livingstone
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Posts posted by livingstone
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The "Gift" is always to be accompanied by someone to interpret. I guess Joseph did that.
The tongue that needs an inerpretation is only one of the eight operations of tongues.
And that is one of the gifts of the Spirit, 1 Cor 12: 10.
It is different to our everyday Holy Ghost tongues. Mk 16: 17.
Mk 16: 17 says everyone can speak in tongues,
But 1 Cor 12: 10 says, "ONE IS GIVEN" Tongues that'll be interpretate.
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So as far as I remember being taught, the gift of Tongues was a gift that seems to mostly help us communicate in another human language and is usually a story that a missionary tells us of "well I wasn't doing so great in the language, but this one time..." kind of story.
However, I was listening to Past Impressions Episode 22 - Kirtland Temple and they said that Brigham Young spoke in tongues during the dedication. They talked like this was a common thing in the time, and I did some googling and they said that he was speaking the language of God or something. When did this stop and why? Are there any more recent accounts of an apostle or prophet speaking in Tongues?
There are about eight different operations of tongues recorded in the Bible.
A foriegn languege inspired by the Holy Spirit is one, Acts 2: 4--11.
Then there is a operation of tongues that no man can understand, Only God. 1 Cor 14: 2.
This is different to Acts 2:4--11.
The gift of the Holy Ghost, with spealing in tongues has been given to the Church and has never ceased, And it won't end until the Church age is over.
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The underlined is not in the Bible.
Members of the Lord's Church believe that God has provided a way for all to accept or reject the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they did not have the opportunity to do so in this life, they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ in the next.
Acts 17:30 doesn't say what you are saying it says. Nor does the context of the chapter support your interpretation.
[1] The underlined is in the Bible. Matt 24: 14. Matt 28: 18--20.
The Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers and disciples took the gospel all over the world.
The gospel and the power of God has always been in the TRUE CHURCH, And always will be.
Today God has many ways of getting the gospel out to the people, We have satalight TV, we have the internet, And we have fast airoplanes to get us around the world to preach the gospel.
[2]Give me at least two Bible scriptures that say people have a chance after they die.
You have made a statement, So back it up with scriptures.
And not 1 Cor 15: 29, Becaue Paul wasn't making a doctrine out of baptisms for the dead.
Why he said what he said, was There was a group of people who were baptising for the dead, So paul just stated the fact,,
"If there is no resurrection, Why do you baptise for the dead".
Not only that, But you need at least two scripturs to build a doctrine, And there is no scriptures that state you can baptise for the dead.
I came on this forum to see what LDS believe, And I can see that they don't believe the Bible, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THIS FORUM FOR A DAY YET.
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Yep, you're a Mormon... as far as it is interpreted correctly. :)
I am a born again Spirit filled tongue talking child of God who moves in the gifts of the Spirit.
I believe the whole Bible and Sola scriptura.
I am a Saint and it is the latter days.
So in the Biblical way I am a true and proper later day saint.
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The underlined is not in the Bible.
Members of the Lord's Church believe that God has provided a way for all to accept or reject the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they did not have the opportunity to do so in this life, they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ in the next.
Acts 17:30 doesn't say what you are saying it says. Nor does the context of the chapter support your interpretation.
[1]Give me at least two Bible scriptures that say we have a chance after death.
[2]Read what Acts 17: 30 says, DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT SAY. God overlooks ignorance??
Until one hears and knows the gospel, They are ignorant, But having said that, Everyone has the chance to hear the gopsel, God has lots of ways of getting His word out to people.
And once a person hears the gospel, They have to respond in this life.
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See 1 Corinthians 15 (especially verse 29). Paul uses the practice of baptisms for the dead to prove that there is a resurrection.
But, proper interpretation of Malachi 4 (especially verses 5-6) gives you the foundation for salvation after one dies coupled with Hebrews 11 (especially verse 40). It is basically telling you that Elijah will be sent by God in the fullness of the dispensation of times to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and their children to their fathers... or, in layman terms - that all generations of men will be sealed together in the last dispensation because, as implied by Hebrews 11:40 - it is together with the living that the dead may be made perfect.
This sealing has to be available for the dead - how else are you going to seal Abraham/Noah/David/etc. etc. to all the generations until the end times? Otherwise, as Malachi 4:6 warns - we are indeed cursed.
Livingston... God has given a way for everyone to accept or reject Jesus YES. THERE IS NO EXCEPT about it. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE that says there is an EXCEPTION. When God said everyone, He meant EVERYONE. YES, the gospel will be preached to all the world before the end!
But... PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY DIED! And it's not the end yet! And they haven't heard of Jesus Christ!
I never said He hasn't! YOU said He gave exceptions for the Igorots - because, they died before they even heard of JESUS! No He didn't! There are no exceptions!
And that's why I've been trying to tell you... God gave a way for Igorots to accept or reject Jesus Christ after they die. They are taught the gospel after death. They are baptized by a living proxy and they are then asked to accept or reject that baptism. This will be accomplished for all mankind from Adam to the last man on earth "before the end".
I didn't call God a liar. I only said your interpretation of that verse is lacking.
[1] Paul wasn't making a doctrine of baptising for the dead in 1 Cor 15: 29. He was just stating the fact of the resurrection. And some people were doing baptism for the dead.
You need at least two scriptures to build a Biblical doctrine And 1 Cor 15: 29 isn't one of them.
So Two Bible scriptures that sa you can be baptised for the dead.
[2]What has Malachi 4: 5-6 and Heb 11: 40, Got to do with having a chance after death.
Malachi 4:5--6 is talking about John the baptist, He came to prpare the way for Jesus.
Yopu are twisting what the Bible says,
That is a sign of a false cult.
[3] Show me where the Bible says people get a chance after death.
I want clear scriptures,[At least two], The Bible says, By two or three witnesses let every word be established, So At least two scriptures please.
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As do Latter-day Saints.
You say you believe the Bible, But do you know what it says??.
God warns of the dangers of adding to His word. "WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THOSE VERSES"??
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Livingstone
As you might have guessed by now, members on this site have heard all this before and generally are well schooled in it. It is nothing new. We hear it all the time. Sometimes we get a bit short with new comers who come here thinking to convert all us heathen Mormons with what we understand is a less than well understood version of bible teaching. Others like me, have had their own blogs and discussed these things many many times before. Many of us attended church universities, attended four years of seminary and are returned missionaries. Some have advanced degrees in religion and have studied this stuff for decades. We hope not to be offensive but sometimes are. I apologize if I have given offense.
People do get offensive when they hear the real truth, "The Bibles's truth".
I don't care what degree you have, If what you believe doesn't match what the Bible says, It isn't of God.
You tell me how the mormens started, And I will tell you if they are of God or the devil.
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Maybe we are talking past each other. It happens often in my case. We believe the bible to be the Word of God in so far as it is translated correctly. Where we differ is whether it was translated as God intended. As I understand, you are saying your traditions tell you is more accurate than what God would tell you if you asked him personally. All of LDS theology is based on receiving direct communication from God upon humble and sincere supplication. You suggest two thousand years of traditional man-interpreted tradition is a better way of understanding God and what He wants for us. As proof you cite a fairly recent notion that God is sovereign and therefore the bible must have been interpreted correctly and that nothing important has been mistranslated or deliberately left out. Yet I can provide and have, several volumes of reasons to support what we suggest from non-LDS writers, that supports what we teach. But the only one that really matters, sincere and humble prayer, you deny. You completely deny Christ when He said ask it will be given.
Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. I can provide more scriptural sources that tell us to do just the opposite of what you are saying to do. We suggest everyone do just what Proverbs says and make it a part of worship. You say to trust your traditions.
[1]God said, [in the Bible] "You can't add to His word, or take away from His word".
So if you believe the Bible, You know you can't add anything more to what God has already said in the Bible.
[2]The Bible says it is adequate to complete us, And as that is true, We don't need anything else.
[3]So read the Bible, Do what Poverbs 3: 5-6 says, Ask God to teaveal truth to you, Have an open mind and a teachable spirit and be willing to repent and turn to God'd teal truth,[The Bible]
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We have a saying in Mormondom: milk before meat. I would very much like to get into why we have a different take on this. But there are some fundamentals that may need explaining first.
From a Mormon point of view, which is what we are discussing, Christ died to save every person born on the earth. That means every person will be resurrected. If He had not sacrificed himself we would all have been condemned to outer darkness with Satan and his angels and followers. But that doesn't mean every person resurrected will be living with God in his presence. It just means we all will take up a perfect physical body just as Christ did. What happens after that is another story.
The bible is correct in as much as it is translated correctly. It has gone through several iterations. From the first Aramaic and Hebrew to Greek and Latin to English. Some of the Old Testament was left out too. The Book of Mormon is a history of another group of God's children starting about 600 BC. Christ visited them at the time of His crucification. With the Book of Mormon, it is easier to understand what the Bible says. It doesn't replace it. It is an adjunct to it.
Maybe I have gone a bit off course but I don't know from you are starting. In any event, there is a good deal of difference between what you are saying and what we believe those same words mean. For example, Elohim can mean chief God or highest God as a title rather than a personal name or description of His nature. Given there is but one God and He has said there were other gods in Genesis, it could also mean that there are divine beings of a perfected nature along with God the Father. Ergo, gods, small g, preserves God the Father as Elohim and still allows for other perfected beings of a lesser nature, e.g., Christ and others. Christ's prayers and many comments about being different from His father point to the two being separate and distinct rather than supporting the Trinitarian view. We agree they are not angels in the sense most people understand angels to be. We also believe everything is created under God the Father's direction. We think Christ was the administrator so to speak acting under assignment.
If you think there is a difference between what the Bible says and what the Mormon book says, You'll have to change your believeing, Because God won't change His word to suit you.
God says you can't add to, or take away from His words that are recorded in the Bible.
God warns of the danger of adding to and taking away.
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Yes, if you stay with what the Bible teaches, you can't go wrong. But, THAT is taking into consideration that the BIBLE is complete. That it contains ALL truths. That the people who chose which books go in the Bible had the complete word of God and that God is done with His work - just waiting for the end times.
The Catholics do not subscribe to sola scriptura, neither do the LDS.
The Bible is compleat, God warns of the dangers of Adding to and taking away from His word.
God inspired the translators to put into the Bible,[AS we have it today], Everything we need for salvation, To Grow in God, faith, knowledge and love.
God confirms His word [The Bible] with signs following.
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You are on the right path my friend. May I suggest the next step is to pray to God asking for His help in discovering His true gospel. Have faith that He will provide if you are sincere, humble and teachable. By true I mean his authorized and complete gospel. Traditional Christianity only takes you so far. It doesn't mean we think it is wrong - just limited. We believe they are good honest people doing the best they know how. They just don't know everything God has available. It is our job, our responsibility to help those folks take the next steps. But you don't need to believe any person. We are mistake prone too. God will talk to you directly through the Holy Ghost if you are serious and willing to listen. Our People | Mormon.org is interesting.
The Bible's gospel is all you need for salvation. It isn't limited, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT SILLY IDEAR FROM??
God warns of the dangers about adding to His word, You can't add anything else to what God has said in the Bible.
God also warns of the dangers of taking away from His word.
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Livingstone, you are sounding more and more like a Mormon. You may be one and not know it.
I am a person who believes the Bible and eccepts the truth in it.
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Correct. But, if God was both Just and Merciful, but do not offer this after death, then He would have found a way for ALL mankind to accept or reject Jesus while alive on earth. Yet, we know He didn't... because, you know, the Igorots never heard of Him so they can't accept nor reject him. They get a free pass! So, what makes Igorots so special?
P.S. Your interpretation of Acts 17:30 is dismal. You might want to read the entire chapter and put that verse into its proper context.
[1]Where doese the Bible say that God offers salvation after one dies.??
[2]God has given a way for everyone to te ceive or reject Jesus, Everyone will know the gospel before they die, Except for those in the remotest places who may never hear the gospel.
But Jesus said the gospel will be preached in all the world before the end.
God has found a way for all to receive or reject, WHY DID YOU SAY HE HASN'T??
[3] I think you should take a look at Acts 17: 30 and tell me what it says,
ARE YOU CALLING GOD A LIAR.
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Not always.
You are suggesting that God is not merciful by that statement. You are saying that He forces people to do evil with that statement.
God in His mercy Sent Jesus to die for everyone, Those who reject His free offer of salvation have chosen their own destiny.
God gave every one a free will, And never forces people to do evil.
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Not so Livingstone. The bible tells us everyone will have a chance to hear the gospel preached to them and to make up their minds whether to accept or reject it. It also tells us no man may go to the Father save through Jesus Christ and baptism. God has made provisions. It is just that many traditional Christians believe in Christ, they just don't believe Him. They prefer their traditions.
That is true, But only in this life. Everyone will hear the gospel in their lifetime, And it is up to them what they do with what they know.
If anyone in a remote island never hears the gospel, God will overlook their ignorance.
Acts 17: 30 says God overlooks ignorance.
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So, let's put this thought on a practical application.
Munggo is an Igorot who lives on the remote mountains of Banawe, Philippines. A good man, a wise father, worships the narra tree in the middle of the village because that's what his father taught him who learned it from all the fathers back through the centuries... Never even heard of Jesus Christ, let alone the Bible or any of that Atonement stuff. Of course, needless to say, he's never been asked if he would like to be baptized....
He died.
Now what? It was his choice to be a narra-tree-worshipping Igorot? What other choice did he have?
The Bible says in Acts 17: 30. That God overloooks ignorance, So if anyone has never heard the gospel, God won't hold them acountable.
It is only when one hears the gospel that God will hold them acountable for what they do with it.
God is a loving God And a just God, It wouldn't be fair if God condemned a person who didn't know anything about salvation.
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With respect Livingstone, the bible is chock full of errors. I understand the current popularization that God is sovereign therefore the bible must be absolutley correct in every way. However, even the most rudimentary inspection of the book will prove what I am saying. May I suggest that it is interpretation of scripture that has gotten so many people into trouble doctrinally but it is also because the bible is less than clear on so many important issues. The nature of God is the first thing that comes to mind. It bears directly on whether Christ and God the Father are one being or two separate beings.
A little outside reading might be helpful. I suggest Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. Also, one British writer from Oxford is J G Davies. I think I got his affiliation right. His book The Early Christian Church will help too. Neither writer is LDS. Both are university religion professors and researchers. They are true academics. Both writers will provide an easy to read history of how the bible came to be. Both will explain what the first , second and third century Christian fathers had to day about religious doctrine and how that was changed in the fourth and fifth centuries and in some cases, why.
Thats because you don't know how to understand the Bible, And a lot of people get it wrong because they don't know how to understand the Bible.
You need to know who is doing the talking,
Is it
[A] God,
A Bible character,
[C] The Bible translaters, [there are lots of translations of the Bible that are wrong in places]
[D] The the Bible teacher.
When you understand that, You'll see the Bible isn't full or errors.
As for it not being clear on important issues, IT IS, When you know what the original Hebrew and Greek texts says.
For instance, The Hebrew word for, "God" in Gen 1: 1., Is "Elohim" it is a plural meaning.
And Gen 1: 26, God backs it up by saying,
God, "Elohim" .[plural] said, Let US,[plural] make man in OUR,[PLURAL] image after OUR [plural] likeness.
Gen 3: 22.
God "Elohim" [plural] said man has become as one of, US, [plural].
God made the trinity very clear in the very first book of the Bible.
There is sno way it can be twisted, Because the original Hebrew text backs up those verses.
Some people say, Elohim means Angels, "Rulers and mighty beings", [WHICH IT CAN] But not in the contexts of Gen 1: 26 and Gen 3: 22. because they never created anythibg. God and God alone is the creator.
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Whose Biblical Teaching? Because, LDS, Catholics, Protestants, etc... they all use the same Bible yet they teach different things...
I joined this forum to find out what the LDS believe and how they started. So I don't know what they teach, But I know catholics don't teach Biblical truths.
They DO twist the scriptures to try to form their beliefs, Such as purgaory,Praying to Mary, priests giving absolution to name some of their wrong doctrines.
If you say with what the Bible teaches, You can't go wrong
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I would like to tell you my story briefly and see what you guys think. I was a pretty hard-core Born Again Christian for at least 6 years. Then I eventually fell into disbelief and deep agnosticism. I totally abandoned the faith. During this time I said horrible things about the Holy Spirit, God, & Jesus. I viewed these beings as evil and unjust.
Now I've recently been called back the LORD. Or at least I feel that way. Through reason and logic, I believe in a Creator once more. Not only that but I feel Mormonism is the best representation of the Christian faith and the most logical. One big problem, though. I fear I have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I know Joseph Smith stated,
“All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.’
Does this mean I'm not guilty of the sin since I was acting out of ignorance and had no physical evidence that God existed?
If you were truely born again, You had all the evidence you needed.
I can't see how a person who had a real born again experience can do what you did.
Check you walk-away experience with Hebrew 6: 4--6 and Heb 10: 26--31.
God wouldn't call you into a mormon faith, If God was calling you back, It would be into a Charismatic type of Church that teach the rebirth, the baptism in the Holy Ghost and where the Holy Spirit is moving and the Gifts of the Spirit are in operation.
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This is something I found on Mormon.org, which I figured was a good resource, and confirmed by a friend of mine.
As God’s first children on earth, Adam and Eve were living in their garden paradise. They didn’t feel any sorrow or pain, which might seem nice, except that without it, they also couldn’t feel joy. They didn’t remember their pre-earth life. If they hadn’t eaten the forbidden fruit, they would have lived like that forever and never had children. Mankind never would have been born or the world populated.
Quoted from: God's Plan of Happiness | Mormon.org
This clearly isn't what the Bible teaches. The Bible tells us in Genesis 2 prior to the fall of man kind. That God commanded Adam & Eve to be fruitful and to multiply.
People fall int error when the move away from the Biblical teachings.
If anything doesn't agree with the Bible, It isn't from God.
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We use the Bible as far as it is correctly translated.
But i have fantastic news for you God is very much live and He still communicates with us. The Bible is a beautiful sacred work, deep and meaningful, great way to know of God. BUT it is not God, God is more than a book.
Nothing trumps that personal relationship, and we have the advantage of greater understanding than most Christian Churches. We have the Gift of the Holy Ghost and God's prophet on Earth.
I am LDS because God taught me it was the right path, not because the Bible said so. The Bible is the Word of God because God says so.
God and His word are one, Therefore the Bible is God speaking to us, And revealing truth.
We get to know God through the Bible's teachings.
We, Through knowledge , belief and exceptance of the Bible can have a deep relationship with God, In fact if a person doesn't have a relationship with God, They aren't saved.
The Bible teaches the rebirth into the family of God, It teaches that all born again believers can and should have the Holy Ghost and His gifts.
God will only confirm His word, And the Bible is His word.
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This question is just for non-LDS readers.
How do you feel about the LDS practice of doing temple work for your dead ancestors? I ask because the people for whom we perform these ordinances have non-LDS relatives too.
(Sometimes in the past non-relatives names were submitted but that is not the accepted practice. If it is done currently it is not in keeping with the disclaimer submitters must acknowledge before they can submit a name. The rules have tightened up from what they were before.)
It is a waste of time because it is to late when a person is dead.
They chose their destiny while they are alive on the earth.
Speaking in Tongues
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Who said the second type of tongue is rare??
There are eight operations of tongues recorded in the Bible, And everyone is important for the Church today.