[5 things you wish that existed:]

I like the way life is right now.

[Sealing if re-married?]

Heck, I don't have any fundamental disagreements with his supposition that there will be more women then men in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom (don't know if it's true or not but it's a shoulder shrugger for me). I take issue with the claim it is because the nature of women, when it comes to fulfilling responsibilities and roles, is superior to that of men. Even if the starting premise is correct, that there will be more women than men in the Celestial Kingdom (top level or otherwise) one can not use it to logically conclude Tsem's premise and arbitrarily discount nurture as has been done.

So women are better at learning to fulfill their role then men?

I would agree. its in their nature.

I believe that women are better at their role then men are, and its by and for the virtue of women that we really learn to stand up and be men.

Women embrace their role through personal sacrifice, fulfilling their role keeps them humble.

men embrace their role by having leadership over others, this provides a choice between a Satan VS God style leadership that can easily tip. think how easy it is to lose your temper at a child who will not obey your commands.

fewer men make it to the highest levels of the celestial kingdom because of how trying their responsibilities are.

I don't think anyone has a problem with your belief. The problem is when said belief is stated and presented as fact, with nothing more to back it up than your own -- wait for it -- belief.

My testimony is all I have.

[Sealing if re-married?]

Well, seeing as how women are not capable of spontaneous reproduction, I would point out that there are equal numbers of single mothers as there are single fathers.

More women stick with the kid then men, agree or disagree?

As the Final Judgment has not yet happened, I don't believe that there is anyone in the Celestial Kingdom.

there is at least God, and Jesus, and our Heavenly Mother, and God and Jesus's Heavenly Father's and Mother's and theirs Father's and Mother's...

They are all in the Celestial Kingdom already.

As such, we cannot make evidentiary assumptions

Sure we can, this is how we test knowledge, how we learn and grow.

one gender is inherently better at fulfilling their respective roles

How could they not be if more women then men make it there?

We are tested in this mortal life by having revelation of truth tested against our agency and desire/aspiration.

Because women succeed more often in the test then men we can say that women either have a greater desire/aspiration or that they are more able or more comfortable in fulfilling their responsibilities and Acing the test of mortality

Lol. You started the tangent, so it might be more appropriate for you to start a new thread if you'd like to continue it

I started it as an analogy for why there are more women then men in the celestial kingdom. It became a long winded tangent when my belief was questioned.

What reasons would you suggest that there are more women then men in the celestial kingdom?

Or do you think male/female ratios are 1:1?

[Sealing if re-married?]

I think you are forgetting that the Celestial Kingdom is made up of three levels only the top which requires marriage

The top is what I am referencing. There are more women then men there.

You also have yet to demonstrate, even if we limit things to the topmost level, that any demographical imbalance is the result of nature over nurture.

Men and Women have different natures, Male and Female have natural, differing, roles.

There are more women then men at the uppermost echelons of the celestial kingdom.

More women are worthy of being a Mother then there are men worthy of being Fathers.

This must be because women are better at being mothers then men are at being fathers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsem

because women are naturally better at sacrificing of themselves for the care of others

Interesting. Have any peer reviewed studies reaching the same conclusion that have been rigorously controlled for nurture? If you are going to claim it's nature you have to isolate for it else nurture could be throwing things off. Even if you don't have a scientific study to back you up I'm curious how you've rigorously controlled to make sure your experiences are not the result of nurture.

Also keep in mind the plural of anecdote is not data.

Quote:

for women, as you've stated, its in their very biology.

I stated no such thing. I stated by biology they can't be absent from the birth of their own child. Plenty of women 'shirk' their responsibility by having abortions, and simply not killing your own child is not the same as living up to one's responsibilities. Nor are maternal behaviors the sum of sacrifice and responsibility.

Edit: If you are wondering why I'm bothering it's because sexism isn't particularly appealing.

Ah I see, I believe a womens celestial role is to support and nurture. I believe that it is a part of who they are; their gender identity.

Is this what we are disagreeing on?

One of the definitions of moot, the one I meant, is that something is tangential to the discussion. So no, the exact nature of gender roles, here on earth or in the eternities is not a point of disagreement.

I thought that a women's nature was the essence of our discussion.

the gender roles are thus not moot, for my argument is based on the fact that women make better nurturer's because it is in their nature, it is their gender role, their gender identity

The reason I presented this idea was to assert that there are more single mothers then single fathers, this is because women more often live up to their responsibilities then men do, this is because more women embrace being a nurturer then there are men who embrace stewardship and responsibility.

The point of bringing this up was to provide a mental analogy as to why there are more women then men in the celestial kingdom, so Cassious's question of whether or not women will be sealed to multiple male partners if there are not enough wives is only hypothetical. there is, are, and always will be more women in the highest levels of the celestial kingdom then men.

[Sealing if re-married?]

Ah I see, I believe a womens celestial role is to support and nurture. I believe that it is a part of who they are; their gender identity.

Is this what we are disagreeing on?

There are more women then men in the celestial kingdom.

--Evidence? Or is this more claims?

This can be deduced from the fact that polyandry is not ordained of God. If there is Plural marriage, but no polyandry, then there must be more women then men in the Celestial Kingdom. As we know that only those sealed into a family may enter into the highest kingdom, we know that the population of men is at least equal to the population of women. factor in that there are plural marriages but no polyandry, we are left with the anecdote that there are more women then men in the celestial kingdom. as a precursor we know that only those who are worthy can enter into the highest kingdoms of God, we are left with the anecdote that there are more women then men worthy of a celestial glory.

We might be getting into an argument of beliefs here, I did not suppose at first.

I am debating from an LDS perspective.

also: I apologize for derailing the thread.

[Sealing if re-married?]

I have no data, only my perspective of a truth.

There are more women then men in the celestial kingdom.

this is because more women then men reach the celestial kingdom.

this is because they are better at fulfilling their obligations required by a celestial kingdom then men are

womens obligations are to nurture

mens obligations are to lead.

its imprinted in the identity of our genders.

I stated no such thing. I stated by biology they can't be absent from the birth of their own child. Plenty of women 'shirk' their responsibility by having abortions, and simply not killing your own child is not the same as living up to one's responsibilities. Nor are maternal behaviors the sum of sacrifice and responsibility.

Women can indeed shirk their responsibilities. this does not stop it from being in their nature to nurture.

Edit: If you are wondering why I'm bothering it's because sexism isn't particularly appealing.

this isnt sexism. men and women are different. its OK. God is not sexist because there are more women then men in His Kingdom. its just how it is.

Interesting. Have any peer reviewed studies reaching the same conclusion that have been rigorously controlled for nurture? If you are going to claim it's nature you have to isolate for it else nurture could be throwing things off. Even if you don't have a scientific study to back you up I'm curious how you've rigorously controlled to make sure your experiences are not the result of nurture.

Also keep in mind the plural of anecdote is not data.

nature leads to nurture. two sides of the same coin.

[Sealing if re-married?]

Because of court and cultural bias, and biology (Mom can't exactly be absent from the birth)?

because women are naturally better at sacrificing of themselves for the care of others, hence cultural bias and biology.

Women more often live up to their responsibility to care then men live up to their responsibility of stewardship

for women, as you've stated, its in their very biology.

men have to step up to theirs.

[Sealing if re-married?]

Well, that's intriguing, I wonder if it's going to work the other way if there are more men than women?

I strongly believe there will me many more women then men in the Celestial Kingdom.

Women exist in a Celestial glory much more comfortably then many men as women are able to handle their responsibilities therein much better.

a good thought analogy is why there are more single mothers then single fathers.

[Animals in the Gospel]

I'd like to open a discussion about animals with an eternal perspective.

Are animals spiritually begotten by animals with celestial bodies? "all things after their kind"

Are animals tested in mortality? The snake in Moses was "led away" by Satan, and was cursed because of it.

Do animals have a higher intelligence than we see in this life? The Donkey given permission to speak, explaining he can't go forward cause theres an angel in his way.