volgadon
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Posts posted by volgadon
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Gramajane, the word trinity not being in the Bible is a weak argument. Also, Constantine wasn't baptised but he wasn't quite considered a pagan either.
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So now I am at the full circle in interest in your post and the contextual understanding and inspiration of loyal and obedient fathers and mothers - which is sometimes secondary for those serving in “high” positions.
The Traveler
Is there anything at all about my post that you would like to address? If there was, then I must have missed it.
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As this year is the New Testament in Gospel Doctrine class I thought I would share a recent blogpost of mine. Calba Savua's Orchard: Did Saadia Gaon & Maimonides Believe in Eternal Marriage?
I'm sure many are familiar with the following quote from Bruce R. McConkie's Doctrinal Commentary of the New Testmant.
There are some ancient Jewish sources indicating a belief in eternal marriage, unfortunately, they weren't used by Elder McConkie.Indeed, almost the whole Jewish nation believed that marriage was eternal, and that parents would beget children in the resurrection. Those few who did not believe that marriage continued after death and among such were the Sadducees, who could not so believe because they denied the resurrection itself—were nonetheless fully aware that such was the prevailing religious view of the people generally. Without doubt Jesus, the apostles, the seventies, and the disciples generally had discussed this doctrine.
The Sadducean effort here is based on the assumption that Jesus and the Jews generally believe in marriage in heaven. They are using this commonly accepted concept to ridicule and belittle the fact of the resurrection itself. They are saying: 'How absurd to believe in a resurrection (and therefore in the fact that there is marriage in heaven) when everybody knows that a woman who has had seven husbands could not have them all at once in the life to come.'
A most instructive passage showing that the Jews believed there should be marriage in heaven is found in Dummelow. "There was some division of opinion among the rabbis as to whether resurrection would be to a natural or to a supernatural (spiritual) life," he says. "A few took the spiritual view, e.g. Rabbi Raf is reported to have often said, 'In the world to come they shall neither eat, nor drink, nor beget children, nor trade. There is neither envy nor strife, but the just shall sit with crowns on their heads, and shall enjoy the splendor of the Divine Majesty.' But the majority inclined to a materialistic view of the resurrection. The pre-Christian book of Enoch says that the righteous after the resurrection shall live so long that they shall beget thousands. The received doctrine is laid down by Rabbi Saadia, who says, 'As the son of the widow of Sarepton, and the son of the Shunamite, ate and drank, and doubtless married wives, so shall it be in the resurrection'; and by Maimonides, who says, 'Men after the resurrection will use meat and drink, and will beget children, because since the Wise Architect makes nothing in vain, it follows of necessity that the members of the body are not useless, but fulfill their functions.' The point raised by the Sadducees was often debated by the Jewish doctors, who decided that 'a woman who married two husbands in this world is restored to the first in the next.'" (Dummelow, p. 698.)
All the sources in Dummelow are taken out of context and distorted.
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Monty Python already tackled this (forgive the pun).
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So you agree Dad's get second billing?
Should I and the rest of the missionary force from outside the USA start complaining because we only got to call home on American holidays and not on what for us are the big ones?
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Because my parents divorced when I was 2 years old. That's why it matters.
On my mission I had to live under the "2 calls a year" rule too, and I was very upset about it. Is my dad less important to me? No. Did I have the option of talking to him without breaking a rule? No.
I thought the rule was stupid then and I still think it's stupid. At least my companion was smart. He got a calling card and called home once, twice a week. Untraceable.
On my mission we had some elders whose parents were divorced, they were allowed to call both.
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Why does it matter? Missionaries are allowed to talk with their fathers too on that day.
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Ancient historians weren't particularly concerned with documentary history.
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So are you Sephardic?
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Polygamy has died out among the Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews. The last ones really were the Yemenites, and that more or less stopped when they immigrated to Israel.
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Volgadon
Surely and sadly, we are getting nowhere.
If you have a point please make it.
I take that as a no. Midrash is the ancient Jewish method of expounding the scriptures. The root of the word is to search. For an example of what it meant in practice, the ancient Jews sages took the song of the sea "And then Moses sang this song" and used it as a prooftext for the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead in the Pentateuch. Why? Taken literally, the grammatical construct of the Hebrew is actually "And then Moses will sing this song," IE the future tense. Why then is the future tense used? Obviously because Moses will be alive in the future, and this is a result of the resurrection. Similar principal to what Christ said about God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Nobody could take those verses at face value and go AHA! Resurrection of the dead!
A doctrine which people believed was taken and read into the scriptures! That is what the Thessalonicans were doing.
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Let me ask again, Soninme, do you know what midrash is.
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But guys, you haven't shown me where?
Why the question mark?
Anyway, don't take my word for it, here is an entire book with many essays relating to this subject. Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man ... - Google Books
If I could quote another Bible scholar Norman Geisler;
Bible scholar? Do you mean the apologist, theologian, and philosopher Norman Geisler?
The only place in the world you will find a record of Apostolic teaching is in the 27 books of the New Testament–no more, no less. There is no other book known to mankind that the Apostles wrote and every book that they wrote under the inspiration of God we have in the New Testament.
The only Bart Ehrman book I own is one called "Lost Scriptures." Check it out.
but indirectly to the whole Bible,
If you are going to make that argument then we can easily counter and say "indirectly to the entire canon accepted by LDS."
“Don’t add to it; don’t take away from it because the Bible is the complete Word of God.”
Chapter and verse, please. You have grossly distorted the warning in Revelation, indeed, one could say that you are adding to it.
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Most of the NT doesn't contain direct quotes from 1 Enoch. However, much of it is heavily influenced by Enoch, especially by the section known as the Parables of Enoch.
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And then there is so much generalizing. People LOVE to generalize. They assume one little thing is the rule for everyone.
This actually is pretty funny.
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I can respect that. A lot my Christian and Muslims friends are surprised and I and others Jews do not support Zionism. Many come to the conclusion that I'm antiwar or something of that nature. I was in the military and I can say many things are not poetic. But the wars are not the reason I do not support Zionism. It has to do with my faith and how I see the Messiah concept in Judaism. Here is a link with answers about Zionism and why Jews and others should not support Zionism. I believe we all should respect one another and what happens, happens.
I respect your position, but I'm a big fan of the Rav Kook, and of the Gra too. I've got some books to recommend which I think you'll find interesting.
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Thanks! Are you Jewish or Mormon?
Yes. =)
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I am a moderate Zionist from Israel, welcome.
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Well, one of the Kievan princes exhumed the corpses of two uncles and had them baptised, that is sprinkled.
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It is kind of like attempting to convince southern Baptists of reincarnation, citing as support the practices of some Tibetan Budhists. Was Paul really that inept?
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Well His word does say;
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Do you know what midrash means?
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BTW, Livingstone, what does the word "Bible" mean?
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Thats because you don't know how to understand the Bible, And a lot of people get it wrong because they don't know how to understand the Bible.
That ultimately is the problem with sola scriptura. It really isn't about letting the Bible speak for itself. sola scriptura requires that the Bible be read through the lens of protestant ideology. If you can show me sola scriptura in the Bible, then by all means do.
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If the subject is important to the university then I contend the number and type of titles in the bookstore will tell us their thinking and the importance they place on the subject.
In that case BYU is blindingly indifferent to any religion but LDS and is thoroughly self-absorbed. If you compare the number of titles dealing with LDS topics with those regarding other faiths (such as the Middle-Eastern texts project) then we are forced to reach that conclusion based on your reasoning.
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The library tells the history of the subject. The bookstore tells us what current thinking is.
Both library and bookstore carry recent titles by LDS authors supportive of LDS truth claims.
Doctrinal NT Commentary and Eternal Marriage
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Whatever. I'm not going to derail my own thread by responding any further to your usual anti-scholarship rants.