mdb

Anyone else?

What about the man who claims to be the truth? Do you believe Him? A man seeking the truth is wise, but if a man claiming to already have found it is proved to have done so, I'd believe him.

What was the reason for the priests? What did they do for the people?

What does that mean? Explain.

By that standard, you must reject not only the New Testament but Jesus Christ himself. Paul shows this clearly: For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (Hebrews 7:14) So Christ's priesthood authority is false since he came from the tribe of Judah, and Jehovah was clear that only the tribe of Levi was to officiate in ordinances due to their integrity on Mt. Sinai (see Ex. 32:26-28). So Jesus's claims to authority were false, thus his disciples' teachings were false, thus the gospel as contained in the New Testament is false and we should still be living the Law of Moses as explained in the Old Testament. The Passover should still be observed, not some supper of bread and wine like Jesus taught. Baptism is unnecessary, regardless of what Jesus said. Christ had no authority to teach or institute new ordinances as a Judaean. Man, I'm glad you explained that God does not use new revelation to contradict previous revelation! And here I was believing Jesus's claims! Phew! Free at last! Melchizedek's priesthood (OT) was not of the Levite tribe either. He was without genealogy and a priest before Levi was born. For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (Heb 7:1-3) Regarding Hebrews 7:14, you should read a little further. While reading it I felt compelled to paste three or four chapters of it, but I think most people have access to it and posting so much would be a waste of time. Jesus' priesthood came not through the flesh, but by oath and was written in the Psalms that it should happen this way (Psalm 110:4). That's not a contradiction but a fulfilling of the Scriptures. For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. For He testifies: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Greatness of the New Priest And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’ ” ), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. (Heb 7:14-22) The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” (Ps 110:4)

I look forward to more of a response from you. If I may comment on the above, I do not believe that God could not and does not receive glory in any other way, but this passage is specifically noting glory given "in the Church ... to all generations". In the context of the verse, "all generations" cannot include those generations of pre-Christ origin since the Church was non-existent until Jesus ordained it. The Church is the body of Christ and through it, by Christ Jesus, God will be given glory. Additionally, the priesthood is no longer needed. Jesus is a priest forever and there is no need for any other priest, temple or ordinances. Read the book of Hebrews very carefully. It is quite clear on the subject. Respectfully,

But if this apostasy happened then how would God, by Jesus Christ, be given glory in the church? And this to ALL generations. There would have been a large "generation gap" where no glory would have been given to God in the Church since the Church had fallen until Mormonism appeared. That causes a major problem. Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (Eph 3:20-21)

In order for me to read and accept any of Joseph Smith's words as genuine revelation from God, Joseph Smith has to first be proved credible (This might get deleted because I uttered such a thing). All I'm saying is to check what is said against our only credible source, the Holy Bible. If there's a discrepancy, there's something wrong with the source, not God's word. Any additional revelation God may give will not contradict what has already been spoken since God does not contradict Himself. Joseph Smith said it was given by revelation. That's fine. I can claim the same thing of anything I want to. What authority proves it to be revelation or not? If I prophesy or say, "thus says the Lord" and what is said does not come true, I'm a false prophet. If I say this or that is the truth and it goes against the word of God, I'm a false teacher. God is the authority and His word will always stand. There once was a man who made a false prophecy about a certain temple which was to be built in Missouri within his generation. This event failed to happen. What does that make of the man and how do we know that anything he says is true? Take it for what it is. Your "truth" has to be true before it can hurt.

I don't know how after two postings this got off onto the topic of marriage. That's a whole different can of worms. What about this "falling away"? Isn't it taught that the Church completely fell away? That for a time, after the martyring of the early Church disciples and leaders (Paul, Matthew, Peter, Timothy, etc.), the gates of hell prevailed (so to speak)? That's why Joseph Smith was told not to associate with any of them isn't it? ... start a new thing, they've all fallen into apostasy.

Was there really a complete falling away of the true Church on earth and if so, what proof is there of this happening? The reason for the establishment of the Mormon church is because of this great apostasy.

First, you choose to ignore Numbers 21:5 where it says it was "Elohim" the people spoke against and then in the same passage it says it was Jehovah. Which one was it (if you believe they are two separate Gods)? Second, your "God is love" response is not productive. Love is a trait or quality, not a descriptive of being. Being Spirit and being "love" are not comparable here. Jesus is also the way, the truth and the life - the only means of salvation. That doesn't make Jesus non-physical. I would agree that God is love. He is a loving Spirit. More than just being loving, God IS love - it is His nature. He cannot be unloving. The Scriptures also say that God is light and that there is no darkness in Him at all (1 Jn 1:5). I don't see what your argument is suppose to accomplish? Love, light, truth, life, the way - these are descriptive of God's nature similar to: sinless, holy, beyond reproach, blameless, righteous, perfect, etc. Saying God is flesh and bone or Spirit is a physical description, not an attribute for purpose. He is unchanging. The scriptures say that God is Spirit and you will not find a single place that says He is flesh and bone. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (1 Jn 1:5)

Something more to think about below... Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ [Ex 17:2,7], as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents [Num 21:5-9]; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. (1 Co 10:1-10) And the Lord [Yhwh] went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night. He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day or the pillar of fire by night from before the people. (Ex 13:21,22) And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night. (Ex 14:19-20) Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord [Yhwh] looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. (Ex 14:24) Who went before the Israelites? Was it the Lord or the Angel of God? Actually, both. The Scriptures do not contradict here since the Angel of God (the Angel of the Lord) was the Word who later became flesh, the pre-incarnate Christ. We can clearly see throughout scriptural evidence that Jesus is God. In fact, Christ has to be Lord if the people tempted Him during the exodus. The OT account claims that it was Jehovah that the people tempted and spoke against. If Jesus Christ is not Jehovah, there is a contradiction within the Scriptures. This is not so and can not be true because the holy Scriptures are the words of God and He does not contradict and can not lie. Below are the passages which give an account of the people tempting Christ in the wilderness. Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, “Give us water, that we may drink.” So Moses said to them, “Why do you contend with me? Why do you tempt the Lord? [Yhwh]” (Ex 17:2) So he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the contention of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the Lord [Yhwh], saying, “Is the Lord [Yhwh] among us or not?” (Ex 17:7) And the people spoke against God [Elohim] and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord [Yhwh] sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord [Yhwh] and against you; pray to the Lord [Yhwh] that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. Then the Lord [Yhwh] said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived. (Num 21:5-9) When the Israelites came out of Egypt and Pharaoh and all his army were thrown into the sea, the people sang a song to the Lord. In it a prophetic word regarding the Messiah was sung which says, The Lord [Yah] is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; He is my God, and I will praise Him; My father’s God, and I will exalt Him. (Ex 15:2) And again in Isaiah it says, Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For Yah [Lord], the Lord [Yhwh], is my strength and song; [‘Yah, the Lord’ or ‘Lord, Jehovah’] He also has become my salvation.’ ” (Is 12:2) The Savior is Christ Jesus our Lord, Emmanuel – God with us. He came in the flesh, becoming our salvation by becoming a curse for us (hung on a tree) and rising to life again, conquering death and paying the penalty for our sins. God was pierced for our transgressions (Zec 12:10). And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me [refering to Yhwh] whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zec 12:10) ------------------------------ On another note, someone above said that God the Father has flesh and bone the same as the risen Christ. I would have to disagree. Jesus said, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (Jn 4:24) And regarding the Godhead, how can Jesus our Lord be a God separate from the Holy Spirit (a distinctly separate God in the Godhead according to Mormon theology) when it says, "the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."? (2 Co 3:17)

Discuss as you will. I just thought I would post it as a good scriptural truth. Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” [Jesus] they were indignant and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise’?” Then He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and He lodged there. (Matt 21:14-17) O Lord [Yhwh], our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth, Who have set Your glory above the heavens! Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have ordained strength, Because of Your enemies, That You may silence the enemy and the avenger. (Ps 8:1-2) The chief priests were indignant because the people were giving praise to Jesus. Hosanna translates as, “oh save!” or “save, we pray” – an exclamation of adoration and praise. Jesus’ response to the chief priests is noteworthy since by it He points to His true identity – being God. Jesus quotes a scripture which is given to the Lord (Yhwh), the one and only true God, and indicates this prophetic passage as being fulfilled at that moment in Himself through the praise given by the people toward Him. Without question, by His use of this passage from the Psalms, Jesus says, “I am the Lord. I am Yhwh.” This is in agreement with many other scriptures such as when he asked His disciples, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter responds, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” To Peter’s answer Jesus says, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” (Matt 16:15-17) And Thomas also later responds to seeing the risen Lord by exclaiming, “My Lord and My God!” (Jn 20:28) A great confession to His deity.

The baptism Jesus was speaking of is a spiritual baptism, not physical (by water). John came baptizing by water, but Jesus came baptizing with the Holy Spirit. Anyone being baptized for the dead does not grant that person already passed entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Paul wasn't condoning the act of baptizing for the dead, but was asking, "if you do not believe in a resurrection, why do you who practice this baptizing for the dead do it? It's of no use if they in fact do not rise." Each individual has there time in this life to make a decision to follow Jesus Christ or to deny Him. It is the believing on the Son of God for salvation that saves a man. The ritual of baptism for the dead is futile because it creates a different path to salvation (other than through faith alone) for the one being baptized for. Not only that, but if this work can make provision for another, then one man's salvation is attained by the works of another. The Scriptures say that each man will have to give an account for his own deeds. I cannot do something on your behalf which would save you; I cannot accept Jesus as my Savior for your salvation.

And wine cannot be made in any other way than that of which we know, and that from grapes - except for when our Lord makes it from water because He is all powerful and able. And how can a tree whither under rebuke, a sea part in two, a wooden staff be made a snake, a storm calmed, and Jesus walk on water but by some way men can understand - except for by the power of God? All creation came into existence by God's powerful word and even light was created when He spoke into darkness and said it should be so. I would contend that (as it says in the Scriptures) nothing is impossible for God. As He made you from a sperm and egg so small you need a microscope to see it, He can make Adam out of dust and Eve from a rib.