antoine1830

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  1. I think that in a way, the skeptic was wishing the lds kids well on their "math test" possibly a metaphor for the judgement of God, that the lds kids beliefs will not allow them to do well on the "math test" with God, as shown by his rant on the completion grade on the test and stuff. That was a tough part to listen to
  2. I recently watched this scene take place, and I put this thread in Youth & Seminary because the context of this event is very important to understanding the situation the lds kids were in. Keep in mind that as high schoolers, these Mormons are developing in their knowledge of not only their faith but also their general knowledge of our world, and so many of their responses to the skeptic would have been different if the same scene were to have occurred between, perhaps, a theologian and a skeptic. This skeptic had apparently been researching lds for some time, and had a knowledge of doctrine, core beliefs, and many other aspects of lds that the missionaries he regularly met with described as "impressive". I know this skeptic personally and he is very studious, and could be considered among the smartest of his peers. His exploration of lds from what everyone could see is whole-hearted and honest, as he seemed very determined to know of the truth. One of the skeptic's friends was an lds convert of 16 years of age, just like him, and they had known each other for several years through school and the many classes they shared. Many lds kids speculate that he once had a crush on her and this led him to begin exploring lds. Like the skeptic, she is very smart and had a natural gift of learning. The skeptic talked with this lds convert girl, who many both at school and in her ward saw as an even better mormon than many who had been raised lds, and apparently she described the validity of the Book of Mormon as being "even more true than a math book with the answers in it". This painted a picture with the skeptic of the truth and power of the Book of Mormon that he apparently found rather interesting. For several months, the skeptic continued to research lds and developed deep questions that often when asked to his peers went unanswered, and this was frustrating to him. He tried asking the missionaries, but as school got harder, he lost time to meet with the missionaries. This is where the intense scene took place. I will try to recreate his words as best as I can. The skeptic had not talked to very many of the lds kids at school for a while about lds. He had been reading, however, the Book of Mormon and had been praying, which he continually told his Mormon friends about very happily. One day, he walked up to the table of Mormons in the cafeteria and pulled out a math book. He opened up to an easy algebraic problem in the book whose answer was obvious and could be solved mentally. I don't remember which problem it was, but it was very easy like x - 9= 0. He pulled out a lid of some sort he had poked a hole through and said "I am going to find out the answer to this problem. I whole-heartedly wish to find the answer to this problem, because my grade depends on it!" He then stared at the problem through the lid which was obviously a mockery of a seer stone, and then announced "It has been personally revealed to me that the answer is 26!". This was not the right answer to the problem, and many Mormons corrected him. He responded by saying "The gods of Arabian algebra have personally told me this! I have faith that this is the answer! You can't tell me what's right and wrong! Why should I have knowledge of the 'right answer'? That would destroy my faith! Not only do I have faith that this is the right answer, but I also know it's the right answer" At this point, you can imagine that many of the Mormons had caught onto this and were fairly shocked. Yet, the skeptic continued. "You see, the gods of Arabian algebra have personally revealed these answers to me. It may go against the normal rules of math you guys think is right, but look at it this way: The arabians invented algebra, but they got conquered and many died off! Man then corrupted math, and the arabians could not be on earth to pass on this math power! Why do you think there are so many versions of math books? The gods of algebra have told me that I can restore the true math to the world!" This further upset the Mormon kids, but many did not know how to respond to this other than saying "Stop making fun of us!" or "Stop persecuting us!". The latter of the two caused the skeptic to laugh and he then said "Persecuting? Because sooooo many Mormons have been persecuted, kinda like how the jews were in the holocaust, or muslims during the inquisition? My bad!". The lds convert girl then chimed in and said "Many mormons died on the way to Utah! That counts!" and the skeptic then replied with "But does that make them martyrs? Did they die for their faith, with the mentality that they are giving up their lives for the defense of their religion like suicide bombers do every day? Didn't think so!" The convert girl was then flustered, and could not defend her stance. The skeptic went even further and said "Look, you guys can think I'm wrong about this answer to the math problem, but I have faith that I'm right, and you don't even know how happy this has made me. I am confident that I'll get a good grade on the test using this new algebra. The teacher just grades for completion anyways, I mean, I participate, and I do all my homework, so no matter how wrong it is, I'll still get a good grade. I humbly bear this testimony unto you" ending with a very mockingly ignorant smile. Most mormons laughed back at him and said "Yeah go try that, you're going to fail the test!" and he then said back "Stop persecuting me! 2+2=5 and that comforts me! The gods of algebra told me to look into my heart for the answers, and not to use reason and science. Who cares about all of the evidence against my math that you think you have! Whenever something bad in math comes up, I have a stupor of thought and I use doublethink, and it just leaves my mind" all said with the same cocky mocking grin. I found it particularly offensive how he used Orwellian references against lds. He walked away, and many lds kids just sat back in shock, not knowing how to respond to such defying arrogance. What should the lds kids do to help the skeptic, the low hanging fruit. It is obvious that he is definitely in a struggle and needs guidance. How should the lds kids respond to this? What should they do about the skeptic?
  3. I don't care whether it's true or not, but many lds people I know do, so I'm just arguing with them on the assumption that the Holy Ghost and the Devil can. So you're not helping at all, and I don't care. Go troll somewhere else, because you're wasting space in here by not staying on the original question I posed. I don't care if it's not valid to argue it in your opinion because you personally believe the Devil and Holy Ghost can't give people feelings. I DONT CARE. YOU ARE NOT HELPING.
  4. What if someone had never felt anything to qualify these feelings relative to? Suppose that someone had never felt the Devil persuading them strongly, as he might when one might join religion x or religion y, and had not felt the Holy Ghost either, and so that person just assumed because it was the most convincing feeling and the most happy or light feeling they've ever had that it was the Holy Ghost. What of a scenario like that? (I am more of addressing the first segment of what I quoted here, the second part was just something I strongly agree with :) ) I'm curious, why were you told to pray in silence? I'm just curious is all because I've never heard that before.
  5. Thank you! This makes sense. Could this then make sense of saying that someone joining LDS because of the socio-religious structure and not to find a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is being led by the Devil? I don't care whether invisible demons exist or not. The point is that many LDS I've confronted have argued that the Holy Ghost and the Devil can both give people justification for any belief, and I'm just trying to logically determine according to their standards, not just mine, whether LDS has been justified by the Devil's workings as they define it. In all of your posts, you have not really addressed my main problem and have been rather condescending with arguments that don't belong here. I don't care whether you think demons or the devil exist or not. It's not helping me.
  6. So it seems like MCHants, an lds member (?) says that the Devil can give someone good feelings while Johnny says that the Devil can't...? I like the references from the Book of Mormon that you gave, Johnny, thank you very much. Snow: It's not a matter of allowing my life to be ruled by invisible demons, I'm just exploring the many aspects of a deep logical argument of Feelings and the Holy Ghost validating for people that religion x is the truth, not just mormonism, but many religions even outside Christianity assert this, and the LDS defense that I've heard the most is that the Devil cannot give someone good feelings as the Holy Ghost does, and that therefore the lds church is not built on personal revelations and callings which originate from the Devil. All I'm searching for are doctrinal and scriptural references to ground this argument.
  7. Hi, so I have a quick question about an origin of an lds belief that seems very popular but no one can truly give me a good scriptural origin, ideally from both the Bible and the works of the triple combination which display a congruency of ideology. My question is: Can satan give people good feelings through his deceitful ways to coax someone to do what he wants? I apologize if a thread addressing this already exists, I'm new here obviously and so I have not thoroughly explored the site yet. Thank you, and I once again am sorry for my stupidity in this post.