catalyst
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Posts posted by catalyst
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I've had two separate incidences where I've been emailed by someone saying they read my profile and want to get to know me better-as in possible relationship. What is this all about?
First one was fati4u and the other I erased a while back
Have Nigerian scammers infiltrated this forum?
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Maybe it will be better than the Book of Mormon movies the church puts out. Worst...Acting... Ever.
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There is a great quote from I believe John Taylor which basically says that as members we should always be questioning our thoughts and beliefs. I was digging through my stuff trying to find it but to no avail. I always found it interesting as it seems contrary to the more modern approach which is expressed in the quote being discussed in this thread or that one would hear in a typical service. I'll see if I can hunt it down.
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Polygamy, being an accepted practice at that time, was instituted under the leadership of Joseph Smith as a way to deal with the numerous single mothers whom had a need of a male head of the household (because of the culture of the times).
Actually the common explanation that polygamy was practiced in order to provide homes to a surplus of women in the church is a myth. LDS apostle John Widtsoe discussed this:
“Plural marriage has been a subject of wide and frequent comment. Members of the Church unfamiliar with its history, and many nonmembers, have set up fallacious reasons for the origin of this system of marriage among the Latter-day Saints. “The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is NOT supported by existing evidence. On the contrary, there seems always to have been MORE MALES than females in the Church...
“Another conjecture is that the people were few in numbers and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there WAS NO SURPLUS OF WOMEN.”
(Evidences and Reconciliations, 1960, pages 390-392)
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Apparently he's not truly forgiven unless he confesses it to his bishop as well
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In fact, I would venture to say that he is probably a less sinful man than the majority of people writing on this forum.
Why would you assume this?
On another note I understand what you are trying to lead to but please remember you are comparing an action which has been left to your interpretation (drinking caffeinated beverages) to another that is indeed viewed as a transgression. There is a world of difference.
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In the whole scheme of things, masturbation is relatively minor. We Mormons get too hung up on the little things. Like Coke-a-Cola, for example. We also tend to go WAY too hard on ourselves.
There are more important things to be worried about in this world, and the poor OP is worrying himself sick over masturbating. This should not be. He should be worrying about other more pressing matters instead.
That is my two cents, anyways.
Did you really compare drinking caffeinated soda and masturbation as being similar "little things" in the eyes of the LDS leadership? Awesome...
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I read on MSN.com today that the birth rate for young teenagers was lower than any time in history in 2009. It made me question if that was true because of abortion rates? I didn't know I just wondered.
Why would you think abortion over general access to easier forms of contraception?
I read an article recently about a possible link between kids being heavier now, therefore generating more hormones=earlier menstruation.
Thought that was an interesting perspective.
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There are newer scholarly books that give us a good deal of additional information about Joseph's polygamy. It really was very complex, in both practice and belief.
I have never said that I don't think sex was a motivation for Joseph, as I think it was. I just think there is ample evidence to indicate it was about many other things as well, to a much greater degree, especially the dynastic and familial motivations.
Obviously, I don't believe he really had a revelation to practice polygamy, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he thought he had. The reasons for that can't be explained by he simply wanted to have sex. Frankly, that's absurd.
Elphaba
Then again guys do a lot of crazy things simply for sex
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Masturbation IS a violation of the law of chastity. You are concerned about it because.....inside you know it is wrong. Go and confess and forsake.
Carl...it isn't a double standard. Jesus Christ CAN forgive sin.....the Church nor your eclesiastical leaders can not forgive sin. The Lord has established that for some sins....like LOC issues....confession is required. Often confession for a single instance of a sin like this CONCLUDES the repentance process if it has been forsaken.
Normal by medical standards? So is sexual intercourse whether you are married or not. Masturbation involves control over the physical and most often is accompanied by sexual fantasy and even pornography. The next step is.....actual sex. So it is serious and that is why confession is necessary.
"Inside you know it's wrong" or because you've been conditioned that it's wrong???
There are probably bigger fish to fry but I must say I believe "self mastery" of all things is probably a very positive thing in the eye's of the supreme being. The bigger question here is how come all the "angels" on the LDS.NET header appear to be caucasian? Is that a sample representation of the church or just a statement that you can only go to heaven if you are caucasian?
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Not to downplay your own experiences and those of others, the episode did say what the missionary was doing alone. He was hanging around with other religious leaders explaining gospel and moral principals to a girl.
The real questions is...did a Gilmore Girl hit on him?
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I just find it very odd that a practice designed to "raise a righteous seed" didn't produce any children until Brigham Young. Smith was an anomaly in the world of plural marriage in that he so far has no verifiable offspring from these 33 women.
Now compare that to one woman, Emma whom he had 11 children with. Something is definitely fishy.
So there are three possibilities:
1) Smith was a fraud and was using polygamy as an excuse to satisfy his carnal urges and he got really really lucky not to get any of these women pregnant.
Are you referring to the pull-out method?
2) Smith was a prophet of God and he was commanded to raise a righteous seed and he failed miserably at it.
Could be-he failed miserably at a lot of things:eek:
3) Smith was a prophet of God and he introduced a spiritual law as a preparation for the fullness of the law (a common practice in Biblical and LDS history) which was to come later.
Do you mean the push back from the Utah territory or are you referring to the next life?
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I'll take your word for it on the numbers. Again I haven't read into it recently. However, again I don' t think Emma's fertility or the fact that there aren't any children that we are currently aware of verifies that there weren't intimate relationships with Joseph and his plural wives. However, maybe he was the anomaly compared to his brethren.
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Well, my personal opinion was that plural marriage was given as a spiritual law before it became a temporal law. What that means is that Joseph Smith was sealed to multiple wives but only spiritually and ha no sex with them. I know there are accounts out there, but I think the evidence that no children were produced by 33 women is quite telling, particularly when he was so fertile with Emma.
Now with Brigham Young, I think the law went to a temporal and spiritual law and clearly Young did have children with multiple wives.
As to the purpose, it was to "raise up a righteous seed" so I don't think it was just to have a bunch of children, but rather, to have a larger percentage of children raised by righteous priesthood holders as well as the most dedicated women (willing to sacrifice) for the gospel. I think it's pretty clear the advantage children born into a plural family who was faithful to the gospel had over those not chosen or worthy to be in such a relationship.
Another aspect I think people forget is that just like anyone who has left the church disillusioned, they tend to overstate their abuse. I can certainly imagine a woman thinking being the wife of Brigham Young would be a picnic, and then the cold hard state of things hits her. Perhaps it was the harsh living conditions of Utah compared to what she was used to living back East. Or maybe she couldn't get along with the other wives, or maybe she wanted more attention. Who knows. But I doubt that Young abused these women. His statements to them are basically if you can't lump it then leave it. He had no problem letting women go when they wanted out.
I don't see Emma being fertile as a factor in Joseph not being intimate with his other wives. However, I think last time I was reading about this historians were aware of between 5-7 children from plural wives and were putting in the due diligence to confirm them via DNA testing. There have also been other questionable children from these women which unfortunately died at extremely young ages so testing isn't possible.
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In the early years of the church it was a great honor to be sealed to the prophet, and even men were sealed to him as brothers and sons (the rules of who could be sealed to who was a lot looser than it is today and everyone wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith in one way or another). Also many women who were married to non-Mormons were sealed to Smith so they could benefit from a celestial marriage they could not obtain with their earthly husband. The idea was that you were married earthly (or temporally) to one man and celestially to another, and to be sealed to the prophet was the greatest honor one could have. This is also why Helen Mar Kimball was sealed to Joseph at age 14. It was arranged by her parents, (her father was an apostle), so it wasn't about sex at all, as she never lived with him. Some historians call it a "dynastic" connection.
That didn't really answer the question. It certainly wasn't all rose pedals and candy according to several accounts. Not singling out JS only but I am referring to him, BY and many of the other elders.
I agree with some of the above all though what some may consider an honor was also viewed by some of those individuals as the only way to receive their perceived salvation-more or less a cultural pressure. I don't disagree that some of the relationships served other purposes but it seems really naive to think that the men and women weren't having intimate relationships with several of their wives. Seems that it would be a safe statement to assume it was happening more than it wasn't happening as members tend to profess.
In my experience I've noticed that our fellow members tend to try and smolder the intent of polygamy when discussing it. Oddly enough I hear the two most casual responses to why it was asked of us were because:
1-build the membership of the church (ironic?)
2-It was of the highest order and necessary to reach the celestial kingdom
On another note-You or I do not know Joseph's relationship with Helen. Historical accounts actually swing both ways as to how intimate it probably was. Considering the fact that the relationship was consensual on both ends certainly could lead to the possibility of intimacy in the relationship and not at all improper. I guess we'll find out after the big dirt nap....
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I think that it is significant that none of Joseph Smith's wives ever accused Joseph of being abusive or feeling repressed even though some eventually left the Church. That is not true for many fundamentalist groups.
What about the girls or husbands of a couple wives he decided to "court"?
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Oh, I have no doubt the policy was abused! I also am well aware women did not necessarily like it. I have had relatives who have been in polygamous relationships who were downright miserable. Same way with LDS ancestors.
Well not to burst your bubble but it's recorded that although many women found it trying many were also quite content with the lifestyle and didn't show issue with it in the least. It's actually somewhat of a misconception that mormon women were dehumanized by the practice. In reality a lot of wives lived lives similar to those of other women during those times. Don't mistake the practices of fundamentalist now with the earlier churches brand of polygamy. They are actually quite different. But I certainly won't argue that the policy was abused by some.
Personally, I'm not quite sure why polygamy is illegal in the first place other than it's simply not a western social norm. I really could care less if consenting adults want to live life this way. As long as people can afford their families it doesn't affect me in the least.
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Read some books thread starter...
When the church announced their practice officially there were no federal laws against it. You can learn all about the history found in several books-rough stone rolling, mormon polygamy ect. Some actions were considered religiously inspired, some actions were considered scrupulous by historians and my self. You are welcome to form an opinion based on the facts uncovered, opinions, and historical context presented by these historians.
However, if you think that sexual relationships with the additional wives by the elders was limited you are simply mistaken. There is documentation all over the place that this wasn't the case. Many of the wives were well aware of this going on and were quite vocal about it with their husbands and in their personal journals.
Some fun quotes on polygamy:
(Orson Pratt) "Monogamy, reasoned Pratt invited immortality. Prostitution could be prevented, in the way the Lord devised in ancient times; that is, by giving to his faithful servants a plurality of wives."-Mormon Polygamy:a History
Brigham Young's second wife (Mary Ann Angell Young) remarked, "God will be very cruel if he does not give us poor women adequate conpensation for the trials we have endured in polygamy."
He said he had the advantage of me, for when his women got tired, you could take them home and change them for a fresh one." Phineas Cook to Brigham Young
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What about dating a little bit longer to get to know each other better and see if you really are a fit? 6 months and "already engaged" seems a little shotgun. You are planning to spend the rest of your life with this individual. Seems like more time/experience/communication/relationship would be best to make sure this is indeed the person for you and vice versa.
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What does reason tell you?
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That makes me happy.
I'm a Gilmore Girls fan, and they've made a couple of Mormon jokes (my theory is to please the high number of LDS fans), but the only one I ever critiqued was when they referenced a single Mormon missionary. NOthing offensive, but we did want to know what the missionary was doing alone. =D
You probably don't want to know what the missionary was doing alone. Speaking from my own mission and listening to stories of my friends there are certain realities in missions that past missionaries don't generally talk about. It's not always happy times, converts with the occasional persecution. Unfortunately everything that you don't think happens on a mission does.
Not to be a downer but that's just reality...
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I don't pray on some sort of regimen-when I wake up, go to bed, ect. I pray when I feel the need to communicate with the lord.:)
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My wife and I watch "House" from time to time. I saw those episodes with the black doctor and I didn't think anything of it. House's character is extremely critical of everything and very condescending. If he met the guy and said, "Oh you're mormon? I really like what you guys do and want to learn more about your church. Let's discuss after helping this patient." it would have been extremely out of character. Never saw this as some attack by Fox to go after mormons.
Mormonism is actually pretty interesting, hilarious, and scary considering the history. Poking fun at yourself is good from time to time IMO.
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There are many encuses but only one reason - sin.
The Traveler
People with comments like this.
Although another person's opinion shouldn't stop you from going to church I'm sure it has a hand in some...
What was the real date of Jesus' birth?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
August 14th and his real name was Jonathan Richman. I'm pretty sure the "revelation" came from one of the Seventy back in the late 70's.