Lucread

And there's the holier than thou BS... THANK YOU FOR SOLIDIFYING MY OLD PERCEPTION OF BULLHEADED LDS MEMBERS!!! "Oh, you don't understand it the way I do so you must be a confused child with little or no testimony who needs to do more research." Your arrogance is astonishing... speaking for others when its only you who are having such a hard time understanding something... you're either freakishly closed-minded or incredibly lacking in comprehension. Stop dealing in absolutes, and never be so prideful as to speak down to another. You assume I've not asked God or had a personal revelation, when in fact I have done so more whole heartedly than many in the church would even think possible, and have had personal revelation on many varying occassions about various things. But I am not prideful, and would not stick it in another's face, as you have been since your first post in this thread. I'm sorry, but people like you are my biggest problem with the LDS church, and as I previously said, are one of the key reasons I left 7 years ago. ~honestly... you're making me sick~

No, Elgama... THATS NOT MY LOGIC!!! You're missing the whole point! I wasn't saying you shouldn't listen to God, I was saying that maybe... JUST MAYBE... God didn't tell Nephi to kill Laban!!! I'm not saying God never spoke to Nephi... and I'm definately not saying God doesn't speak to people. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?! *thanks for deleting the post this was in reference too /sigh

Have you ever lied in your life? Of course you have! So with your logic, how can I possibly believe you're honest about anything else you've ever said? Maybe you don't have a daughter... maybe you didn't leave the church for a year... maybe you're a 12 year old little boy trolling an LDS website. Do you see where this is going? Believing someone lied isn't the same as believing they never spoke any truth... quite contrary, its believing that someone is human... as humans lie... ... why do I suddenly feel like Dr. House... "EVERYBODY LIES!!!" ~lol~

If you are commanded by your boss to kill someone while they're sleeping, is it murder? If you're an assassin for the CIA, and its your job to carry out strategic killings, is it still murder? If someone has wronged you every day of your life, and one day you find them sleeping, and you kill them, is it still murder? If God commands you to kill someone when there are other ways of succeeding in your goal, is it still murder? Yes, yes, yes, and yes... justifications don't change the act. Regardless, though, thats not the argument that was presented. The argument presented was whether or not Nephi was actually commanded to commit murder, or if he just claimed he was as a justification for his actions. It was probing the humanity of the author and the likelihood of God actually commanding someone to break the commandments he set down for everyone to follow (thus the opposing commands). But regardless, my argument was resolved a while ago (as you would see if you actually looked back and read the thread). No, but God didn't kill Laban... Nephi did... and THAT is contradictory to the commandment given us.

Dude... you're like... completely misunderstanding the whole argument. You're assuming a series of absolutes that are not present. I never said Nephi didn't recieve revelations from God, rather that this one instance MAY HAVE BEEN an authorial excuse. Furthermore, I have not once claimed the Book of Mormon to be false, and have quite the contrary affirmed my belief in it. Quite simply... you've just completely misunderstood the discussion.

I never said, or even suggested, that he was mislead by Satan... I did say he may have sinned of his own accord, and then lied about it... regardless, neither of the two state, or even hint, that I wouldn't think God could commune with us directly... in fact the former (though not something I ever said) would suggest that he could, since Satan clearly can't do anything God can't... ... so, I'm still kinda confused where you got that from.

Okay, I understand what you're saying now, but I have to ask... What makes you think that I don't think God can speak to each of us directly? I've not said anything to that effect, here or elsewhere, ever in my life (as I have always believed he can). I think you must have misunderstood something I said somewhere along the way or something.

...... ehhhh... wait, what?

Hello hello Hello hello! We welcome you today. hello! Hello hello! Hello hello! We're glad you came this day, To share with us in our forum say, And discuss the church in a very special way. Hello hello! Hello hello! We welcome you today!

Very good... thank you for that. However why I love this so much is not going to go over well with some, either. I can take this and forgive all things mentioned here in this thread... from the Nephi/Laban event to all the other commands to kill. However, this would then lead to the idea, and belief in a seemingly unperfect God. A God who allows contradictions of his own words to perpetuate the need... a HUMAN persona, if you will. And now I take this, and as I think on it... it actually makes a great deal of sense, especially with the LDS belief structure of God and the eternal cycle. Our Father in Heaven was once like us... somewhere, sometime, very long ago. This would inherently mean that he was, at one point, human. Now regardless of spiritual wholeness, and temporal being, personality, in essence can't possibly be that gravely different. So being once a human, and later becoming a God, as we believe is the way in our faith, then our God would have to be, at some level, who he was when he was within his own test. Therefore, a God who says one thing, then does another, is compeltely feesible, and entirely supported by our beleifs. Geeze... my head is racking now with answers and further ponderings. How oculd I have never thought to apply that explanation to such blatant contradictions? Thank you, Justice... thank you very much! I'm going to have to go back study some more... I haven't done much study with non-scriptual LDS work for a couple of years now (even though I have since sheepishly found my way back into the fold). When you continuosly seek answers from church to church, you tend to continue forward, putting many things behind, as you've already been there... but then you fall victim to that which I have... you forget. And by doing so, you drop a piece of the puzzle you're trying to put together, and when you find the piece that connects it, you're left with just another piece, rather than the whole you should have been prepared to place together. /blah ... THANKS AGAIN!

No offense, Matt, but heavy handed, closed minded, absolute, "you are wrong" statements, such as makes up the bulk of your post, were the reason I left the church 7 years ago. I ask questions and feed discussions for debate. I do not shut myself down and swallow without question, and I feel doing so is a naive perspective to have about anything, especially when it comes to theology. For the record, I am not saying God did anything wrong, in fact, I'm defending him from being seen as a fickle Lord who arbitrarily decides to command his children to break the rules he, himself, laid down for them. Neither am I saying that the Book of Mormon is not scripture, or that it was not translated by the power of God. I am not saying and have not said anywhere that the Book of Mormon is "grievously wrong." All I am saying is that Nephi was human (this is a fact), and am presenting that it is a possibility that he, being human, did something that is inherently human, and fudged the details of his story to vindicate himself from a sin he knew he commited (or even possibly that Mormon fudged the facts, giving Nephi an excuse during his abridgement, if Nephi, himself, did not... because, you know... Mormon was also human). As for the whole obedience and disobedience thing... huh? Where did that come from? Are you implying that I'm being a disobedient sinner becasue I'm presenting a question? Because if thats the case... well... I won't finish that sentence becasue I don't want to get into personal attacks as such are against site rules, and aren't exactly "christian" in nature, so I'll just back away and let your imagination fill in the gaps. But take note that I am offended by your post. I just think you should know that.

My assertion is that being "commanded of God" is an excuse utilized more than once, but using the Nephi/Laban story as a focus. As for this... Uhhhhh... actually... thats exactly what they are, as they were asserted as such. If you don't think any scripture substantiates this, you need to reread Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5... more potently Deuteronomy 5 for its first 3 verses (mostly the first verse), all listed below: Sure the words "these are the ground rules" are never said, but thats as close to a biblical declaration thereof that you could hope for.

Good argument. :) But its flawed... see, he would have had to tell his family what he did, having commited an act that would obviously not be a secret for very long, as Laban's body would without question be found. Thus an excuse becomes a more likely (and logical) lie than a complete account of having say... just stumbling upon the plates ungaurded, taking them and making a run for it. This execution of the story would actually make sense in a way... much as the Old Testament was put together as parables and stories based on truth with holy implications throughout, why could Nephi, or Mormon, even, have entered a story of half truths in order to teach us and/or challenge us in our faith. I don't think I could really ever subscribe to such being the case with this story, however, I can see the validity of the argument (whether you meant such to be a valid point or not). Perhaps... but to say that Nephi never lied seems outrageous... so where do you draw the line? Where CAN you draw the line? (heh, my persona of the ever questioning, ever challenging theologian is cropping up... boy did my parents name me right)

Wednesday... becasue nobody does anything on Wednesday. ~lol~ I'm serious, though, Wednesday is statistically the least filled day. Thats why if you go to the movies on Wednesday, you have the theater to yourself.

Hello!!! Murder is the act of killing someone who is not placing you in any particular harm. Killing as a last resort to a necessity I wouldn't honestly quantify as an act of murder, much as it would be in self-defense given no other out. Nephi's actions fall under this category inasmuch that he was presented with a sleeping man, and rather than figure out a less violent way to get what he needed from him, he took up the man's own sword and cut of his head. This was not a necessity, he could have gotte nthe plates through other means, and even if he had to resort to murder, cutting the dudes head off was still pretty extreme... unless Laban was an immortal, and Nephi either knew how to kill an immortal or was also one himself... in which case, where's the verse about the quickening he recieved?! As for what God considers murder... this has been the plague of humanity for centuries. Killing other people became common place, so the definition of murder was slightly different from place to place throughout the dark and middle ages. Regardless, however, the punishments for murder were almost always (in European society) set forth as God's will. Clearly this wasn't an accurate display of what God meant, but it is something that has even remained until this day, with people on death row being given their last rights before they are executed. But all of that is beside the point. If we take the commandment as to meaning murder, then we are left without precise definition of what constitues murder in God's eyes simply because we do not have a verse where he, himself, explains it. Therefore we are left to discern for ourselves what constitutes the act of "murder." By revelation we should believe as our lands believe. "Abiding by the laws of the land" would indicate what murder is for you given where you are, so the term would be justifiably varied from country to country, as would the temporal punishment for such an act. But bringing it all back to Nephi... I think a better question would be how is it that someone can justify killing a sleeping person who is unaware of your pressence, be you them justified in their purpose or not, as NOT being an act of murder? To address the latter question first; I believe that if I were commanded by a spiritual being to break one of the ten commandments, that it wouldn't be through God... if you catch my drift. As for the first question... unlike as I am meant to as church teachings persist (placing God above all else), I would freely break a commandment to save my children... but thats me. And like I said, thats not what we're SUPPOSED to do. We actuallly had a discussion about this sort of thing in Elder's Quorom recently, and it made me realize how little I hold to the proper order of things. See, the line of importance presented by the church is thus: God/Christ> Self> Spouse> Children/Family> Church> so on and what not. This would indicated that God's commandments are greater than your children, your spouse, and even yourself... the church itself, not sso much, but God and his Son, Jesus Christ, most definately (and the commandments are an extension of God inasmuch as they are the basics... the Core Rulebook of life, if you will). I differ in this teaching by placing things of importance as thus: Children> Spouse> Rest of Family> God/Christ> Self> Church> so on and what not... so fundamentally my answer cannot play into your argument, as I do not hold to the standard of importance presented by the church. (I never said I was perfect.)