[Does the LDS faith offend the Jewish?]

Vort,

Since we are all mortals there is no way that you or anyone else can speak for another human being in this world or the next on what they do or do not believe.

Just because a Jew does not belong to the LDS church does not mean they absolutely dis-believe the LDS ordinances can or cannot touch a person. Jews are not so black and white in their thinking and beliefs as you seem to be. Jews are highly encouraged to seek and study for themselves. There is no specific creed or dogma among most Jews (save perhaps the most Orthodox that are quite the minority).

Jews are for the most part open to theory and think in terms of possibilities. Although the majority do not believe in a literal hell as many christians do, they do believe in life after death which can most possibly and even probably include a full consciousness and personal identity of themselves, their name and identity with other Jews. It is why the naming of a Jew is so important and why lineage is also important to a Jew.

One thing that is highly impoetant to the majority of Jews is the REMEMBRANCE of their dead ancestors.

A Practice called yahrzeit is when a living family member or dear friend will light a candle over the name of the deceased on the anniversary of their death. It is a way of remembering their name. A prayer called the Mourners Kaddish is recited in remembrance of the deceased. It is not a prayer for their soul. It is a prayer to honor God in their memory. The reciting of their name and remembering their name is extremily important.

There is a specific day of REMEMBRANCE holiday set aside for Jews who perished in the holocaust called Yom Hashoah. At this time many Jews make candles or get them from synagogues and Jewish Community centers and label each one with the NAMES of the murdered ones. They then light the candle and say the Mourners Kaddish which is a prayer NOT FOR THEIR SOUL but to HONOR GOD IN THEIR MEMORY since the murdered Jews may not have family or people around to say the Mourners Kaddish for them. Again the name of the deceased is important because as the other poster stated, that is all they have. Their name is their constant even when there is no one to remember them as they were in life.

There is a very heart warming story of a man who just before his death in the gas chamber siad that he hoped that "his people": Not his family sindce they were also about to die, but his people the National of Israel, fellow Jews, would say Kaddish and REMEMBER HIS NAME. Not people that remembered him opersonally but his name. It is that important.

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with LDS or being LDS. It is an important ritual. Even though I am a member of the LDS church, I want upon my loved ones to observe Yahrziet after my own death and say the Morners Kaddish and honor God in my memory.

For Jews this gives comfort to the surviving family and for many it is believed it also gives comfort to the deseased as well. A Jew's name and the memory of that name is very important. It is what Jews have that they hold dear whether it is etched on a yahrziet wall in a synagogue, or remembered on the inside cover of a prayer book, or spoken verbally by another or merely scralled on a sheet of paper.

Now back to the baptism ordinances. Vort, WHY would it be important for you to submit the name of baptize by proxy a name presented to you someone who did not give their consent or whose living family members opposed it? Why is it so important to YOU? I ask this especially since the Church has agreed not to baptize holocaust victims per their request and/or the request of their relatives still living.

Believe me when I come across a fellow Jew that tells me they would be fine with me performing an ordinance, I would be proud and honored to be able to be a part of it. And I would also likely still recite the Mourners Kaddash for them on the anniversary of their death.

For those that have expressed that they do not want their name submitted for baptism, OR even if an athiest Jew asked me to not recite Mourners Kaddish for them, I would refrain from doing that too because I believe that truly loving our neighbors as ourselves as Jesus taught us to do; means to also honor and respect their wishes, and to leave the judging of them to God. And there is no honor in calling them derrogatory names or accusing anyone of bigotry when they simply are not comfortable with having their precious name and identity (and yes it is precious to them), for the sake of you feeling superior in your thinking. It simply serves no good purpose.

[A field trip to Hooters]

Oh my gosh we are laughing so hard it hurts at that photo on the hat. No one in my family thought of anything other than it's being a weird looking owl with huge eyes. Whoever can mamage to think of the owls eyes as a womans breasts sure has a bigger imagination than we do. LOL

My husband just said this comparison reminds him of when Jerry Falwell was insisting that the children's cartoon show "Teletubbies" should be banned because one of the

teletubbies" appeared to be gay.

Or when he encouraged Baptists to ban Disney because there was something in the "Lion King" Movie that appeared to be satanic.

I guess if a person wants to see or interpret something in just about anything, they will if that is where their thoughts are.

It's like that old psychology ink blot test, or imagining what you see in cloud formations. Not everyone "sees" the same thing.

[Eternal Perspective On Marriage]

Brokendoll,

When I saw your screen name I thought, wow if I have had the discipline and time to write a book about my life, I could use that screen name as the title to the book.

I can certainly identify with you. My story is not the same as yours, but suffice it to say that when we start our lives in a disfunctional family, ir often results in us making poor choices that in turn can have a snowball effect later on in our lives.

To be brief (not always easy for me) LOL, I was not conceived in love, never knew my biological father, birth mother dropped me off on a street corner in a baby buggy (literally), and I wound up being raised by a well meaning couple that unfortunately had some serious mental and emotional problems and a very distorted view of religion which in turn caused repeated violence and suffering for all who lived under their roof.

I spent my childhood surviving and patiently waiting to turn the magical age of 18 so I could flee from that home and make my own life. Only problem is, I had no skills and no clue as to how I was going to make my own life. The good part is that survivors like me tend to be very self preserving so I never got caught up in drugs or alcohol or anything that could cause me harm.

So I got married because higher education was not encouraged for girls back then except for the priveledged. And since like your situation, loving and well functioning family skills was not a part of my frame of reference, I had no clue how to be a wife and mother. Unfortunately my very young and naive husband had no clue how to be a husband and father. Needless to say the marriage failed miserably.

Now the differences between you and I is that I was not a member of the church when I married the first time. And I did not remarry for quite a long time and by choice opted to raise my children in a single parent home. I think I searched out just about every religion there was trying to make sense of what my purpose in life really was and what if anything was God's plan for me. But for much of my life never being sure as to where I belonged physically or spiritually.

When I first began investigating the LDS church, I actually felt uirritated by an LDS video that said something about how Heavenly Father sent us to earth to have bodies and he sent us "kind and good" parents to love and guide us. I used to think HUH????? Where were my kind and good loving parents??? I also had a hard time relating to the desire to be sealed to an eternal family. I could not imagine spending an eternity as an instant replay of my childhood.

I also spent a good deal of time torn between feeling guilty for my incorrect choices of my young adult hood, or blaming my childhood for making the incorrect choices in the first place.

Eventually, I had to learn to repent for my own bad choices because no one made them but me. But I also had to do a lot of forgiving. The repenting was much easieer than the forgiving part, and you may also find that to be so.

You see we can repent to Heavenly father and if we believe in his plan we know when we choose to repent and choose the correct path, we are forgiven. But forgiving those who have wronged us can be even more difficult. For one thingm, we cannot control the actions of another person, and they may not even believe they have wronged us. Then we may not want to forgive them. Or they may not want to accept our forgiveness.

Another part of the forgiveness process is to let go and forgive ourselves. No excuses. If we are repenting and expecting Heavenly Father to forgive us, then if we don't forgive ourselves we are defeating the purpose.

When it comes to the Temple marriage, although my situation is different as I was sealed to my second husband when I eventually remarried. But I have a close friend that was married in the Temple when she was young and had three kids, and they divorced. She eventually married another man and was unsealed from the first husband to be sealed to the second and they had a child together. She is now divorced from the second husband. Her children are now grown and after a period of being single, she is engaged to be married again. I have no idea how all the sealing and unsealing works and who is sealed to whom when we are all gone from this world. But I think it is Heavenly Fathers plan and he will figure it all out just fine.

In the meantime, we can do the very best of our abilities to be as worthy as we can be in the sight of God. We cannot be worthy for someone else, nor can we make someone else worthy; not our spouses, children or anyone else.

So my suggestion is to pray, read the scriptures, attend church, be involved in Relief Society, ask for a home teacher, and a visiting teacher, and surround yourself with other Saints who will help to strengthen you throughout your challenges.

Set as good of an example to be a loving and nurturing wife and mother. Your husband and children will need to become responsible for their choices but when they see you living in peace and harmony within yourself, some of it may just rub off on them a little. But don't be impatient if it doesn't all happen when you want it to.

I wish you love and all the joyful blessings that we all know Heavenly Father has planned for us even when we don't see it yet or understanding how it is all going to work out.

[Distrust]

Doc,

Irregardless of whether the issue of sin is one you committed or one that someone else committed against you, God is not the one that made the sin happen, so why would you miss-trust God. I think when anyone encounters dunhappiness or dissappointment within themselves in with another, God becomes the scapegoat. Why would God let this happen. Or why won't God answer my prayers.

This is not about God, nor is it about you regaining trust in God. God is the one constant in your life and will be available to you when you are truly available to him.

It appears that the one you must regain trust in is yourself. You have free agency. You must make the choice to trust yourself that you will be able to make the be able to make the right decision.

Prayer, reading your scriptures and attending church will help to give you the strength to overcome the negative things in your life. Then when you have gained the strength to open your heart and clear your mind you will be ready to listen to that still small voice of the Holy Ghost so that you can be guided to make choices that will bring you joy and happiness.

While you are gaining sttrength you will need to repent of your sin if it is a sin you committed. If instead it was a sin committed against you, then ask for the strength to forgive.

Then spend some time thinking of the blessings you do have. Sometimes we get so caught up in a single issue that is clouding our mind that we cannot see the incredable beauty of life in it's most simple form or most minute detail.

In the meantime, there is no need to miss-trust God. God hasn't gone anywhere. He is as close to you as your own breathing. You may have some difficult challenges ahead, but even when you lose your awareness of God, he doesn't lose his awareness of you and you are never alone.

When you lose trust, you may also want to think of Jesus when he was prsaying in the garden, and how he trusted Heavenly father even when he was sweating blood from the agony of the sins of the entire world. Consider the sin you are dealing with and imagine Jesus bearing yours and the millions upon millions of other sins as well. He went through unspeakable pain. And yet he trusted his purpose, and he trusted Heavenly Father even at the darkest moments. And all this to pay the price for all including your sin and your burdens.

You may not see it yet, but there are amazing things that God has planned for you in this world and the next. There will come a time when what you are going through now will seem insignificant.

You are here to learn and progress. I often think of the challenges of life as an incredible education that happens to have a very high tuition. Your great challenges of today will give you strength, knowledge and the ability to overcome things you never thought you were capable of, if you just let it.

[Does the LDS faith offend the Jewish?]

Well here is my stand on the entire thing.

I am Jewish by heritage and LDS by faith. I do not have any known immediate biological family members that were murdered in the holocaust, but I do have a number of very dear friends both still living and now dead that survived the holocaust and knew the pain and suffering of seeing their own beloved family members murdered (including young children). Jews are not merely a religion, they are a people - a Nation no matter what their choise of religion. That is perhaps what you don't quite understand Vort. Jews regardless of their religious affiliation consider all Jews their "people" and they are still grieving over the holocaust victims because they view these victims as their people i.e. a very part of ourselves. They are not just a part of our National history, they are a part of our very identity.

I will not under any circumstances do any ordinance on a Jew (especially a holocaust victim who either died in the holocaust or who was a victim that survived and dies later) UNLESS that person agrees to it before their death. I take this stand for perhaps no other reason than pure respect.

I do not believe that ordinances are performed to make anyone a Mormon, BUT the ordinances are done with the belief that the deceased on the other side is aware of the ordinance, and can accept it or not. But since we as Mormons assume they are aware of it (so they can accept or decline), then they are conscious of it So it isn't like well we are just "praying over their names."

Consider this analogy. Suppose an LDS man and woman experienced the joy of having a beloved baby boy and they believed that after death there is a state consciousness with the ability to accept of decline an ordinance. We don't know to what degree of consciousness there would be and if it came with emotions and to what degree. But there has to be emotion in play in the afterlife because if there were not, what would be the point of families reuniting. We believe that we continue to learn and progress so it stands to reason their will be emotion as well as memory of the life we left on earth.

So on with the analogy. Suppose the beloved child of the LDS couple was murdered BECAUSE he was the child of an LDS family? What incredible grief that would bring to the parents and loved one's of that child. The hope to keep the family going was to meet up some day in the afterlife with their child.

So along comes a sect of Jewish people that believe that in order to have a covenent with God, all male children must be circumcised; and this sect of Jews believe in circumcising by proxy.

Now as an LDS parent we can say, well let them do as they may because I don't believe that stuff. But they DO believe there is a life and consciousness after death. Are you telling me that if an LDS couple knew that their murdered child was being subjected to an ordinance that you did not believe in, no one would be offended? And if they felt offended or negative emotions about such a thing, would they be ok with being called a bigot because they did not wish their baby's name to be submitted to this sect of people to perform their ordinance on their beloved child that they are still grieving the loss of.

If you have ever had a family member or dear loved one die by violent or unnatural means, the grief passes all human understanding. When people grieve, the one thing they have to hang onto is the memory, the identity of themself with the deceased and the hope for carrying on that identity into the next life.

I am glad that you fully agree with the mandate that we perform no ordinance work for Holocaust victims unless we are related to them or have permission of their relatives.

Quote" The Church doesn't call the bigots out on their ignorance, and wisely so. But I'm not the Church." End Quote

The best words of the final sentence of your quote Vort is AND WISELY SO. The church's wisdom comes from revelation as we all know. And the curch finds it wise not to call the Jews bigots. The church treats the situation with wisdom and tolerance because it is the right thing to do. And since the final word of the church comes down from divine relevation then essentially the wisdom comes directly from God.

[As man is, god once was...]

Quote "I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess." End Quote

Please do not take this as talking down to you but how much research can you possibly have done? You are 21 years old. Why do you need to speed up the process? What is the big hurry? Perhaps it is the instant gratification mentality of your generation.

There are many many wonderful blessings awaiting you, and yes I beleive that with much study, prayer and putting God's word into practice that we can become perfect. We have an eternity to accomplish that though. We are not talking about doing a little research and viola we suddenly become perfect like God. Enjoy your life, study, read, pray, gain a testimony and then study, read, pray and keep on progressing. It is a work in progress and there is no high speed quick fix way to accomplish Heavenly Father's plan. All these things will be revealed to you in Heaven;ly Father's time, not ours, so meanwhile make sure your mind and heart is in the right place and enjoy the journey.

[Free Speech vs Privacy]

I had this discussion with an attorney family member and although the father of the unborn child acted in extremily poor taste and is morally wrong to lash out as he did; from a legal standpoint he was neither guilty of defamation of charactor (assuming the abortion occurred and it is the truth), nor does it legally infringe on privacy because obviously the abortion was made known to the father of the unborn child, therefore it was not private knowledge that the abortion occurred.

Now there would be legal liability if the following things had occurred:

1. The Doctor or medical staff involved with performing the abortion disclosed the information since they would have been bound to privacy of the woman's medical procedures. If the women told the finace about the abortion it is one thing, but if he found out from the medical staff, it's another issue alltogether.

2. Had the man mentioned the woman's name on a billboard with intent to cause her emotional harm and she were able to prove how she was damaged emotionally (stress), or if she were fired from her work or suffer a loss of some kind due to his action then she may have grounds for a civil suit against him.

3. The terminology, "Defamation of charactor" suit would not hold up though because since abortions are legal and assuming it is true that she had an abortion, she cannot be defamed for something that she chose to legally do.

4. In some cases if the billboard implied who the person was (for instance if he accused his girlfriend, wife etc: and it was a small community where it is assumed that readers knew who the person was, she still may have a harrassment case.

As my old Jewish granny would have said, Be glad to get rid of him - he's no mensch - he's a schmuck.

Just as a foot note though, my personal belief is that a law should be enacted whereby the father must be notified prior to an abortion. Fathers need to be notified to sign off parental rights in adoption cases, and if the mother has the baby and keeps the child, the father is legally obligated to support the child.

[response to an anti-mormon]

All of the above may be true, however I find it both entertaining and a good way to practice rhetorical skills. In any case I respect those who choose not to engage with anti(s)

Saintish, actually I do engage in conversation with anti's- Jehovah's witnesses, Catholics, athiests, Jews, Muslem's and whoeve,r BUT the difference is that I will engage when the other person is honest as to what they are and what their agenda is.

Someone saying they are a "Mormon scholar" and then coming up with crazy comments like this doesn't even make sense.

I agree that it can be entertaining and challenging to use our rhetorical skills in debates, but the debate has to have some rational basis on both sides or else you are just trying to get across ideas to someone that is just raving on.

But hey if you are actually getting entertainment value from that, well who am I to say.

[response to an anti-mormon]

Good grief!!! My guess is this "scholar" is throwing around a bunch of big words he may not even understand to try and impress you into thinking his is as brilliant as he thinks he is.

Yep I think I would walk away from this one too.

[Construction Photos of Brigham City Temple]

Beautiful! Can wait to see it completely finished. Thanks for sharing.

[Does the LDS faith offend the Jewish?]

Sorry Vort that makes no sense. If you baptize a Jew without their permission it is not offending them, it is imposing the ordinance on them.

No Jew will require that you wear a yarmulke or anything else.

Not to mention you have spent a great deal of time calling pople ignorant, dumb, prejudice etc: Do you really think heavenly father wants you to express such contempt for people who simply want to live their lives and die as they choose. Jews do not believe in the same concept of being d@mned and all I can say is prefer to follow instructions of Jesus to judge not lest we be judged.

[Garments and returning members?????]

Ok I followed the suggestions and advice and here is the definitive answer from LDS.org in Utah.

Member numbers are necessary to purchase garments.

Members can obtain their membership numbers from their ward clerk. I received a print out which has my name, date of birth, spouses name, childrens names and parents names, and my date of baptism, endowment and sealing. It does not indicate whether a members recommend is current.

So the answer is, to purchasee garments, membership required, endowment required, recommend current not required (with the EXCEPTION of someone going to Temple for the first time thus not yet endowed, in which case they would need a temple recommend and would buy at the Temple).

Anyway, thanks for the responses. Order in and awaiting this new Carenessa II fabrication.

[Who Still Fights Against Contraception?]

I think what a married couple mutually decides in the privacy of their bedroom should stay in their bedroom among themselves.

Children need a lot more than the ability to be conceived and born. A cpuple needs to have the personal, physical, emotional and spirtual strength to raise a child properly. There are too many people that become subject to peer pressure to marry too young, have children to early etc: and it can often leave childred neglected, abused, mal noursihed and lacing in the opportunity for their own physical, emotional, educational and spiritual progression.

[Does the LDS faith offend the Jewish?]

And how, exactly, does privately doing ordinances for names on a list impose in any possible sense or degree on the Jewish religion?

Because THEY think of it as an imposition. It's a matter off common courtesy and respect.

For that matter I have a number of friends who embrace other Christian faiths or no faith at all, and they have asked me not to submit their names in the event that they die befoe I do. To me it should be their choice. That is a part of what free agency is all about.

[Inter-Faith Dialogue]

I'm not necessarily looking for either - I'm just interested in what people think about it. What you see is very interesting :) For some time now I've been thinking that Mormonism and Mainstream Christianity are not so different as certan people make tham out to be.

Sounds good to me. I'm Jewish by heritage and culture and joined the lds church a number of years ago. I will always admire things in the Jewish religion and stioll to this day celebrate some of the holidays and attend synagogue on special occasions, bar mitzvah's and community events.

One thing I always liked about Jewish culture regarding interfaith dialogue, is that they very much welcome dialogue and encourage people to question everything. Also they do not prosyltize and have no interest in converting anyone to Judaism. If someone wants to convert to Judiasm and embrace the religion they are actually encouraged to study but highly discourraged to convert until they are sure of their decision on their own free will and not because someone else convinced them to make such a decision.

Also Jews by birth (heritage and culture) that convert to other religions are no ostracized from the Jewish community. They are not considered "apostates" rather Jews that are not practicing Judiasm (the religion).

I think because of this it invites interfaith dialogue and helps to deepen a better understanding among humanity.

I think dialogue is very healthy and positive so long as it is respectful dialogue and not a debate that causes contention. The best way to enter dialogue is to create an environment of mutual respect from the beginnign and not converse with the sole intent of trying to impise your religion on others.

[Does the LDS faith offend the Jewish?]

Don't you see how it could offend someone saying somthing like that? you are taking it too personal. they don't care if we practice our beliefs they just dont want us to involve their ancestors in our beliefs.

Exactly. Jews don't care what other religions think and practice so long as it is not an imposition on their own believes or what THEY practice. They are not in the least offended by what Mormons do. They simply do not want it impsoted upon themselves (especially without their prior knowledge).

[Inter-Faith Dialogue]

I don't think there should even need to be a reason as to why one chooses to engage in interfaith dialogue.

Why not just for the sake of broadening ones mind and for the sake of education?

If a person is not strong in their particcular faith then it is up to them to search the scriptures and to pray. That is exactly what Joseph Smith did when he was not feeling so sure about what church he should join.

I find that when people are ignorant of the facts of other religions then they tend to draw conclusions that are not even true about other religions. And then the differences seem so diverse as to cause contention and even bloody wars.

When people have religious dialogue it helps to gain a better understanding of each other amd helps people gain a better respect for each otther.

If a person is weak in their faith and can be easily swayed from one church to the next, then they would not be of much benefit to the church anyway. They would just be people filling a pew on a Sabbath morning.

[Does the LDS faith offend the Jewish?]

I have great respect for the belief of Jews. I have difficulty feeling anything but contempt for those Jews who whine about vicarious baptisms. Exactly one of two things must be true:

• The baptisms do exactly what we claim, giving the dead Jews the opportunity to embrace "Mormonism" if they so choose.
• The baptisms do not do what we claim, in which case they do nothing at all.

The third possibility, that baptisms for the dead actively condemn to hell those unfortunate enough to have their names done, is so absurd that no reasonable person could believe it, and therefore is not worth discussing further.

If the Jews who whine about this admit that #1 above is true, then they also must admit that they are openly fighting against the God they claim to worship. This makes them, by definition, wrong. Thus, they are to be ignored.

If the Jews who whine about this refuse #1 and hold to #2 above, then their objections are ridiculous. Who cares of some voodoo practitioner in Haiti sprinkles holy water over representations of your dead ancestors? Let them chant all the silly spells they want; it makes no difference to my deceased loved ones. Thus, they are to be ignored.

In either case, the ultimate response is the same.

Jews are an extremily diverse people in their thinking, but I believe the vast majority that do not want to be baptized by proxy is for none of the above reasons that you site.

Jews throughout history have been hated and scattered throughout the earth to live among people and cultures that thought of them as less than human. Many Jews long before the holocaust of the 20th century were willing to die and even committed suicide at Masada rather than convert and submit to Roman rule. Jews have been subject to forced conversion to Christianity throughout the ages or suffer death if they refused.

A very strong part of Jewish culture (both religious and non-religious), is their history. And Jews are very aware that tey are the lowest numbered minority in the world. They believe that their very survival as a people is because of their faith and their tenacity.

Most Jews by religion do not believe in a literal hell so they are not concerned about being condemned because of proxy baptism.

Jews also for just a little FYI have been practicing something very similst to bpatism long before the birth of Jesus. Even today, people converting to Judaism as a religion have a ritual immersion in a Mikveh (looks a lot loke a Mormon baptismal) or in natural water like the sea.

In any event the reason is that Jews are very protective of their prople as a Nation and just don't want to feel as if they are forced to convert (in this life or the next).

Others accept the idea for a number of reasons. Some I know in my family thought it was fine that I submitted their names. I also spoke with a very dear friend who is more like a father figure to me than my own father, and I spoke with him about this. He is a holocaust survovir and lived in the death camps when he was in his early 20's. He lost his entire family, parents and simblings to the gas chambers. He is now in his nineties and I spoke to him about my beliefs and asked him if he would mind in the event that he passed befoe me that I could do this for him. His answer was, "I think I will always be a Jew dear, but if it gives you happiness and peace, then go ahead and do it."

Anyway in summary Vort, I do hope you consider your thoughts on this. If you truly respect the beliefs of the Jews as you say then you cannot respect and feel contempt at the same time. Jews are not whiners about this matter. They simply want to according to their beliefs and what they know as their truth, to preserve Judaism and the house of Israel. We ned to respect that regardless of our own beliefs.

[No Tea?]

I started another thread in general discussion about healthy /unhealthy consumption.

I have studied nutrition (not my line of work) but made the subject of health and wellness my business because aside from words of wisdom and other dietary rules, because in all honesty I am one who embraces health and wellness. No matter how spiritual, virtous or religious you are, you won't be able to live a really happy life if your spirit is dwelling in a sick body.

Ok you asked is tea good for you. The answer is yes and no. The tannins in tea can draw out infection, and green tea varieties do contain high amounts of antioxidants that fight aging, cancer and many illnesses. But the unhealthy part is the stimulant cafeen which can over time have a very negative effect and cause adrenal insuffucency and a crash to your immunie system which defeats the entire purpose of those healthy antioxidants.

Decafenated green tea is possibly an option, but you can also suppliment Green Tea's good components EGCG by taking a capsule from a health food store. Or better yet you can get tons of healthy antioxidants from fresh fruit and veggies and they satifsy hugder and taste better too.

Natural herbal teas (tons of flavors) can also have health benefits.

The same goes for the healthy antioxidant Resveratrol found in red wine. It is also present in grape juice which is tastier with no alcohol, effects.

The LDS church follows the words of wisdom to become Temple worthy. I think a part of this is the discipline and obedience that is equally important as the reasons. Heavenly father created our bodies and in his perfect wisdom knows what our bodies need and do not need to keep us in good health both spiritually and physically.

[Words Of Wisdom & Common Sense Decisions]

Ok I decided to start this new thread because it is of utmost interest to me, and I would love to have a nice exchange of thoughts and ideas.

I came across this article regarding the churchs beliefs about our bodies being the Temple of the Holy Spirit: Why is it important for us to take care of our bodies? Why are our bodies called temples of God in the Bible? | Mormon.org

Quote: "Man is composed of two parts: a mortal body, and an immortal spirit. The Lord calls our body a ‘tabernacle’ or a ‘temple’ since it is the temporary residence of our eternal spirit (see Book of Mormon, Mosiah 3:5; 1 Corinthians 3:16). Since the spirit and the body together are the soul of man (see Doctrine and Covenants 88:15), what affects one affects the other. By taking care of our bodies we make our “tabernacles” an acceptable house for our spirits. By defiling our bodies with drugs, tobacco, or unwholesome foods it affects our spirits adversely." Endquote

So here are a few of my thoughts on this:

Among LDS members there is a lot of talk among members and on forums such as this about the law of chastity and the importance of modesty. I agree with the churches views, but sometimes I feel like members concentrate on one church teaching and place the other teachings on a degree of lesser importance.

Agreed members also strive to keep the Words of Wisdom, but often so in a way that the thinking is if it isn't written specifically the rest is left for interpretation, or perhpas is hardly considered at all.

But I have to think that if the church teaches us that there is a very important purpose in coming to earth and receiving an earthly body, and if our bodies are tabernacles housing our spirits, and if we are supposed to care for our bodies and treat them with respect then why do we not take it more seriously.

Yes as Mormons we do not consume alcohol, illicit drugs, coffee, tea, and tobacco. But I have to wonder why equally harmful things like excessive sugarm salt, fats, additives and many junk foods are consumed by Mormons and why many junk food addictions are not considered to be as serious as addiction to anything else like tobacco, alcohol and drugs.

As my name implies, I am by heritage and culture Jewish and was taught to follow the Kosher dietary laws. In Jewish teachings, there were no reasons that God told us what to eat and what not to eat. Rather it was about discipline and obedience.

But now in the 21st century science has discovered why certain foods are very unhealthy for our bodies. Rather than going down the list in Leviticus, I'll just use pigs for example. They are not healthy for Jews, Gentiles, Catholics, Muslems or Latter Day Saints or anyone else.

pig is a real garbage gut. It will eat anything including urine, excrement, dirt, decaying animal flesh, maggots, or decaying vegetables. They will even eat the cancerous growths off other pigs or animals. he meat and fat of a pig absorbs toxins like a sponge. Their meat can be 30 times more toxic than beef or venison. When eating beef or venison, it takes 8 to 9 hours to digest the meat so what little toxins are in the meat are slowly put into our system and can be filtered by the liver. But when pork is eaten, it takes only 4 hours to digest the meat. We thus get a much higher level of toxins within a shorter time.

Unlike other mammals, a pig does not sweat or perspire. Perspiration is a means by which toxins are removed from the body. Since a pig does not sweat, the toxins remain within its body and in the meat. Pigs and swine are so poisonous that you can hardly kill them with strychnine or other poisons.

Now I have to wonder that if our bodies are Tabernacles, why on earth would we eat a pig?

(My thinking is God simply said don't eat it because Israel of that time would have never understood the metabolism and unhealthy habits of pigs).

Today all we have to do is google on the web and discover that excessive sugar, salt and processed foods are very unhealthy yet people feed them more and more in higher qualtities to their children at younger and younger ages. Childhood obesity and diabetes and heart disease are on the rise and are developing at younger ages with every decade.

Parents say that their children "like" the sugary, salty processed foods. But research is showing that most preschool children develop a taste for salt, sugar and fat at home, and quickly learn which types of brand-name fast foods and sodas meet these preferences.

I have to say that I cringe when I sit behind a family in church and children that are barely able to walk and their toddler siblings are munching away in sacrament meeting on cocoa puffs and sugary processed junk "treats" to keep them quiet.

So a question I am posing is this: If it is important to honor our bodies and follow the laws of chastity, if it is also essential to follow the words of wisdom, is it not equally important to follow our gift of common sense and take the time to become fully aware of what is good and wht is not good for ourselves and our children so that our bodies can truly be healthy tabernacles for our spirits to reside within?

[uninterested wife.]

JamesKnightwell,

It looks like you need to find a good support network and the church is a good place to start. If your wife won't talk to the Bishop, you can may want to seek counsel with him, and surround yourself with people that may be able to help put things into perspective.

I cannot comment on the root of the problem, but it may run deeper than you think. You mentioned Quote "she has started bringing up things that I did years ago I thought were dead and buried(nothing major didn't follow through on what i said i would do etc. lose a few pounds etc)" End Quote. You may have thought these issues were long buried but if she is bringing them up, they may not be as buried for her as they are for you, so that is something that will need addressing between the two of you.

Again I do not know you but as a general rule, often people that say they make a promise to "lose a few pounds" are really dealing with more than just "a few pounds". Whether it is weight loss or any other challenge in your life, perhaps you can work on yourself which may give you the opportunity for greater health and better confidence. This in turn may result in your wife re-evaluating her feelings for you.

Another suggestion is that although your wife wants nothing to do with the church; is it possible that you and your wife can together maintain a social life comprised of church members that can help to show the example of the value of family.

In any event work on becoming the best person you can be. If the result of that is a renewed and happier marriage that is wonderful. And if it means only that you become a healthier more confident person, and your wife take another direction, at least you can know you gave it your all.

I wish you all the best.

[Hello, I'm Nancy.]

Welcome Nancy,

I agree that if you are investigation the LDS Church Mormon.org or LDS.org or even requesting a missionary to visit are options to get accurate answers to what you may be seeking about the church.

I have not been on this forum for very long but have found some great conversations. Chime in and share your story.

I am alsways a little curious about when one saus they are athiest why they are referring to as I have found it to be a variable term. Do you mean no belief on God or no belief in organized relision. Just curious. Looking forward to seeing you on the forum.

[A field trip to Hooters]

Oh...and this may well be generational. My age group (came of age in early 80s) was rebelling against the 60s, by going for the resurrection of social conservatism. :-)

Wow do I hear you there. My kids (mid 30's to early 40's) were in that 80's generation and huge change it was from what I remember in the 60's.

The Hooters thing I am sure is an age difference. Ladies my age tend to chuckle if your huhhy's take a second look at a pretty young girl and just give them a nod and let the old guy dream a little. Our husbands cannot afford those girls anyway and they know it.

As for the other cultures, we were in Martinique last month and there was a couple that could have been old enough to be MY parents (OR maybe the excessive sun exposure only made them appear that way) LOL But there they were strolling along the beach in all their glory. Obviously European tourists,and certainly not attractive but well each to their own. Not our cup of tea but other European kids on the beach thought nothing of it. It's all relative I guess.

[Hospitality]

My home has a pretty open door policy with friends and those that I am close witth and that visit often are comfortable just coming in and sitting whereever they choose and help themselves to the fridge.

If it a more formal get together with friends that are not as close or more of friendly acquaintences, then I offer them a place to sit and offer a choice of drinks available which for us is primarily sugur free lemonaide, juices and iced herbal teas. And Ill put out a plate of fruits or veggies or nut breads etc.

Just my opinio but I find if we get too fussy on the ediquette, it compromises the comfortable atmosphere and free flow of conversation.

I do agree with the poster above that Hospitality per se is not one of the core chuch teachings.

A quick side note about inviting an ex when the other ex or their significant other is also invited; that should only be considered if all parties are consulted ahead of time and it is in the comfort zone of all concerned. I know a lot of people that would be fine with that (including my husband and I), but that is not the case with everyone. Always good to ask first.

[A field trip to Hooters]

Ok I will simply say that everyone is obviously different in their reactions to such things.

I am not saying Hooters is choice number one to take middle school kids on a field trip, but I also know a couple of lovely young women, one of the 2 is happily married with children and the other engaged who have put themselves through college. The one with kids is now in her mid 30's and has middle school kids and I know her husband and kids have gone there while she was working. None of them are lds but they are good religious non drinking, non smoking and people of integrity.

I do think if kids are going on a field trip their parents should have the right to know where they are going, including restaurants so they can make the choice to say yes or no. But if it's a beach field trip for middle school kids you can bet those kids will see less clothing on both men and women on the beach. And if the field trip is out of the country it is possible on a beach they could encounter no clothing at all.

Regarding, Chaplains comment about what if it is men and the mention of jealousy; perhaps it is that I am a generation older and I am pretty oblivious to all this talk of jealousy. If you have a secure loving marriage there is no need for jealousy.

Have I and my husband EVER been to Hooters. Yes. Were the waitresses beautiful of course they were. Did my husband look. I suppose so but unlikely interested since they were young enough to be his daughter or even granddaughter. If he did look would I be jealous? Absolutely not. Why? 1. I trust my husband. 2. I am very comfortable in my own skin and happy with who I am and confident enough not to worry about some young girl taking away my husband.

I would feel no different if the waiters were young men in speedos. I live near a beach and see them all the time. Not interested too young.

Besides although sex is a beautiful part of marriage, it is not the focal point of our marriage. There are many other things to do and places to go that keep our lives full and occupied.

Will we go back to Hooters? Probably not. We are health nuts and seriously the food is not fit for my dogs consumption no less humans.

I honestly think we would be better off discussing what is healthy in terms of diet, exercise, education, keeping anxiety low and healthy relationships, rather than always worrying about how someone is dressed (or undressed). Perhaps I'll start a thread on other things that to me are far more disgusting than degrees of preceived immodesty.

OK off my soapbox. Not meaning to offend. Just my 2 cents. ;o))