electron exists according to our current paradigm. Obviously. The BOM is nothing but convenient explanations... I am no longer a Catholic and so that was irrelevant. There are so many things I asked about or implied of that still have not been answered. It always reverts back to, "Well you have to have faith," or "The Book of Mormon is so accurate!" or "She doesn't understand the theology." I understand the theology very well, as well as the historicity and the logic, and because I understand it so well I don't get how anyone can believe it. THAT is the problem. By the way, what do you think a seer's stone is?? I guess you don't if you deny that Joseph Smith used magick. I also wonder how do you justify all the tall tales he told? It may seem like I am picking but I think it is relevant...

Loudmouth Mormon: No I would not because such things do not exist. I have found beliefs for myself and I want to investigate the church to understand it and learn about it. Wow I have never seen so many convenient references in my life...As far as the Bible suggesting things, it also suggests that the Earth is flat and that the sun is the center of the universe, and thanks to intelligent, open-minded people we now know those are not true. Because there is no evidence, in the Bible or real life, that we ever existed before "coming" to Earth, you cannot tell me that the testimonies of those who came before us prove to us that the Earth is billions of years old. As I recall, some very intelligent scientists discovered these things, namely Charles Darwin for evolution, not some spirits.... The whole point here is to NOT use the BOM as a reference since in this discussion it is in a very compromised situation. The Godhead is totally separate. They are all One, but at the same time they are separate beings. Just like ice, water, and steam are all separate, but they all come from one source - water, or in this case God. You only say that the original teachings have not been valid because this is what you were told and just because this is the way religion works, I doubt you were taught unbiasedly. Even when I was Catholic I was taught with bias... I don't know if any of you were ever told anything other than he was a great prophet, but Joseph Smith was known for lying and making things up, and he was a magic user. He used a seer's stone. Besides your faith, there is no credibility or evidence for what you believe. It is all very convenient the things that "plug in" and make sense when you compare them to the Bible. I did not come ill-prepared. If what I know concerning your beliefs didn't come straight from a missionary's mouth, I'll be darned. I have had several "lessons" and if there is something more that I am not going to find out unless or until I join the church then that is just deceitful. I have been given many explanations of things but never any real answers. Again, if someone is going to tell me that something is true, they need to have something concrete. Faith and the BOM are not concrete when it supposedly concerns one's salvation. You know that link to The Maya and Mormonism looked interested until I started reading it and it said "LDS scholars." Why not just regular theologians and archaeologists? Oh because then it wouldn't agree with what is currently believed by the LDS church.... I do thank the person for their sentiments in commending me for finding something that works for me. I am just trying to get something solid... if I told you that the Nephites before leaving Jerusalem were actually Native Americans and the first people were Native American and moved to Jerusalem because God told me that everyone else was wrong, how would you react?

I'm not baptist, either. I don't think anything is bad or evil, I just don't think it's credible. The Book of Mormon, since it is a compromised source, is NOT legit evidence for anything. Again, we have records of the Hebrews, and of the Egyptians, the Chinese, Mesopotamian, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Aboriginee... the only source for the Nephites and Lamanites is the BOM and your imaginiation. I am not asking for skeletons of the Nephites, I am asking for someone to explain why this is so credible when there is obviously nothing to stand on. If someone is going to tell me they have the truth they need something to back it up, and I mean something solid, not just "But it all fits together! Go home and pray about it!" That's not solid. Religion is a serious issue to so many people. The LDS teachings contradict a lot of the basic, original teachings of those within the Judeo-Christian-Pantheon [though the main difference in those is the idea of Jesus Christ as a prophet rather than a Savior]. If I were a Muslim and converted to Mormonism, and Islam was really the correct path, I would be in serious trouble. Correct me if I am wrong here, although I am pretty sure I'm not, the purpose of Missionaries is to bring the "Good Word" to the whole entire world, and to convert them... Pretend for a second that the LDS faith is not the correct one. How do you think all this would go over in the afterlife?? I have a different kind of personality, so please don't take anything out of context. I am trying to have a mature debate so that I can understand why you say these things are true. Although to be honest with you I haven't gotten anything concrete, just examples. I do have some references I can put in later that I've had written down for weeks. . .

I don't see the point in trying to get answers because the only evidence is the Book of Mormon.... That's not evidence, it didn't even exist until the 1800s. =\ I keep getting left confused.

I love my sister, too. However, I don't believe there was ever a requirement for joining the LDS Church. I know the Bible fairly well - I grew up on Scripture. That doesn't change the fact that this faith is not exactly credible. It relies on faith only. I have done all the exploring I need, and have finally landed in a good spot. I just have a hard time understanding why the followers of the LDS faith believe things so steadfastly when next to your intuition and own personal FEELINGS there's nothing to stand on. It is very contradictory to the original Christian teachings which have not changed since the dawn of their time. I understand the Godhead, also, and it is not separate, it is all a part of the same. =\

Uh hi everybody. Here is why, sis.... Because regardless of other beliefs, one of my concerns is the Bible VS the LDS teachings. Show me where in the Bible it specifically says that we existed before coming to Earth. Show me where in the Bible it specifically says that God was once a man. Show me specifically, besides in your heart of hearts, the evidence [not proof - evidence] of cultures such as that of the Nephites of the Lamanites. And didn't part of Joseph Smith's divine translation really translate into part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead? I believe it did... I have very different religious views than that of my family and most of the modern Western world. I don't think there is one true church. There can't be. The Muslims believe they're right, and the believe it with all their heart, as do the "normal" Christians, and the Jews... People pick their beliefs based on what they feel in their heart, and what is right for them, and it is not always the same for everybody. There are so many things wrong historically and theologically [in regards to the Bible] with the LDS faith I have a considerably difficult time reconciling any of it. And by the way a "testimony" and a "witness" are not good enough... You've GOT to take in everyone else's beliefs, and put yourself in a position with those beliefs and as a potential convert. How would you feel, given what you always "knew" about your religion?? =\ And uh.. her sister is not going to get baptized.