Hartman

In the early Church many members had prayer rooms with altars in their homes. Here's a couple of quotes discussing this. “President Young said the family Altar was the same as an Altar in the prayer Circle. It is for parents and Children to Join hands over the Altar and pray.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 184) “The family altar should be in every man's house; he is the patriarch of the family, and everything should be done under his direction. He should offer prayer; his wife and children also should offer prayer in turn around the family altar. You cannot be a Saint without the fellowship of the Spirit of God; and you should train your children that they also may know the benefit of having its fellowship.” (George Teasdale, Conference Report, October 5, 1903) The True Order of Prayer was routinely used outside of the Temple in stake buildings, wards, and even homes, until it was banned in 1978. I don't have a problem with making a special room in your home. I think that having a "celestial" room for commercial purposes is in poor taste.

Perhaps Brigham was just leading the people astray by claiming it was doctrine, and the even more serious offense of teaching false doctrine in the Temple ceremony. If you guys are right, Brigham is in a heap of trouble. Anyways, this has been a fun discussion. Unfortunately, I have to go back to my home in the boonies, where internet is as scarce as the hair on my head. Later!

"We believe in God the Father, who is the great Jehovah and head of all things, and that Christ is the Son of God, co-eternal with the Father."(TS 3:578, November 15, 1841) "Suffice it to say that He bore the sins of the world, and, when laboring under the pressure of those intense agonies, He exclaimed, "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass." But it was not possible. It was the decree of God; the fiat of the great Jehovah..."(JD 24:34) Both of these statement clearly differentiate between Jehovah and Jesus. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

This doctrine was taught in the temple through the Wilford Woodruff administration. That is evidenced in the Bunkerville case. The First Presidency of Wilford Woodruff stated that the Lecture at the Veil and been reviewed and approved by the Quorum of the Twelve. I have hundreds of journal entries of Brigham's contemporaries discussing this doctrine. Many of those journal entries talk about discussing this doctrine in the school of the prophets. I have numerous articles from the Millennial Star discussing this doctrine. I have Church hymnbooks with hymns singing praise to Adam, our God and Father. I have numerous general conference talks discussing Adam-God. And you want me to believe that "the greatest interest in this theory came after his death"? By the way, what part of the temple endowment was ever "formally or otherwise accepted by the Church"?

Another name for Jehovah is God the Father. Here are the words of Joseph Smith: "We believe in God the Father, who is the great Jehovah and head of all things, and that Christ is the Son of God, co-eternal with the Father."(TS 3:578, November 15, 1841) "O Thou, who seest and knowest the hearts of all men -- Thou eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah -- God -- Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, "enthroned in heaven," look down upon Thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ, to a greater degree than Thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon him. (HC 5:127) "Shall we shrink at the onset? No! Let every man's brow be as the face of a lion; let his breast be as unshaken as the mighty oak, and his knee confirmed as the sapling of the forest: and by the voice and the loud roar of the cannon; and the loud peals and thundering of artillery; and by the voice of the thunderings of heaven as upon Mount Sinai; and by the voice of the heavenly hosts; and by the voice of the eternal God; and by the voice of innocent blood; and by thy voice of innocence; and by the voice of all that is sacred and dear to man, let us plead the justice of our cause; trusting in the arm of Jehovah, the Eloheim, who sits enthroned in the heavens; that peradventure He may give us the victory..." (HC 5:94) You can also look to Joseph's prayer in D&C section 109 and HC 2:420-426 to see that Joseph did not teach that Jehovah is Jesus Christ, but a patriarchal superior to Christ. Here are some statements from John Taylor on Jehovah: "Hence His profound grief, His indescribable anguish, His overpowering torture, all experienced in the submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah and the requirements of an inexorable law. (The Mediation And Atonement, p. 150) "Suffice it to say that He bore the sins of the world, and, when laboring under the pressure of those intense agonies, He exclaimed, "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass." But it was not possible. It was the decree of God; the fiat of the great Jehovah..."(JD 24:34) "As in the heavens they all agree The record's given there by three.... Jehovah, God the Father's one, Another His Eternal Son, The Spirit does with them agree, The witnesses in heaven are three." (Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1891, p. 295, # 262) "Who has controlled and managed the affairs of the world from its creation until the present time? The Great I Am, the Great Eloheim, the Great God who is our Father. We bow before him." (JD 15:217) One the other hand, John Taylor said the following: "His name shall be called Immanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us. Hence He is not only called the Son of God, the First Begotten of the Father, the Well Beloved, the Head, and Ruler, and Dictator of all things, Jehovah, the I Am, the Alpha and Omega, but He is also called the Very Eternal Father. Does not this mean that in Him were the attributes and power of the Very Eternal Father?" (The Mediation And Atonement, p.138) President Taylor here explains that the titles of Jehovah, I Am, Alpha and Omega, and even "the Very Eternal Father" may appropriately be applied to our Savior, Jesus Christ. Why? Because in Christ were the attributes and power of the Eternal Father. Jehovah is not the proper name of a God, but is a title which may be applied to more than one god. I would suspect that "Jehovah" is not the only title that applies to more that one being.

I'm assuming that your position is that Adam-God was never a doctrine of the Church. However, Brigham Young said it was doctrine. Are you suggesting that he was a false prophet? "A Few Words of Doctrine" Given by President Brigham Young in the Tabernacle in Great Salt Lake City Oct. 8th 1861. A. M. "I will give you a few words of doctrine, upon which there has been much inquiry, and with regard to which considerable ignorance exists... Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our father and God, that will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel because of their folly. With regard to it they yet grovel in darkness and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven, yet the world holds it in derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of baptism for the dead instead of Joseph Smith there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until dooms day. But they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb ass." It sounds like it was a doctrine to me.

I agree that Adam-God is not a doctrine of the Church today, but was it once a doctrine of the Church?

Is "Firstborn" a name or a title, and can that title apply to both the Father and the Son? When Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor used the title "Jehovah" they were generally referring to God the Father. That's no longer the case today. George Q. Cannon commented on how this confusion comes about. "Jesus speaks for the Godhead, the personages who compose the Godhead, and that must be kept in mind all the time, not speaking for himself, but for the Father. It is overlooking this that leads to confusion. Men thinking that Jesus speaks for himself. (St. George High Council Minutes, June 11, 1892, Church Archives) It may very well be that Jesus and the Father are both the "Firstborn". I guess it depends on your perspective. One thing is for certain, the Father was born before the Son.

Since you brought up the Pearl of Great Price... The Bible Dictionary defines the name Michael as one "Who is like God". It then goes on to show that Michael is in fact Adam. Now go to the book of Abraham and read chapter 3, verse 24. Who could this "one" be that is "like unto God"? The footnotes indicate that this "one" is Jesus, but if you read the rest of the passage that just doesn't make sense, as Christ comes into the scene in verse 27. To play upon McConkie's quote: Anyone who has read the Book of Abraham, and anyone who has received the full temple endowment, including the Lecture at the Veil, and who does not yet believe the Adam-God doctrine, does not deserve to be saved.

Does Christ ever speak as the Father, or take upon Himself the titles of the Father? Wouldn't that explain the contradictory scriptures on this issue?

Everyone born on Earth are brothers and sisters. Those not born on earth are our Fathers, Mothers, Grandfathers, Grandmothers, Great-Grandfathera, Great-Grandmothers, and so on. Adam and Eve came here with immortal bodies. They weren't born here. They had to fall from immortality in order to provide mortal tabernacles for their spirit children. Mother Eve was the first to sacrifice Her life, her immortal life, for the benefit of Her children. To me that makes perfect sense, and is much preferable to the mainstream Christian view of the creation and our first parents.

The Church of Jesus Christ, and the Church of the Firstborn are two separate entities. D&C 88:1-5. 1Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you: 2Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the balms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world. 3Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. 4This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; 5Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son— The Comforter mentioned in verse 3 is the Second Comforter, and only those that have received this Second Comforter are those members in the Church of the Firstborn. It is they that have had a blessing at Christ's hands. (see D&C 132:5) Those members of the Church of the Firstborn have had their calling and election made sure. Their exaltation is secure, and they have become joint-heirs with Christ. (Rom. 8:17) They have the fullness of the priesthood, and are sovereign Kings and Queens in the Kingdom. All are equal in the Church of the Firstborn. "They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion." (D&C 76:94-95) The Church of the Firstborn is not organized in the same manner as the Church of Jesus Christ. Very few ever become members of the Church of the Firstborn. If you have not received your second anointings, if you have not met your Savior, if you have not felt His touch, if you have not received a blessing at His hands, if the Savior has not introduced you to the Father, then you can rest assured that you are not part of the Church of the Firstborn.

You stated that you could not see God coming down to sin. I thought Eliza R. Snow eloquently made the case that transgressing the laws of immortality is not a "sin" as we generally define it. According to Brigham Young, and Joseph F. Smith, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael are Father, Son, and Grandson. The family order in Heaven is no different from what God established here on earth. Here is part of a Brigham Young sermon from January 12, 1862, in the Tabernacle: "How has it transpired that theological truth is thus so widely disseminated? It is because God was once known on the earth among his children of mankind, as we know one another. Adam was as conversant with his Father who placed him upon this earth as we are conversant with our earthly parents. The Father frequently came to visit his son Adam, and talked and walked with him; and the children of Adam were more or less acquainted with their Grandfather, and their children were more or less acquainted with their Great-Grandfather." (JD 9:148) Not only do we have a Father in Heaven, but a Grandfather in Heaven, a Great-Grandfather in Heaven, and so on. This is from Joseph F. Smith journal entry describing what was taught in the School of the Prophets: "Elohim, Yahovah and Michael were father, Son and grandson. They made this Earth and Michael became Adam. (Joseph F. Smith Journal, 17 June 1871 entry; Church Archives)

I've never read any of Fred Collier's books. The passage I posted was from "The Women of Mormondom", which is a collection of the writings of many of the leading women who were familiar with the Prophet Joseph and were personally acquainted with his teachings. The passage you attributed to Collier was actually a passage written by Eliza R. Snow, which she claimed was taught to her by the Prophet Joseph. Eliza R. Snow was one of the main contributors to this book. In 1876, Augusta Joyce Crocheron wrote, in reference to Eliza R. Snow's writings in The Women Of Mormondom, "During this year she prepared her second volume of poems for the press, also assisted in selecting and preparing the manuscript for the "Women Of Mormondom," and in raising funds for its publication, and not least of all, gave the proof her attention. Also still continued her labors in the House of the Lord. (Representative Women of Deseret, p. 6) Brigham Young's daughter, Susa Young Gates, in her biography of her father, states: "After prayers that evening he [brigham] sat in council with aunt Eliza R. Snow in the prayer room. Edward Tullidge had compiled a story on the Women of Mormondom which contained some interesting biography on the leading women to the Church and had an account of the heroic struggle of those early years. Aunt Eliza and some of her associates thought it might be proper and advisable to send a group of women out into the world to give lectures on Mormonism and to dispose of the woman's book. Two of the daughters of Brigham Young were included in the list of women who were to go. "It is an experiment -- but one that I should like to see tried," said Brigham Young to Sister Snow at the close of the discussion. (Life Story of Brigham Young, pp. 360-361) The Women of Mormondom was a missionary tool to help show the world the divine nature of women in Mormon theology, and to put to rest this idea that Mormon women were nothing but mindless slaves. You mentioned that we are the church of Jesus Christ, and not the church of Adam. In reality, there are two churches. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the Church of the Firstborn, which is the Church of God the Father. This is from Heber C. Kimball: "Let me explain what the Church of the First Born is. It is the first Church that ever was raised up upon this earth; that is, the first born Church. That is what I mean; and when God our Father organized that Church, He organized it just as His Father organized the Church on the earth where He dwelt; and that same order is organized here in the City of Great Salt Lake; and it is that order that Joseph Smith the Prophet of God organized in the beginning in Kirtland, Ohio. Brother Brigham Young, myself, and others were present when that was done; and when those officers received their endowments, they were together in one place. They were organized, and received their endowments and blessings, and those keys were placed upon them, and that kingdom will stand for ever. . . ." (J.D. 5:130-131) You also have Abraham 1:3, "It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me." Sister Eliza, having received her second anointings and being a member of the Church of the Firstborn, would probably write from that perspective.

Effective 9-24-09 political discussion has been suspended. Any threads of this nature will be closed. Political discussion doesn't really bother me, but I hear that Pam is kind of a stickler on this.

Here's what the Prophet Joseph's wife, the Prophetess and High Priestess Eliza R. snow, had to say on this subject. "Eve -- immortal Eve -- came down to earth to become the Mother of a race. How become the Mother of a world of mortals except by herself again becoming mortal? How become mortal only by transgressing the laws of immortality? How only by "eating of the forbidden fruit" by partaking of the elements of a mortal earth, in which the seed of death was everywhere scattered? All orthodox theologians believe Adam and Eve to have been at first immortal, and all acknowledge the great command, "Be fruitful and multiply." That they were not about to become the parents of a world of immortals is evident, for they were on a mortal earth. That the earth was mortal all nature here to-day shows. The earth was to be subdued by teeming millions of mankind -- the dying earth actually eaten, in a sense, a score of times, by the children of these grand parents. The fall is simple. Our immortal parents came down to fall; came down to transgress the laws of immortality came down to give birth to mortal tabernacles for a world of spirits. The "forbidden tree," says Brigham, contained in its fruit the elements of death, or the elements of mortality. By eating of it, blood was again infused into the tabernacles of beings who had become immortal. The basis of mortal generation is blood. Without blood no mortal can be born. Even could immortals have been conceived on earth, the trees of life had made but the paradise of a few; but a mortal world was the object of creation then. Eve, then, came down to be the Mother of a world. Glorious Mother, capable of dying at the very beginning to give life to her offspring, that through mortality the eternal life of the Gods might be given to her sons and daughters. Motherhood the same from the beginning even to the end! The love of motherhood passing all understanding! Thus read our Mormon sisters the fall of their Mother. And the serpent tempted the woman with the forbidden fruit. Did woman hesitate a moment then? Did motherhood refuse the cup for her own sake, or did she with infinite love, take it and drink for her children's sake? The Mother had plunged down, from the pinnacle of her celestial throne, to earth, to taste of death that her children might have everlasting life. What! should Eve ask Adam to partake of the elements of death first, in such a sacrament! 'Twould have outraged motherhood! Eve partook of that supper of the Lord's death first. She ate of that body and drank of that blood. Be it to Adam's eternal credit that he stood by and let our Mother -- our ever blessed Mother Eve partake of the sacrifice before himself. Adam followed the Mother's example, for he was great and grand -- a Father worthy indeed of a world. He was wise, too; for the blood of life is the stream of mortality. What a psalm of everlasting praise to woman, that Eve fell first! A Goddess came down from her mansions of glory to bring the spirits of her children down after her, in their myriads of branches and their hundreds of generations! She was again a mortal Mother now. The first person in the trinity of Mothers. The Mormon sisterhood take up their themes of religion with their Mother Eve, and consent with her, at the very threshold of the temple, to bear the cross. Eve is ever with her daughters in the temple of the Lord their God. The Mormon daughters of Eve have also in this eleventh hour come down to earth, like her, to magnify the divine office of motherhood. She came down from her resurrected, they from their spirit, estate. Here, with her, in the divine providence of maternity, they begin to ascend the ladder to heaven, and to their exaltation in the courts of their Father and Mother God. Who shall number the blasphemies of the sectarian churches against our first grand parents? Ten thousand priests of the serpent have thundered anathemas upon the head of "accursed Adam." Appalling, oftentimes, their pious rage. And Eve -- the holiest, grandest of Mothers -- has been made a very by-word to offset the frailties of the most wicked and abandoned. Very different is Mormon theology! The Mormons exalt the grand parents of our race. Not even is the name of Christ more sacred to them than the names of Adam and Eve. It was to them the poetess and high priestess addressed her hymn of invocation; and Brigham's proclamation that Adam is our Father and God is like a hallelujah chorus to their everlasting names. The very earth shall yet take it up; all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve shall yet shout it for joy, to the ends of the earth, in every tongue!" (The Women of Mormondom, pp. 196-200)

Is Ron Paul a candidate? As of now, he's not running for anything. :)

I love Ron Paul!!! I was hoping to make it to CPAC this year, but circumstances just didn't allow it. I was able to watch Ron and Rand's speeches, which were both very good. I loved this quote from Ron's speech, "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of rich countries and giving it to the rich people of poor countries." It was great to hear that Ron Paul won the straw poll again this year. The R3volution has continued to grow over the past few years. Hooray for Liberty!

You can find the complete account of the Bunkerville problem in Craig Tholson's book "Adam-God". It's kind of hard to find, but you should be able to get it through inter-library loan. I also have an e-file that I could send you.

Here's an interesting case regarding the Lecture at the Veil. This is a letter that L. John Nuttall submitted to the First Presidency in preparation for a Church court trying Bishop Bunker of the Bunkerville ward. "In January 1877, shortly after the lower portion of the St. George Temple was dedicated, President Brigham Young, in following up in the Endowments, became convinced that it was necessary to have the formula of the Endowments written, and he gave directions to have the same put in writing. Shortly afterwards he explained what the Lecture at the Veil should portray, and for this purpose appointed a day when he would personally deliver the Lecture at the Veil. Elders J. D. T. McAllister and L. John Nuttall prepared writing material, and as the President spoke they took down his words. Elder Nuttall put the same into form and the writing was submitted to President Young on the same evening at his office in residence at St. George. He there made such changes as he deemed proper, and when he finally passed upon it said: This is the Lecture at the Veil to be observed in the Temple. A copy of the Lecture is kept at the St. George Temple, in which President Young refers to Adam in his creation & c."[signed] L. John Nuttall For Presidents:W. Woodruff Geo. Q. Cannon Jos. F. Smith June 3, 1892 Salt Lake City (L. John Nuttall Papers, 4:290) Bishop Bunker, and his father, didn't believe in the doctrine contained in the Lecture at the Veil. This is from the stake high council minutes: "High Council of St. George Stake met in St. George Tabernacle. President Ivins stated that he had learned that Father Edward Bunker of Bunkerville, in this Stake, had been teaching that some of the ceremonies at the Temple were wrong, and erroneous teaching was given in the Lecture at the Veil. As Elder Myron Abbot, 1st Counselor to the Bishop at Bunkerville had given some information on this matter, it was decided to learn from him, more definitely in relation to this matter." (St. George Historical Record, November 8, 1890, Church Archives) On December 13, 1890, the Bunkerville Ward Bishopric were invited to come before the Stake Presidency to voice their differences: "High Council of St. George Stake met at St. George Tabernacle. In response to invitation of the Presidency of the Stake, Bishop Edward Bunker Junr. and Elders Myron Abbott and Joseph I. Earl were present. President McArthur invited the brethren named to express themselves on the views said to have been expressed in Bunkerville Ward and which are considered by some to be unsound doctrine. Myron Abbott, counselor to Bishop Edward Bunker, Junr., stated that for a number of years, questions on Church teachings had been agitated in Bunkerville Ward. Bishop Bunker had stated he did not believe Adam was our God and bishop Bunker had expressed his opinion that some teachings in the temples were wrong, -- notably -- part of the Lecture at the vail -- That Father Bunker had the same views. Father Bunker stated to him (Bro. Abbott) a number of years ago that Adoption would be of no avail as administered in the Temple. All such work would have to be done over again. Bp. Edward Bunker, Junr. among other things said: "In regard to the lecture at the vail in the Temple, it is certainly wrong. It teaches that Eve was an immortal being and was brought here by Adam." Did not believe this. "Thought that Adam was not a resurrected being." In answering question of councilor Cannon, expressed his belief that Adam was the Archangel and that Jehovah and Michael were persons of Spirit; that Eloheim was a person of Tabernacle; and the Head of all. After a prolonged second session of the Council Bishop Bunker and his Counselor, Myron Abbott felt they had done wrong in contending on the subjects referred to. (Ibid., December 13, 1890) The St. George Stake High Council Minutes for this meeting reveal some of the proceedings. Councilor Cannon read the "Lecture at the Veil" (the same one Brigham Young dictated) and stated: ... the lecture says Adam was an immortal being and Eve the Mother of all living bore those spirits in the Celestial World and Adam and Eve came here to form Tabernacles for them to dwell in. (High Council Minutes, December 1-3, 1890, Church Archives) Eventually, the First Presidency felt the need to get involved in this conflict. Since it was the Lecture at the Veil that was at issue, the First Presidency made the following statement: "Prest. Young was so careful that he would not allow Bro. Cannon or anyone else to quote it, but had it written down to be read at the veil. Councilor Cannon said the Endowments were organized in Joseph's brick store in Nauvoo. Prest. Young said he wanted to deliver the Lecture at the veil and 4 men were writing [it down]. And after they had got through, the memos were given to Prest. Young to revise and as he revised it, Prest. George Q. Cannon wrote it very slowly and after Prest. Young's death it was sent for by the Twelve Apostles and closely scrutinized and there was only one thing changed in it and then accepted by them and no man has any right to say anything against it." (St. George High Council Minutes of the Trial of Edward Bunker, Sr., June 11, 1892, Church Archives) President George Q. Cannon went on to say: "Adam was created like we are." (Ibid.) He further testified: "... in the name of Jesus Christ that Adam was born just as we are born. The lecture at the veil is true ... procreation is the gift of eternal lives, and if we are faithful we shall create worlds and people them just as Adam has done." (Ibid.)

Hey everyone! My name is Brent, and I thought I'd take some time to introduce myself. I'm married to my wonderful wife Amanda. We have six children. Four girls, and two boys. Our oldest is twelve, and our youngest just turned one. Our last three children have been born at home. We also homeschool our children. I've been a member of the LDS church my entire life. My wife is a convert. We were sealed in the SLC Temple. I love to study the gospel. It pretty much consumes my life. Studying has got me in trouble at times. For instance, my wife and I lost our temple recommends for our testimony of Brigham Young's Lecture at the Veil, which was once part of the temple ceremony. However, I don't have any hard feelings, and I still love the Church. We currently live in Missouri, which is where I've lived most of my life. I grew up in Chillicothe, which is about a half hour drive from Adam-ondi-Ahman, which is my favorite of the Church history sites in this area. I love the prophet Joseph Smith, and have a strong testimony of all the doctrines that he established for this dispensation. I know that we have Heavenly Parents that love us very much. I'm also grateful for the atoning sacrifice that our Savior made for us. I've enjoyed going through some of the post, and look forward to getting to know the people behind the comments. Later!