[Evidence of Christ in America]

WHAT? There is no Santa Claus?! (I know, old joke reaction). But actually, on that point and very OT, Coca Cola's red Santa was an advertising change from the old guy being dressed in green. He was in green because he was Hearn, or Cerrunos, the Green Man; the old 'pagan' god. He has twigs in his hair and beard, and ruled creation quietly from behind the scenes with his goddess. This was central to shamanistic practises. Him coming 'down the chimney', or more accurately, down through the Yurt opening, and returning again, was symbolic of him appearing to the shaman. Reindeer or horses took him back to the heavens, depending upon the times and where tribes lived.

Umm, no. Santa Claus : Postcard Images, Antique Postcards on Magnets

Also, the reindeer bit was invented by Clement C. Moore.

[any question can be answered in the scriptures right?]

The scriptures point to Christ. That is where to go for the peace you need.

[The Thread In Which We All Talk Like Gentlemen!]

Nobody appears to have read Sir Arthur Bryant's "The Age of Elegance." Gentlemen took great pride in walking up to women and swearing as much as possible.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

See post 71

I referred to that as well.

And this success had nothing to do with climate change.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

Just that easy?

You are saying that it cannot go from a land of milk and honey

to desert by the weather going hotter, cooler, dryer, wetter, etc,?

I am saying that a land of milk and honey has utterly nothing to do with a northern European or north American climate that Bert seems to be envisioning. Israel is not mainly a desert, though the climate is rough. Compared to the Sinai, which indeed is a desert, Israel (and parts of Transjordan) is a land flowing in milk and honey. Dairy products formed a vital part of Palestinian diet even in times when the country was extremely impovrished and underdeveloped. The honey the Bible refers to is almost never bee honey, but mainly date honey.

The flowering of Israel that you refered to again has nothing to do with climate changes, but with hard work and agricultural and medical developements. I remember a conversation on a train in soiuthern Russia. I asked the woman sitting in front of me if it was true that the black earth of her village there was very good for farming. She replied that it was a very blessed land, very fruitful, but that they have to put massive and constant effort into it.

If you or Bert can point to anything showing that the climate changed so utterly and drastically sometime within the last 2000 years, please do so.

Climate changes are usually subtler. What you are proposing would have completely altered ALL aspects of life in Israel and the Middle-East, yet no record of that exists.

This making it today more forage available then there was in the

meridian of time or even a thousand years before then?

Just wondering:cool:

Yet even in the summer, when forage is scarce, shepherds are out with their flocks, let alone winter, WHEN THE MAJORITY OF THE RAINFALL TAKES PLACE, be it ever so much or so little. Our winter is really what you would consider autumn. Some years are better (such as 1968), others (like the past 10 or so) are worse, but the basic features remain the same.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

I believe we have had climate change all over the world from

time to time back and forth over the years.

Right, but nothing as drastic as what Bert is proposing, without their being some record or indication of such. The climate changing from a northern-European or north-American one would have had far-reaching consequences

The Old Test tells us during the time it (the discription of the land)

was written that it was a "land of milk and honey".

It is so again in places after much work.

This has nothing to do with climate changes.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

Weather is not the same from year to year. Each Century has it own problems. Anyway...every one is free to believe what they will.

bert10

So you are claiming that the climate of Israel changed extremely and drastically sometime during the past 2000 years and we have utterly no record of such?

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

Why the question marks? Don't you think angels have friends? Sheesh! :)

You make it sound like you are personally acquainted with the angel in question.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

In December/January...the Sheep are still in the pen...not in the hills foraging for food which has already been eaten up in the fall. The Shepherds were in the hills in the Spring when they heard the Angels.

bert10

Nonsense, Bert. From personal experience growing up in Israel, as well as researching into the topic, I can state with absolute confidence that sheep are out almost year round in Israel. December is actually a very verdant month, important forage-wise.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

I'm a friend of the angel.

???

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

I suggest you read the article again. It states in it that Gabriel came to her in the springtime (according to the Jewish calendar). The only question would be, was she pregnant then, or did some time pass before she became pregnant.

Actually, it would probably have been September or so. The first month (Nissan) corresponded roughly to our April.

[Gospel Doctrine New Testament Lesson 1 - “That Ye Might Believe That Jesus Is the Christ” Isaiah 61:]

I hope you don't mind my posting this lengthy excerpt from pages 104-107 of Sigmund Mowinckel's "He That Cometh." I feel it helps make sense of the names in Isaiah 9, and how they apply to a messiah.

But what is the reason for this sudden change of fortune?

What is the light which has dawned on the oppressed people?

We are now told:

For a child has been born to us,

a son has been given to us;

the token of royalty shall be on his shoulder,

and his name shall be called 'Wonderful Ruler',

‘Divine Hero’, 'Father for ever’,

and ‘Prince of peace and well-being’.

A son is born! By the birth of the child, light has dawned upon them in the darkness. The certainty of deliverance and salvation has been created within them, so that they already rejoice in anticipation of the coming victory and prosperity…

To this fact direct expression is given by the names which the prophet already gives to the child, names which he will assuredly win for himself when he sits on the throne of his fathers. In the east, as is clear particularly from Egyptian sources, the ceremony of enthronement included the bestowal by the deity of names which expressed the king's nature, his relationship to the deity, and his destiny; and clearly this custom also formed part of the coronation ritual in Judah. That is what the prophet is referring to here.

Even now, by anticipation, he bestows upon the newborn prince the royal names which Yahweh has destined for him and which he will one day bear. They are 'Wonderful Ruler' (literally, 'Counsellor'), 'Divine Hero', 'Father for ever', 'Prince of Peace and Good Fortune' (both ideas are included in the Hebrew salom, 'peace', which really means, wholeness, fullness, perfect conditions). The first and last of these names are immediately intelligible to us: to rule over the land and the nation in war and peace, to have the right counsel in every situation, and to carry it into effect, to secure 'peace' and 'happiness' by victory in war and by prudent and just government were always the tasks of kings in ancient Israel.

But even the first name, 'Wonderful Ruler', seems to hint that here these qualities are present in a wonderful, superhuman degree. The other two names show quite plainly that divine equipment is meant. The second name,

el gibor, may be translated as 'Heroic God' or as 'a God of a Hero', i.e., 'Divine Hero'; by analogy with 'Wonderful Ruler', the latter interpretation is the more likely. But in either event, the heroic power which the child will possess is characterized as divine.

In form the name offers a precise parallel to the epithet applied to Aleyan-Baal in the Ugaritic texts: 'tiu gaziru, 'the victorious or heroic god', the god who is victorious over his enemies and raises life out of death again.

The third name, 'Father of Eternity',may according to normal Hebrew usage be interpreted 'Father for ever', i.e., one who for all time acts as the father of his people or his worshippers. But here, too, we have analogies which point in a somewhat different direction. The Egyptian king-god also bears the title 'Prince of Eternity' and 'lord of infinity' and in the Ugaritic texts the supreme god, El, is also called 'Father ofYears' (abu sanimi}. 'Eternity' in Hebrew does not denote the infinite, empty, abstract, linear prolongation of time which we associate with the word, but is equated with ' time ' in all its infinite comprehensiveness. The word can therefore also mean 'the course of the world’ (aeon) or simply ‘the world’ itself as a totality of time and space. To the Hebrew, 'time' is not an empty formal notion, a concept or category in the Kantian sense, but is inseparable from its entire content. 'Time' is all that exists and happens in time. It is the sum of the content of the years. ‘Father of Eternity’ and

'Father of Years' are therefore identical conceptions. They indicate the one who produces, directs, and is lord of the everchanging years, who lets the years with all their content of events follow each other in constant succession, who thus produces and directs 'eternity', the entire fullness of events and reality.

It is evident that such a name really belongs to a god, and not just any god, but the god, 'the high god', ‘the supreme god', 'the father of the gods’ (see below, pp. i8sf). That the Jews, too, knew and used this title is apparent from a number of passages.

Thus the newborn child is a ruler, a king, with divine attributes and divine equipment.

What kind of child is this, then; and what are his task and his vocation?

To increase the dominion,

and <make> good fortune endless,

upon the throne of David,

and in his kingdom,

to establish it with justice and righteousness

from henceforth and for ever

the zeal of Yahweh of Hosts

will perform this.

The child will sit on the lofty throne of David's kingdom as a scion of David. He is called to extend his dominion and to create endless 'peace’ (well-being) for his dynasty, and for its realm and empire, and thereby also for the people over whom the dynasty rules, and to restore the kingdom of David, which for the present, at least, is abased and subdued, to its ancient splendour. He will perform this as ruler of the kingdom, by displaying precisely those virtues which are required in a ruler: to execute ‘justice ', ‘righteousness', and 'judgement', to provide 'justice' for his people, and by 'judging’ them to deliver them from their adversaries, so to rule that well-being ('ideal conditions') is restored and maintained. He will also, if need be, 'give judgement against', and so destroy, not only foreign enemies, but any malefactors who exist within the nation, and protect all his subjects against the violation of their rights as members of the covenant people. The ideal which is now to be realized through this child is the old ethical ideal of a king or ruler in Israel: to establish and maintain conditions of righteousness and bliss at home and abroad.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

I always thought that the Lord was born in the spring due to the fact that the "shepards were tending their flocks", normally associated with a spring activity, at least here in the northern hemisphere. Assuming that to be true, then the Lord could have been born in the spring.

In ancient Israel down to today tending sheep was a year-round activity. For us, winter is really more akin to autumn in Europe and North America. Rain falls and grass grows. Good for the sheep, miserable for the shepherds. They have to be out during all weather, from shivering wet and cold to blistering heat. By may the sun scorches and shrivels the vegetation. As the young Jewish idealists at the turn of the century found, tending sheep is a great way to break your health. Practically the only time shepherds could relax is right after the shearing season.

My brother, BTW, was a shepherd for a time. Conditions are a lot better than they were in Christ's time, but shepherds still tend sheep year round. I personally think the Saviour was born some time in April, because of the salvation motive inherent in Passover, but shepherds tending flocks makes for a lousy indicator.

[What was the real date of Jesus' birth?]

Ex. Juno (June), Mars (March) Thor (Thursday) are names of false gods.

Not only are we walking by a lower light, We are using the names of demons to mark the days and month of the Calender we use and some do pronounce their names more often then that of our own GOD.

Speak for yourself. I also use yom rishon (day first), yom sheni (day second), yom shlishi (day third), yom revii (day fourth), yom hamishi (day fifth), yom shishi (day sixth), and shabbat, as well as voskresenye (resurrection), ponedelnik (according to the week), vtornik (recurring), sreda (middle), chetverg (quarter), pyatnitsa (five), subbota (sabbath).

[Introducing myself]

I have CHANGED completely from being very frustrated in life to a calm and peaceful feeling continually each day of my life.

Good for you!

[Enoch/Elijah/Moses]

They hadn't died before Christ was risen.

[Hi all - Documentary on Leeds missionaries]

Actually, what you want to do is contact the mission president.

[The Book of Mormon Fiction?]

Considered by some, like Fawn Brodie. That position has been refuted. Besides, Ethan Smith's book wasn't a work of fiction, merely poor scholarship.

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

Respectfully, Volgadon, I agree with pretty much everything you have said, and I would also suggest that BenSalem is at very least walking the thin line of anti-semitism.

That said, while I do understand the modern political state of Israel to be a 'Jewish state', is it your position that we are to consider the modern political entity that is Israel to be the same, and coextensive with, the gathering of Israel mentioned in Judeo-Christian eschatology? I ask this in part because, as I am sure you know, there is serious disagreement even among modern Jews as to whether this is the case. Conservative and modern-Orthodox Jews generally see the modern political entity of Israel as having religious-escatological significance, while the Hasidim and Haredim generally want nothing at all to do with it precisely because it has no religious-eschatological significance.

Just wondering what your position is on that.

My position is that the formation of the state of Israel is not THE gathering but rather part of it.

I will respond later at greater length to the excellent points you bring up.

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

Another poster made it clear that the UN declaration established a Jewish state, they did not establish Israel. So I too will call it a Jewish state, not Israel...since I recognize only the LDS church as being the threshold of Israel.

Declaration of Israeli Independence

Issued at Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948 (5th of lyar, 5708)

(1) The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world.

(2) Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained faithful to it in all the countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and the restoration of their national freedom.

(3) Impelled by this historic association, Jews strove throughout the centuries to go back to the land of their fathers and regain their statehood. In recent decades they returned in masses. They reclaimed the wilderness, revived their language, built cities and villages and established a vigorous and ever-growing community, with its own economic and cultural life. They sought peace yet were ever prepared to defend themselves. They brought the blessing of progress to all inhabitants of the country.

(4) In the year 1897 the First Zionist Congress, inspired by Theodor Herzl’s vision of the Jewish State, proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national revival in their own country.

(5) This right was acknowledged by the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, and re-affirmed by the Mandate of the League of Nations, which gave explicit international recognition to the historic connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and their right to reconstitute their National Home.

(6) The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the reestablishment of the Jewish State, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.

(7) The survivors of the European catastrophe, as well as Jews from other lands, proclaiming their right to a life of dignity, freedom and labor, and undeterred by hazards, hardships and obstacles, have tried unceasingly to enter Palestine.

(8) In the Second World War the Jewish people in Palestine made a full contribution in the struggle of the freedom-loving nations against the Nazi evil. The sacrifices of their soldiers and the efforts of their workers gained them title to rank with the peoples who founded the United Nations.

(9) On November 29,1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

(10) This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own sovereign State.

(11) ACCORDINGLY, WE the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assembly today, the day of termination of the British mandate for Palestine, by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish people and of the Resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations,

(12) HEREBY PROCLAIM the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL.

(13) WE HEREBY DECLARE that as from the termination of the Mandate at midnight, this night of the 14th to 15th May, 1948, and until the setting up of the duly elected bodies of a Constituent Assembly not later than the first day of October, 1948, the present National Council shall act as the provisional administration, shall constitute the Provisional Government of the State of Israel.

(14) THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines andHoly Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

(15) THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be ready to cooperate with the organs and representatives of the United Nations in the implementation of the Resolution of the Assembly of November 29, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the Economic Union over the whole of Palestine.

(16) We appeal to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building of its State and to admit Israel into the family of nations.

(17) In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions provisional or permanent.

(18) We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

(19) Our call goes out to the Jewish people all over theworld to rally to our side in the task of immigration and development and to stand by us in the great struggle for the fulfillment of the dream of generations the redemption of Israel.

(20) With trust in Almighty G-d we set our hand to this Declaration, at this Session of the Provisional State Council, in the city of Tel Aviv, on this Sabbath eve, the fifth of Iyar, 5708, the fourteenth day of May, 1948.

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

Then why would you accuse me of such a thing when I have shown no hatred or prejudice?

I wouldn't, were that the case. It isn't.

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

"O Thou! who art from everlasting to everlasting, eternally and unchangeably the same, even the God who rules in the heavens above, and controls the destinies of men on the earth, wilt Thou not condescend, through thine infinite goodness and royal favor, to listen to the prayer of Thy servant which he this day offers up unto Thee in the name of Thy holy child Jesus, upon this land, where the Son of Righteousness set in blood, and thine Anointed One expired.

"Be pleased, O Lord, to forgive all the follies, weaknesses, vanities, and sins of Thy servant, and strengthen him to resist all future temptations. Give him prudence and discernment that he may avoid the evil, and a heart to choose the good; give him fortitude to bear up under trying and adverse circumstances, and grace to endure all things for Thy name's sake, until the end shall come, when all the Saints shall rest in peace.

"Now, O Lord! Thy servant has been obedient to the heavenly vision which Thou gavest him in his native land; and under the shadow of Thine outstretched arm, he has safely arrived in this place to dedicate and consecrate this land unto Thee, for the gathering together of Judah's scattered remnants, according to the predictions of the holy Prophets -- for the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the Gentiles so long, and for rearing a Temple in honor of Thy name. Everlasting thanks be ascribed unto Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast preserved Thy servant from the dangers of the seas, and from the plague and pestilence which have caused the land to mourn. The violence of man has also been restrained, and Thy providential care by night and by day has been exercised over Thine unworthy servant. Accept, therefore, O Lord, the tribute of a grateful heart for all past favors, and be pleased to continue Thy kindness and mercy towards a needy worm of the dust.

"O Thou, Who didst covenant with Abraham, Thy friend, and who didst renew that covenant with Isaac, and confirm the same with Jacob with an oath, that Thou wouldst not only give them this land for an everlasting inheritance, but that Thou wouldst also remember their seed forever. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have long since closed their eyes in death, and made the grave their mansion. Their children are scattered and dispersed abroad among the nations of the Gentiles like sheep that have no shepherd, and are still looking forward for the fulfillment of those promises which Thou didst make concerning them; and even this land, which once poured forth nature's richest bounty, and flowed, as it were, with milk and honey, has, to a certain extent, been smitten with barrenness and sterility since it drank from murderous hands the blood of Him who never sinned.

"Grant, therefore, O Lord, in the name of Thy well-beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to remove the barrenness and sterility of this land, and let springs of living water break forth to water its thirsty soil. Let the vine and olive produce in their strength, and the fig-tree bloom and flourish. Let the land become abundantly fruitful when possessed by its rightful heirs; let it again flow with plenty to feed the returning prodigals who come home with a spirit of grace and supplication; upon it let the clouds distil virtue and richness, and let the fields smile with plenty. Let the flocks and the herds greatly increase and multiply upon the mountains and the hills; and let Thy great kindness conquer and subdue the unbelief of Thy people. Do Thou take from them their stony heart, and give them a heart of flesh; and may the Sun of Thy favor dispel the cold mists of darkness which have beclouded their atmosphere. Incline them to gather in upon this land according to Thy word. Let them come like clouds and like doves to their windows. Let the large ships of the nations bring them from the distant isles; and let kings become their nursing fathers, and queens with motherly fondness wipe the tear of sorrow from their eye.

"Thou, O Lord, did once move upon the heart of Cyrus to show favor unto Jerusalem and her children. Do Thou now also be pleased to inspire the hearts of kings and the powers of the earth to look with a friendly eye towards this place, and with a desire to see Thy righteous purposes executed in relation thereto. Let them know that it is Thy good pleasure to restore the kingdom unto Israel -- raise up Jerusalem as its capital, and constitute her people a distinct nation and government, with David Thy servant, even a descendant from the loins of ancient David to be their king.

"Let that nation or that people who shall take an active part in behalf of Abraham's children, and in the raising up of Jerusalem, find favor in Thy sight. Let not their enemies prevail against them, neither let pestilence or famine overcome them, but let the glory of Israel overshadow them, and the power of the Highest protect them; while that nation or kingdom that will not serve Thee in this glorious work must perish, according to Thy word --- Yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

"Though Thy servant is now far from his home, and from the land bedewed with his earliest tear, yet he remembers, O Lord, his friend: who are there, and family, whom for Thy sake he has left. Though poverty and privation be our earthly lot, yet ah! do Thou richly endow us with an inheritance where moth and rust do not corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal.

"The hands that have fed, clothed, or shown favor unto the family of Thy servant in his absence, or that shall hereafter do so, let them not lose their reward, but let a special blessing rest upon them, and in Thy kingdom let them have an inheritance when Thou shalt come to be glorified in this society.

"Do Thou also look with favor upon all those through whose liberality I have been enabled to come to this land; and in the day when Thou shalt reward all people according to their works, let these also not be passed by or forgotten, but in time let them be in readiness to enjoy the glory of those mansions which Jesus has gone to prepare. Particularly do Thou bless the stranger in Philadelphia, whom I never saw, but who sent me gold, with a request that I should pray for him in Jerusalem. Now, O Lord, let blessings come upon him from an unexpected quarter, and let his basket be filled, and his storehouse abound with plenty, and let not the good things of the earth be his only portion, but let him be found among those to whom it shall be said, `Thou hast been faithful over a few things, and I will make thee ruler over many.'

"O my Father in heaven! I now ask Thee in the name of Jesus to remember Zion, with all her Stakes, and with all her assemblies. She has been grievously afflicted and smitten; she has mourned; she has wept; her enemies have triumphed, and have said, `Ah, where is thy God?' Her Priests and Prophets have groaned in chains and fetters within the gloomy walls of prisons, while many were slain, and now sleep in the arms of death. How long, O Lord, shall iniquity triumph, and sin go unpunished?

"Do Thou arise in the majesty of Thy strength, and make bare Thine arm in behalf of Thy people. Redress their wrongs, and turn their sorrow into joy. Pour the spirit of light and knowledge, grace and wisdom, into the hearts of her Prophets, and clothe her Priests with salvation. Let light and knowledge march forth through the empire of darkness, and may the honest in heart flow to their standard, and join in the march to go forth to meet the Bridegroom.

"Let a peculiar blessing rest upon the Presidency of Thy Church, for at them are the arrows of the enemy directed. Be Thou to them a sun and a shield, their strong tower and hiding place; and in the time of distress or danger be Thou near to deliver. Also the quorum of the Twelve, do Thou be pleased to stand by them for Thou knowest the obstacles which they have to encounter, the temptations to which they are exposed, and the privations which they must suffer. Give us, [the Twelve] therefore, strength according to our day, and help us to bear a faithful testimony of Jesus and His Gospel, to finish with fidelity and honor the work which Thou hast given us to do, and then give us a place in Thy glorious kingdom. And let this blessing rest upon every faithful officer and member in Thy Church. And all the glory and honor will we ascribe unto God and the Lamb forever and ever. Amen."

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

Just to get things straight... I'm not one of the people calling your posts anti-semitic.

I was.

I might have used the wrong wording in saying your posts got you in "trouble". I was referring to some people mis-interpreting your posts as anti-semitic due to the sweeping generalizations you make. So, what I meant to say was - your posts got easily mis-interpreted.

I can pull a pretty good number of my Christian friends calling Mormons non-Christian too. Doesn't make it true. And being born and raised a devout Catholic and now a Mormon, I can pretty much claim that I know what I'm talking about.

Bensalem's posts are anti-Semitic. Indeed, his OP shows that he sees the Jews as collectively responsible for the death of Christ, although they are to be held "blameless". In other words, God made them do it. He then proceeds along the "true Israel" line of argumentation to deny modern jews any legitimacy, another classic feature of old anti-Semitism.

I'm from israel, I've done quite a bit of work on various forms of anti-Semitism throughought my highschool years, so I can pretty much claim that I know what I'm talking about as well.

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

I don't understand your comment or recognize the source; perhaps you could educate me with an explanation.

My comment was a bit from a primary source countering your statement that Israel is not a Jewish state. The quote is fairly famous, it is by Theodore Herzl.

[Should the Jews be Held Blameless]

That is exactly what I am saying. Israel is where the LDS church is, not where people claim it is in the Middle East country by the same name.

There is a spiritual Israel, that is, the church, but there is also a physical Israel, whose home is in the Middle East country which you speak of so disparigingly.

The scriptures are pretty clear on this.